Talk:Pandeism/Archive 4

Revert

I reverted a rather huge section of criticism as it is completely out of proportion to the rest of the article and as such, threw the neutrality completely out of whack. The purpose of the article isn't to persuade anyone pro or con Pandeism, it is to inform them what pandeism is. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 14:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Is this how Wikipedia is supposed to work? Pardon me, but I don't think it is. Suppose a man had one leg longer than the other. It happens all the time. One leg is "out of proportion" to the other. And suppose he could have his gait fixed by wearing a brace or a lift on one side. But suppose the doctor were to say, "no, this leg is out of proportion, we are going to cut the whole thing off and call one-leggedness a neutral state of affairs." "Can't you just take the foot, doc, so they're of the same length?" "No, no, going to cut it all off, in the name of neutrality." So Pandeism is a religious viewpoint. It's been around for a few hundreds of years, but has never really attracted a great deal in the way of support. And why not? The Lord has told us, Mark 13:22, there will be false messiahs and false prophets. 2 Peter 2:1, that there will be false teachers among you, they will cleverly introduce false heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them. From a Christian perspective, Pandeism is such a clever heresy. It has to date largely failed as a viewpoint. Nevertheless it has drawn some well-pointed criticism, which has by coincidence or design come from those within Christian apologetics. Some of this was added to the article but then summarily removed. According to NaturaNaturans: "Sorry, but this article is about a broad conception of God that does not warrant a 'criticism' section. It is clearly not a Christian conception of God, nor is it a Muslim conception and so on." Is that so? I would be surprised if it were a rule that broad conceptions are immune to criticism, or that Christian criticism must be excluded if it is not a criticism of a Christian conception of God. I would be equally surprised if it were a rule that any amount of criticism were prohibited from appearing in the article because any amount of criticism would be disproportionate to what good can be said of the subject. Suppose, then, we were to ask, not, "is criticism disproportionate" but rather, "how much criticism is proportionate?" and then add or return to this article whatever amount of criticism is indeed "proportionate" to this article. I would submit that the amount that is appropriate is "all of it" but I am reasonable and willing to bend so far as to say something less than all, but not "nothing." or am I not being reasonable in this? Come, and let us reason together. Balmoralan (talk) 21:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

The two sources of 'criticism' you are inputing are not even experts on this subject. Even if they were (and they are not) it would be debatable why a criticism section from an authority of any particular opposing faith is necessary or helpful for a God concept article. NaturaNaturans (talk) 07:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Your second source is an answer to a question on a website with a misspelling in the first sentence and an initial statement: "I am not an expert on this philosophy, but my guess is..." This citation is garbage. NaturaNaturans (talk) 07:54, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

• To answer your first question "Is this how Wikipedia is supposed to work?", then the answer to that question is a resounding Yes. Please read WP:BRD. I didn't read the rest, too long, seemed like soapboxing. Please keep it on topic. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 12:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

A most remarkable discovery.

In a previous discussion a contributor mentioned a book Welt- und Lebensanschauungen hervorgegangen aus Religion, Philosophie und Naturerkenntnis, published 1910 by Professor Max Bernhard Weinstein (1852-1918). This book is in the public domain by any applicable regime, having been published in Germany 103 years ago and its author having died 95 years ago. I was able to borrow a copy of the book long enough to scan the whole of it as a PDF, such PDF now being hosted at the Internet Archive -- http://archive.org/details/WeinsteinWeltUndL -- which repository created text and djvu and other versions as well. I grant that the text version generated from my PDF scan is pretty awful, some sections acceptable, but many illegible. But that aside, this work contains amongst its pages of discussion of religion and philosophy what may well be the most comprehensive discussion of Pandeism ever set to print prior to the Twenty-First Century -- about 28 pages of its ~500 page total includes discussion of Pandeism, especially the chapter on Pandeism starting on page 227 of the book. If necessary I have some sharper scans of individual sections, having initially scanned the book into 16 PDF files, of between 10-16 MB apiece, each file being about 32 pages of the book (as some degradation of quality came about with the combination of these individual PDF files into one larger file for uploading). Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 04:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Please consider uploading to the German version of wikisource.org [1]. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I proposed to do precisely that, but it seems the local gatekeepers of the Wiki find the Internet Archive PDF scan to be of too poor a quality for Wiki to bother with, as per http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wikisource_Diskussion:Projekte#Welt-_und_Lebensanschauungen_hervorgegangen_aus_Religion.2C_Philosophie_und_Naturerkenntnis. A disappointment. Perhaps I shall have better luck with Project Gutenberg. DeistCosmos (talk) 21:29, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

