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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello, I will take on this nomination! Comments to follow soon. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 11:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
@UndercoverClassicist: I have completed one reading of the article. You'll find my comments below. They focus mainly on prose and clarity aspects. I will add more and do some copyediting myself later. I'm happy to hearing your objections if you have them. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 21:51, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for acting on my comments so quickly. I will do another read-through with an eye to MOS changes this afternoon, after which the article will probably be good to go. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 10:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
Are there any dates for his university studies? Modussiccandi (talk) 20:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Frustratingly not: I've included every drop of information on this subject I can get from the sources (which is to say, not a whole lot). It would be WP:OR to attempt to do so, but it's not easy to reconstruct the chronology here: Munich was clearly his 'main' academic training (and presumably his doctorate?), but the others clearly have to represent different sorts/lengths/formalities of training, and I can see no means in the (again, highly limited) sources to be any more precise than the article already is. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
It'd be better to re-word the information on Heinrich Brunn in a way that is more neutral and explains more clearly what he worked on.Modussiccandi (talk) 20:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Done - which also involved a bit of a re-work and expansion.
Does 'ephor' need to be italicised? My hunch is 'no' because it's already the anglicised version of the Greek word έφορος.Modussiccandi (talk) 20:19, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've de-italicised: my reading of MOS:ITALICS is that it's an either-way decision (basically revolving around whether the word is in common English usage), but it should be consistent, and both ephors and 'Ephor-General' read oddly to me. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ephor needs more explanation in the text. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
YDone , though it's tricky: part of the point is that ephors never really had a 'job description' in this period, and Kavvadias was at any rate the first of them. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
We need a very short introduction to Pausanias (e.g. 'the Greek travel writer'). Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Introduce Valerios Stais (and all other scholars mentioned later. I saw you did this for some, so it won't be that much work). Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think this is done - would appreciate fresh eyes to see if I've missed any. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 18:46, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you, I will do another read through later! Modussiccandi (talk) 19:06, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I would do away with 'Homeric' and give a short explanation of what exactly this means. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The specific word "Homeric" is important in this context: firstly, it's Kavvadias' own word for what he was doing, and secondly it's about the (then considered obvious, now considered highly dodgy) assumption that a) the Homeric poems are historical and b) that they 'happened' in the Late Bronze Age and so that c) sites from the LBA can be called 'Homeric'. I've added an EFN and clarification that Kavvadias used the term to frame (and justify) his 'research questions'. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps reconsider the use of 'that' in when he discovered the two small Mycenaean tholos tombs at Kokkolata. It seems as if readers should somehow know what these are. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I would consider breaking the sentence before footnote 21 into two shorter ones for ease of reading. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think kouros/kore can be left without italics since the terms have for some time been used as English-language terms. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The repetition of 'ramains' in remains of an early Christian church, as well as significant remains is somewhat infelicitous. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
It might be better to leave out the word 'arrephoroi' since the linked article is poor and the explanation given on the Arrhephoria is sufficient.
I'm not sure here: changing it to 'used during the Arrhephoria' removes precision and information (was it the arrhephoroi who used it, or the spectators, or other participants in the ritual?) I take the point that the link isn't to a great article, but we'd leave a redlink in because that article might be written in the future (and indeed the link might encourage someone to write it): I think the same applies here. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
In its current presentation, the translation 'under the cliffs' is disorienting. Could we somehow make clear that this is a cult title? Modussiccandi (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Most of the passage on Nikolaos Balanos seems like it doesn't belong in the article. The section is already long and technical, so I think the best solution would be to move most of this sub-section to Balanos' article and replace it with one paragraph. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The key idea here is to focus on Kavvadias responsibility for/complicity in the restorations, both in that they happened at all and because of the damage that they eventually did. I've reworked it a little to try to make that point clearer: it's fundamentally Kavvadias project: his Service gave the job to the three-man committee, allowed Balanos to dominate it, and signed off on the methods he used.
Understood. I think that will do. Modussiccandi (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
has been interpreted introduces a seemingly controversial claim. Could we be more precise? Modussiccandi (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've more explicitly sourced that claim to Petrakos, who does have something of a horse in this race. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
'When' > 'where' in where Kavvadias intervened? Modussiccandi (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
It is unclear whether the 'he' in he assisted with the planning is Kavvadias or his predecessor. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps reduce the use of relative clauses in this section Modussiccandi (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Reduced.
