Talk:Poison Waters/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: SusunW (talk · contribs) 13:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Another Believer, I'll take this one. Real life is a zoo right now, so it may take me a few days to work through it. In the spirit of making the article "article as good as it can be", I'll probably ask a bunch of questions, but it's up to you whether you want to incorporate any of them. I look forward to working with you. SusunW (talk) 13:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Looking forward. Someone added a tag to the article after I nominated for Good status. I've left the tag for now because I was curious to get a third opinion. Personally, I think the entry provides readers with an appropriate level of detail re: community activities, but I'm open to adjusting as needed based on editor feedback. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I saw it, and I think that's why I picked her, because in my mind, it's all about the details, but we'll see. SusunW (talk) 15:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, please let me know if/when you believe the tag issue has been resolved. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:57, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I honestly would've removed it if I could find it, but I believe you are fine to get rid of it. SusunW (talk) 20:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Early life and education

There is very little about Poison's formative years in the article. I think it is important to understand her journey to drag.

• You might want to consider formatting the Burris link as {{Cite AV media}} because it allows you to insert the location of the statement, for example {{sfn|Burris|2021|loc=start minute 0:9:05}} and because the link to KOIN does not give a transcript, so it is otherwise impossible to confirm that the source verifies the information. If you do that, these are things that could be included (Some of these bits are also covered in Ligori and Camhi) about the journey to Kevin's identity and career:

Resolved

Birth year is missing. Several sources indicate it was 1967. Vondersmith says Kevin came to Portland in 1979 at 11 and that Poison was born when he turned 21. Ligori and Camhi say he began doing drag in 1988. (Since we know 1988 was after the birthday, it's logical that 1979 was before the birthday and simple math takes us to 1967.) I've added a template to the infobox which displays a birth date based on Vondersmith confirming the subject was 11 in 1979. Does this work for you? ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Yes, that's good. I think the age is critical to give context to people's lives. Thanks! SusunW (talk) 16:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Burris at 9:05 Kevin says he was born in Santa Monica, California. Is this correct formatting? I'm not used to the 'sfn' template but I see nothing happens when I click on the linked "Burris 2021" in the References section. Once I know correct formatting, I'll replicate elsewhere here. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC) your formatting of the AV cite is correct, but it needs to tie to {{sfn|Burris|Costello|2021|loc=0:9:05}} because of the 2 authors. I did the first instance to make sure it works properly. SusunW (talk) 17:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Thank you! I've replicated. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:46, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Father was black, mother was Native American, Burris 15:53 Added. The audio is a bit bumpy but I hear "Mexican and Native American". Do you mind confirming? I certainly don't want to include an incorrect claim re: ethnicity. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Yes, I think you are correct. Listened 3 times and had my husband listen as well, my father is black and my mother is Mexican and Native American. SusunW (talk) 17:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Great, thanks. I'll consider this resolved. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Grew up in poverty Burris 10:33  Done Does this work for you? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Yes SusunW (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Burris 9:14 Parkrose High School and community college. Ligori and Camhi say Mt. Hood Community College in Gresham. Added. Good? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC) yes SusunW (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Discovered he was gay at 18, Burris 9:50. Does this work for you? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC) yes SusunW (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC) First discovered drag scene after he graduated from high school at 18 (i.e. 1985), Burris 10:42 Does this work for you? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:27, 18 May 2022 (UTC) yes SusunW (talk) 18:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Didn't like the drag scene Burris 11:10 because he wanted to dance 11:35 and couldn't identify with the performers.
• A performance by Black drag artists led him to recognize that drag was something available to people of color Burris 12:10; "representation matters" Burris 13:05

•  Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:53, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Mentored by Rosie Waters to learn how to do drag, i.e. make-up, fashion, shopping tips, etc. Burris 14:03

•  Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:53, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Named himself after the perfume Poison and his mentor's name, Burris 16:43

•  Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Burris 17:40 First job was working at a mall

•  Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• The fact that he grew up poor and received federal, state, and local assistance is why he wanted to help others because of the help his family had gotten Burris 18:24 and 20:40 helping others is a full circle moment allows you to give back because others gave to you.
• Burris 19:35 Cascade project was Kevin's first volunteer project and he became active during the AIDs epidemic.

• The article currently says, "She has volunteered with CAP since 1988 and served on the organization's board of directors twice." I'd like to think this is sufficient (1988 implies a long collaboration but I don't think "first" is necessary). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Burris 21:40 Time is the most valuable resource you can give.

• I don't think this is worth including in a Wikipedia biography. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Burris 27:15 mental health care is important, especially in light of the political climate and pandemic of the last few years

• I don't think this is worth including in a Wikipedia biography. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

• Burris 30:20 Representing the black community and the gay community in the best way he can is important to Kevin.
• Burris 31:32 and 33:04 Drag Queen Storytime is an project Poison participates in. Available in the Portland area to give children early education he didn't have about open-mindedness and diversity.