While I await the settling of objections from the German Wikisourcians and Project Gutenbergians, here is a selection of most of the quotes about Pandeism in the book, and their quick and dirty Google translations.

Max Bernhard Weinstein, Welt- und Lebensanschauungen hervorgegangen aus Religion, Philosophie und Naturerkenntnis, 1910.

PAGE 121

Es ist also nicht richtig, wenn die Anschauungen der Chinesen denen der Naturvölker gleichgesetzt werden, vielmehr gehören sie eigentlich dem Pandeismus statt dem Pananimismus, an, und zwar einem dualistischen.

So it is not correct when the views of the Chinese which the indigenous peoples are equated, but they actually belong to the Pandeism instead of the Pananimism on, namely a dualistic.

PAGE 141

Wir kommen zu der letzten Klasse von Gottheiten, zu den Begriffsgottheiten. Es versteht steh von selbst, daß je höher die Gedanken von den Gottheiten steigen — ohne daß diese Gottheiten in das All selbst einverleibt werden, was der Pandeismus vollbringt, dessen Betrachtung später folgt —, diese um so mehr der irdisch-menschlichen Eigenheiten, Eigenschaften entkleidet werden.

We come to the last class of deities to the notion deities. It goes stand by itself, that the higher the thoughts of the gods rise - without these deities are incorporated into the All itself what the Pandeismus accomplishes its analysis follows later - they stripped the more the earthly-human characteristics, properties are.

PAGE 155

So wird es sich wohl um eine Urmaterie in Verbindung mit einem Urgeist handeln, was der pandeisierenden Richtung der ägyptischen Anschauungen (S. 228) entspricht.

So it will probably be a primary matter in connection with an original spirit, which is the direction of the Egyptian pandeistization views (p. 228).

PAGE 213

Wir werden später sehen, daß die Indier auch den Pandeismus gelehrt haben.

We will see later that the Indians have also taught the Pandeism.

PAGE 223

Der Buddhismus scheint die absolute Unsterblichkeit auf diese Seele zu beschränken, vermutlich auch der Wischnuismus, soweit er Pandeismus ist (S. 220 f.).

Buddhism seems to limit the absolute immortality of this soul, and probably the Vaishnavism unless it is Pandeism (S. 220 f.).

PAGE 227

DRITTES KAPITEL. Pandeistische und panpsychistische Anschauungen.

25. Pandeistische Anschauungen.

Wenn auch nur durch einen Buchstaben (d statt th), unter­scheiden wir grundsätzlich Pandeismus vom Pantheismus.

CHAPTER III. Pandeistic and panpsychistic views.

25. Pandeistic views.

Even if only by a letter (d in place of th), we fundamentally differ Pandeism from Pantheism.

PAGE 228

Aber bei den Ägyptern soll sich der Pandeismus auch vollständiger ausgedrückt finden.

But the Pandeism will also find complete words with the Egyptians.

PAGE 229

Diese und ähnliche Angaben zeigen allerdings, daß die Ägypter auch einer pandeistischen Anschauung sich genähert haben.

These and similar information but to show that the Egyptians have a pandeistically intuition approached.

Entschiedener tritt Pandeismus bei den Indiern hervor.

Decided occurs Pandeism out at the Indians.

PAGE 231

Pandeistisch ist, wenn der Eleate Xenophanes (aus Kolophon um 580-492 v. Chr.) von Gott gesagt haben soll: "Er ist ganz und gar Geist und Gedanke und ewig", "er sieht ganz und gar, er denkt ganz und gar, er hört ganz und gar."

