Talk:Panoplosaurini

Is it a clade or is it a tribe?

Tribes are ranked under subfamilies , but somehow it was named as an unranked clade. Magnatyrannus (talk) 02:53, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

@Magnatyrannus: Content on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. If no reliable sources call it a tribe, then it can't be called one on Wikipedia. Just because a taxon has the "-ini" suffix doesn't automatically make it a tribe. Please read this discussion if you haven't already. —Trilletrollet [ Talk | Contribs ] 08:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh thanks. Magnatyrannus (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It says that ini is typically associated with the rank of a tribe.https://peerj.com/articles/12362/ Magnatyrannus (talk) 04:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

In the article. Magnatyrannus (talk) 04:33, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The paper also says that Panoplosaurini is a new clade. Nowhere is it ever mentioned that Panoplosaurini has been or is intended to have a linneaen rank. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 00:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Tribes, families, subfamilies, etc. are also clades. Magnatyrannus (talk) 22:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

So, you want me to change every thing to a clade instead of something Linnean ranked? Magnatyrannus (talk) 02:10, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

No. The point is to have the articles follow what they are stated to be. Everything named by Madzia ea is a clade, and Madzia considers all other named they use clades. Whether we follow Madzia or other authors for older names is yet to be decided, but for this article it should not be referred to as a rank that it was never given. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 04:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Cladistic and Linneaen systems of ranking are almost mutually exclusive. Something cladistic terms do not have a "rank", they are infinitely nested without any specific importance. A tribe is not a clade, a tribe is a group, and a clade is a group. Clades are always within clades, tribes are always within subfamilies. They are terms that cannot be the same thing. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 22:57, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

They can at times be considered clades. Magnatyrannus (talk) 23:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

No they cannot. A ranked group is not a cladistic group, and vice versa. Different authors may refer to one group by rank while others consider it a clade, but they are never both a clade and ranked group at the same time. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 23:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

But a clade is a monophyletic group, and if those tribes, subfamilies, familes, etc. are monophyletic, then that means they also are clades themselves. Magnatyrannus (talk)

No. Clade is a formal term for an *unranked* group. Ranked groups are still *groups* but are not *clades*. You are treating the word clade as a vernacular term, while it is not. Clades and Families are both *groups*, but Clades are not Families and Families are not Clades in the formal use of the words. IJReid ^{{{T - C - D - R}}} 17:24, 14 January 2022 (UTC)