• The article already says, "She has also read books about diversity and inclusivity to children at libraries, including Multnomah County Library's 'Drag Queen Storytimes' series in 2018." I'd like to think this is sufficient. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I think most of this is your call. I was literally just jotting things that stood out to me as I listened. I do think it's important to discuss that Kevin didn't identify with the drag community until he saw other performers who were people of color, and I also think how Poison chose her name is interesting and something that readers would want to know. SusunW (talk) 20:28, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I was addressing this bullet specifically but I'll be revisiting some of the others above. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:38, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

But the Burris link would not be considered independent secondary coverage, right? This is an interview with the subject. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Correct. There are sufficient secondary sources to verify Poison's notability and we are allowed to use primary sources for direct statements of fact. We can't interpret what Poison said, but we can say for example, Poison is of mixed black and Native American ancestry. SusunW (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Resolved

Questions: Given Mexican and Native American descent, is simply "African-American" in the lead sufficient and should we apply Category:Hispanic and Latino American drag queens to the entry? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:56, 18 May 2022 (UTC) I think that it would be more accurate, to include Afro-Latino categories. SusunW (talk) 18:02, 18 May 2022 (UTC) The one I've suggested is specifically for drag queens, so might be specific enough to apply, but I'm not sure which of Category:Afro–Latin American to include? Afro-Mexicans are "Mexicans who have heritage from Sub-Saharan Africa" and I don't think any of Category:Afro–Latin American culture apply. Please correct me if I'm wrong or overlooking something. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC) For now, I've changed to simply "American" in the introduction. I don't think mentioning ethnic background is necessary here, do you? ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Sorry. I wasn't clear. My bad. Trying to get ready for a doctor's appointment. I was just lumping the categories for typing simplicity. I do think it should have African-American drag queens and Hispanic and Latino American drag queens. American sans ethnicity is fine in the lede. I'll be back in a bit. SusunW (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Great, category added and glad you're fine with simply "American" in the lead. ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:56, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Career

Resolved

I agree with Czar that there may be too many details of specific events here. Perhaps it would be more encyclopedic to separate it into subsections of performing and volunteerism/activism? I'm not opposed to trimming detail, but I don't think separating drag from activism is appropriate because they go together. Poison Waters often fundraises via performance. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Okay, I'm fine with that, but maybe we go with a more "generic approach"? could group various like-things together. For example: She has performed in drag shows and pride events in Hillsboro, Portland, Salem, and other locations. Poison Waters has modeled in pageants and was crowned as Empress of Portland's Imperial Sovereign Rose Court in 2001. On stage, she has performed in productions like the Oregon Ballet Theatre's production of George Balanchine's The Nutcracker and Darcelle Showplace XV's musical Pageant. She has emceed trade shows, and Pride events, as far away as Vashon, Washington. The point would be not to list every event, but give a variety of the kinds of things she performs in. This says her genre is comedy. If you do this, then you can also tie her article in to specific events throughout the encyclopedia giving broader exposure by linking from the event page to her bio. Similarly, give an overview of activism, possibly not list by event, but by the types of organizations she volunteers for and is active in, i.e. fundraising for scholarships, LGBT support groups, AIDS awareness], etc. She has hosted drag bingo, drag brunch, and drag shows to raise funds for organizations like the annual benefit for the Human Dignity Coalition, etc. Poison Waters has been involved in the Drag Out the Vote campaign, Drag Queen Storytimes, Habitat for Humanities, Women's Intercommunity AIDS Resource and Camp KC (Kids Connection), etc. SusunW (talk) 18:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Ok, I've completed re-arranged the text and trimmed a bit of detail. I've also eliminated the date subheadings. Now, the content is more focused on activity by type. First, an overview of drag performance in Portland and throughout Oregon. Then, pageantry, stage and emcee work, followed by a catch-all re: reading to children at libraries and other community activities. The next paragraph is about community activism/philanthropy. The next paragraph is possibly a bit too detailed but I've kept for now because this is specific to the COVID-19 pandemic. The goal here is to demonstrate how her work in the community changed as a result of COVID-19 (online activities, public service campaign, outdoor events, Zoom, etc). Perhaps a bit more tinkering is needed, but I'd like to this is a vast improvement re: article flow. Editors can debate level of detail over time but hopefully this at least meets GA criteria. Open to further suggestions, thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:53, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Sorry for being gone so long, but you know, real life. It looks fine now, IMO. SusunW (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Thanks and no problem! I plan to add a few more things based on the above comments but I will go ahead and remove the tag for now. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Cook doesn't perform does he? I get the sense from the sources that the professional person is Poison, so I would change the first sentence of the section to "Poison Waters has been" and the second sentence to begin with "She".  Done Now only the sentence about the course he taught at Portland Community College uses "Cook". ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:51, 18 May 2022 (UTC) Thanks SusunW (talk) 18:07, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

BTW, I plan to upload photographs of Poison Waters as soon as I can get to an event in which she's performing. On my to do list! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Yay! I actually did a bit of searching this morning and could find nothing that we could upload. SusunW (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@SusunW Ok, I think I've added what I want. Please let me know if anything else is needed here. Thanks so much for the thorough review -- this article is in a better shape because of you! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Another Believer It was a pleasure working with you. I think it's a definite pass now. Good luck getting a photo for it. SusunW (talk) 13:08, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Criteria

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   The interview with Burris & Costello is not an independent source, but it seems to comply with WP:ABOUTSELF and was not relied upon for notability, but rather for details in the biography not located elsewhere.

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Tags appear appropriate. Hopefully an image of the subject will be secured.

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.