It is Pandeistic when the Eleate Xenophanes is quoted as saying (from the colophon to 580-492 BC) of God: "He is utterly mind and thought and forever", "he looks altogether, he thinks entirely he hears altogether."

Und das gehörte dem Pandeismus an; wenn nicht Aristoteles recht hat, wonach die Gottheit später entstanden sei als die Kräfte, die den Sphairos sich in die wirkliche Welt umwandeln ließen (Zwietracht und Streit).

And that was one of the Pandeism, if not Aristotle has quite what the Godhead is created later than the forces which are converted into the real world to let Sphairos (discord and strife).

PAGE 231-32

Namentlich in der späteren Zeit, als durch die Römer ein unabwendbares Verhängnis über die Mittelmeerwelt hereinbrach und die Gemüter bedrückte, macht sich dieses Zurückgehen auf die Religion bemerkbar, und wir finden vollständig ausgebildete pandeistische Lehren, die mit Emanismus und Theosophie zuletzt in das Mystische übergreifen und ihren Einfluß bis in die Neuzeit hinein fühlbar machen.

Especially in the later period, when the Romans broke an inevitable doom over the Mediterranean world and the minds of oppressed, this going back makes the religion noticeable, and we find fully trained Pandeistic lessons that last spread with Emanismus and Theosophy in the mystical and make their influence felt until well into modern times.

PAGE 233

Dieser Pandeismus, der von Chrysippos (aus Soloi 280-208 v. Chr.) herrühren soll, ist schon eine Verbindung mit dem Emanismus; Gott ist die Welt, insofern als diese aus seiner Substanz durch Verdichtung und Abkühlung entstanden ist und entsteht, und er sich strahlengleich mit seiner Substanz durch sie noch verbreitet.

This Pandeism you seek from Chrysippus (from Soli 280-208 BC) originate, is already a connection to Emanationism; God is the world, insofar as this is the result of its substance by compression and cooling and results, and he to radiate the same with its substance by it or spread.

Der stoische Pandeismus ist namentlich darin ein erklärter Emanismus, daß auch die Götter sich nur als Äußerungen und Ausflüsse des Welt-Gott (Zeus) darstellen wie die Seelen.

The Stoic Pandeism is especially in a declared Emanationism that even the gods are only manifestations and emanations of the world as God (Zeus) as the souls.

PAGE 234

Die späteren Schüler der platonisierenden Pythagoreer und der pythagorisierenden Platoniker schlossen sich zum Teil diesem Pandeismus an.

The later students of the Platonic Pythagoreans and Platonists pythagorisierenden joined this part Pandeism.

PAGE 234-35

Pandeistische Andeutungen finden sich selbstverständlich auch bei vielen anderen Völkern.

Pandeistic hints can be found naturally in many other nations.

PAGE 235

Das klingt pandeistisch, kann jedoch auch metaphorisch gemeint sein, wie wir ja ähnliche Aussprüche von Gott tun.

Sounding pandeistic, but can also be metaphorical, as we indeed similar sayings of God do.

Die weiteren Betrachtungen über pandeistische Anschauung schließen sich an die in den nächsten Abschnitten zu besprechenden Lehren an.

Further considerations about Pandeistic intuition adjoin to be discussed in the next sections teachings.

26. Panpsychistische Anschauungen; Hylopsychismus, Hylozoismus.

Was übrig bleibt folgt wie von selbst dem Pandeismus, und ist im Grunde nur durch Seele und Gott verschieden.

26. Panpsychistic views; Hylopsychism, hylozoism.

What remains as follows of itself the Pandeism, and is different only by soul and God basically.

Und wie im Pandeismus von Gott den Dingen nur nach Maßgabe ihrer Stellung in der Welt zukommt, so auch von der Seele.

And as in Pandeism of God belongs only to things according to their position in the world, so also the soul.

PAGE 236

So gewinnen wir einen, wie man ihn auch nennt, Hylopsychismus (Materie) oder Hylozoismus, der dem Pandeismus nur so weit entspricht, als dieser reiner Hylodeismus ist und Gott außerhalb der Materie nicht weiter gesucht wird.

So we win one, as it is also called, Hylopsychismus (matter) or hylozoism corresponding to the Pandeism only so far as this is pure Hylodeismus and God will not be sought outside of matter.

PAGE 254:

Verband der Pandeismus Gott mit der Welt, so schließt die Theosophie umgekehrt die Welt an Gott an. Gleichwohl neigt sie meist zu einem gewissen Pandeismus, wofür wir manche Beispiele kennen lernen werden.

Association of Pandeism God with the world, Theosophy includes conversely the world to God. However, it usually tends to a certain Pandeism, which we will get to know some examples.

PAGE 258:

Ja, ihre Lehre ging bei Vielen in den schon behandelten Pandeismus über, wenn auch die Materie mit der Gottheit ver­ bunden wurde.

Yes, her teaching went on at many in the already covered Pandeism, although the matter with the Godhead was a related party.

PAGE 261:

Die Lehre ist bei vielen ihrer Anhänger in einen Pandeismus und eine Theosophie (Arif) übergegangen.

The teaching is in many of its followers into a Pandeism and theosophy (Arif) passed.

PAGE 284:

Freilich bleibt es bei diesem absoluten, und ja auch nicht zu durchdringenden, Pandeismus nicht.

Of course, it does not remain in this absolute, and also not to be penetrated, Pandeism.

PAGE 299:

Scotus ist also weder Pandeist noch Emanist, er steht einfach auf dem Boden der Bibel.

Scotus is neither Pandeist nor Emanist yet he just stands on the foundation of the Bible.

PAGE 300

Der Begründer dieses mittelalterlichen Mystizismus ist, obwohl vor ihm schon Anselm von Canterbury (in Italien 1033 geboren) sich als ein halber Pandeist zeigte, der Deutsche (?) Hugo von St. Victor (gestorben 1140).

The founder of this medieval mysticism, although (born in Italy in 1033) before him, Anselm of Canterbury showed than half Pandeist, the German (?) Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1140).

PAGE 303

Andere Ganz- oder Halbmystiker, wie den Alanus (gegen 1200), seinerzeit ein großes Kirchenlicht und für die unseligen Waldenser von verhängnisvoller Bedeutung, den Bonaventura (1221 im Kirchenstaate geboren), der eine Reise des Geistes zu Gott geschrieben hat und stark pandeistische Neigungen zeigt, den Franzosen Johann Gersan (zu Gersan bei Rheims 1363 geboren) usf., übergehen wir, es kommt Neues nicht zum Vorschein.

Other full-or half-mystic, as the Alanus (around 1200), at the time a big church light, and for the unfortunate Waldenses of fateful importance to Bonaventure (1221 born in the States of the Church), who has written a journey of the mind to God and strong pandeistic inclinations shows, Frenchman Johann Gersan (to Gersan at Rheims born 1363), etc., we go, there is nothing new to light.

PAGE 306

Er ist bis zu einem gewissen Grade Pandeist. Gott schafft die Welt nur aus sich (de nullo alio creat, sed ex se); indem er alles umfaßt, entfaltet er alles aus sich, ohne doch sich dabei irgend zu verändern.

It is up to a certain extent Pandeist. God creates the world only to (de nullo alio creat, sed ex se), by including everything, he unfolded himself from everything, but without thereby changing anything.

PAGE 307

Einer pandeistischen Anschauung ist sie so gemäß wie einer rein physischen.

A pandeistic view of how it is a purely physical.

PAGE 321

Also darf man vielleicht glauben, daß das ganze System eine Erhebung des Physischen aus seiner Natur in das Göttliche ist oder eine Durchstrahlung des Physischen durch das Göttliche; beides eine Art Pandeismus.

So you may perhaps believe, that the whole system is a survey of the physical into the Divine nature of his or irradiation of the physical through the Divine, both of a kind Pandeism.

PAGE 336

Dieser Dualismus geht dann in einen solchen zwischen Gott und Welt über; und er ist wenigstens insoweit pandeistisch, als Gott in den geistigen sofern es sich um Vorgänge handelt.

This then goes into such a dualism between God and the world over, and he is at least insofar pandeistic, in the spiritual as long as it is for God's operations.

PAGE 338

Wie er die Seele stoisch betrachtet, so hat er sich im Grunde auch eine Art Pandeismus zurecht gelegt, indem Gott zwar von allen Dingen verschieden, aber doch nicht von allen Dingen abgetrennt oder geteilt sein soll.

As he considered the soul stoically, as he has rightly placed basically a kind Pandeism by God indeed different from all things, but should not be separated or divided from all things.

PAGE 343

Sie ist aber auch allen panpsychistischen und pandeistischen Anschauungen inhärent.

But it is also all panpsychical and pandeistical beliefs inherent.

PAGE 346

Seltsam ist, daß, obwohl er selbst pandeistische Neigungen verrät, die außerordentliche Philosophie seines geistesgewaltigen Glaubensgenossen Spinoza ihm so zuwider war, daß der Kampf gegen die Meinung, sein Freund Lessing sei in den letzten Lebensjahren Spinozist gewesen, ihm das Herz brach und ihn früh ins Grab senkte.

Is strange that, although he betrays pandeistic inclinations, the extraordinary philosophy of his spiritual huge coreligionist's Spinoza was so repugnant to him that the fight against the opinion of his friend Lessing had been a Spinozist in the last years, broke his heart and him early in the grave lowered.

Im Grunde steckt schon hier ein Stück Pandeismus, denn die Welt ist: die Vollkommenheiten Gottes zerteilt gedacht.

Basically, this is where a piece of infected Pandeism, because the world is thought the perfections of God divided.

PAGE 389-90

Wie das auf den transzendentalen unbewußten Geist Anwendung finden soll, kann man nicht einsehen, wenn mann nicht Die ganze Lehre in die reine pandeistische Theosophie überträgt, aus dem unbewußten Geist Gott macht und aus Wille und Vorstellung zwei Manifestationen von ihm, über die er besonders schaltet.

How should this be found on the transcendental unconscious mind application, you can not see, when man does not transmit the whole doctrine in the pure pandeistic Theosophy, from the unconscious mind makes God and of will and imagination two manifestations of him, which he turned particularly.

PAGE 437

Und wo nicht solche Unentschiedenheiten herrschen wie in der wichtigsten Frage, ob die Atome auf sich selbst beruhen und die Natur ein Vieles aus diesen Einzelnen darstellt, oder ob die Natur eine absolute Einheit ist, von der noch die Atome eine Art Scheinleben haben, so daß für Eigenleben nirgend Platz und, wie im Pandeismus und Pantheismus, alles Zwang und Fatalismus ist.

And where no such indecision reign as the most important question is whether the atoms are based on himself and nature is a lot of these individuals, or whether nature is an absolute unity, yet the atoms have a kind of semblance of life by the so nowhere for life of their own place and, as in Pandeism and pantheism, everything is forced and fatalism.

---

It'd be lovely if a German speaker could look those over and tidy the translations up. Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 04:25, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

With the aid of a German-speaking friend I have added a first paragraph setting forth Weinstein's findings as to Pandeism. This one assesses ancient philosophies/philosophers. I hope soon to add a sec on paragraph of Weinstein so assessing the more medieval philosophers. DeistCosmos (talk) 05:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I have executed some additional expansion as to the Weinstein materials, especially medieval. DeistCosmos (talk) 21:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again to my German-speaking friends, I believe I have exhausted what is useful to add to this page from the remarkably thorough works of Herr Professor Weinstein. Blessings!! DeistCosmos (talk) 04:33, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

An interesting development as to the book -- Distributed Proofreaders is going to transliterate "Welt- und Lebenanschauungen hervorgegangen aus Religion, Philosophie und Naturerkenntnis". And, actually it's more than 'they're going to' -- I submitted it weeks ago and thought they weren't taking it up, and yesterday I learned they're more than halfway through it already. From what I can see of it already, there is even more discussion of Pandeism in this book than what I've already referenced here. Stay tuned!! DeistCosmos (talk) 21:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)