I'll stop harping on about the numbers. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Crete would not be part of the Kingdom of Greece until 1913: is this relevant? Modussiccandi (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I think so - the point is that it wasn't Kavvadias' 'patch'/responsibility (though this gets a bit technical/academic), but was nevertheless a major moment in 'Greek' archaeology. Happy to take advice on rephrasing to make that clear. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The meaning begun with his own appointment in 1879 under Panagiotis Efstratiadis was only clear to me after two read-throughs. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I quite like that one specifically: I think it does a good job of illustrating how Kavvadias' professionalisation of the service went hand-in-hand with his own control-freakery. I've taken a few out elsewhere, though. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Do we need the inverted commas at private 'owners'? Modussiccandi (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The point is that there's competing ideas of 'ownership' here: in legal terms, because the state and the private citizens were joint owners, the latter had (in theory) the rights of usus and (probably) fructus but not (according to the state) abusus. However, because they were technically the "owners" of the antiquities, many of them acted as if they did have the complete right to dispose of their own property, and it wasn't completely agreed how being a "co-owner" with the state was materially different from just owning the thing. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure; I feel like there's two important facts here - a) that the Greek archaeological service tried (and failed) to combat unauthorised/illegal antiquities trading between 1864 and 1884, and b) that Efstratiadis was the one who did it. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Good. I will go ahead and turn that into prose. Modussiccandi (talk) 17:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Wouldn't it make sense to refer to specific named artefacts in italics? Forms like 'Aineta aryballos' look quite unatural. I'm thinking along the lines of Iliad vs. 'Iliad' here, where the former is obviously correct. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
That's the convention for works of literature, or for works with an original/VERY well-established title (e.g. Botticelli's Birth of Venus). This example is closer to e.g. 'Augustus of Prima Porta' or 'Rosetta Stone'. However, I've removed the inverted commas (following established use by e.g. Galanakis) and redlinked (which helps to clarify the relationship between the two words); the article's in my to-write pile. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for this. As you probably realised, I'm a classicist but not an archaeologist, so I'm not entirely aware of the conventions in this sub-discipline. Modussiccandi (talk) 17:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
'joint ownership' seems superfluous since it's clear what loophole is meant. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps: I think it does make it clearer, though I'm sure many readers won't need that clarification. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Since one person can only have one seat, the expression had a single seat should either go or be explained. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Changed to 'vote', as one member of a board can have multiple votes: the point is to emphasise how diluted the Director's power was vs. the former EG. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The dates seem a bit incoherent at the end: the section runs until 1912 but includes events from 1920 and 1922. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Yes - the later dates refer to his return from exile (physical and metaphorical) after 1912. Changing the dates in the section title would give a false impression of how long the latter lasted; equally, I can't see that a whole section for two lines or so is a good idea. Happy to take a suggestion here. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
We could change the name of the section into something like 'Dismissal, exile, return' and then expand the date range given. Modussiccandi (talk) 17:37, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
We want to avoid very short paragraphs as much as possible. My suggestion would be to make one section out of §2 and §3, and then to merge §1 and §4 since the thematic connection is not strong. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:39, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Moved 4 into 1, which leaves three short-ish paragraphs: I think they're now fine, as each handles a distinct theme. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The alternative names in the first sentence are quite clunky. I would only use the most common name and out all the rest in a footnote. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've removed the third, which is just a (now outdated) variation in transcription. I think the second is important, since he's very commonly referred to by that name in sources, particularly from his lifetime. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Remove 'prominent', 'varius', and 'significant'. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Kavvadias was known to be energetic, centralising and autocratic: here you're turning something presented as an opinion in the body into a fact in the lead. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
I've only given the article a cursory read through, but one thing that I noticed immediately is that a number of MOS:SANDWICH problems need to be rectified. In the context of that, I would recommend reducing the overall number of images since the article is on the verge of being over-illustrated. Modussiccandi (talk) 11:53, 10 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Some images removed. There's still some minor MOS:SANDWICH going on, but I think it's an acceptable trade-off for the value and positioning of the images that are left. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 14:05, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. Regarding the one sandwich that's left between the kore and the Persian rider, could you remedy this a bit by shortening the kore's caption? Modussiccandi (talk) 17:47, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The bibliography includes three MA theses by Pierce, Van Engelenhoven and Zachariou. WP:SCHOLARSHIP states that Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence. Is it possible to demonstrate this for these two theses? Citations in peer reviewed journals/books could be one way. Modussiccandi (talk) 11:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Pierce has got a few citations - here, here, here and here (which incorrectly says it's a PhD, but has the 2006 date, so is clearly talking about the same thesis.
Van Engelenhoven removed: better source found.
Zachariou removed. Most of her thesis is effectively translating/paraphrasing material in Greek, particularly royal decrees and the works of Vasileios Petrakos, which aren't massively accessible in English. As a result, we've mostly gone from easily-checkable English sources to practically-inaccessible (to most people) Greek ones. I wonder whether there's a case for building her back in in some places, as a sfnm with Petrakos where the two overlap? UndercoverClassicist (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
All things considered, I'd have nothing against this proposal. As you say, it would aid accessibility and thus warrants the use of WP:IAR. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
On the rolling-back (which I've now done again...) - I was editing the page while you were; I tried to resolve the conflicts manually, but didn't do a great job. I think I've manually un-undone those dehyphenations: I'll try to catch the others if not. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 17:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
In my last read through, I've added links to the captions and removed full stops in cases where only sentence fragments were used. This article is in good shape and might not be too far away from being a Featured Article given the paucity of available sources. Thank you, UndercoverClassicist, for your collaboration. I will now let the article pass through to GA status. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:42, 12 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for your time on this one - it's certainly been the most thorough GA review in which I've participated, and well beyond the call of duty. I think the article's in much better state now, and I'm certainly thinking about putting it forward for peer review with an eye on FA status in the future. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 20:24, 12 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Sounds like a good idea! Feel free to contact me should you ever bring the article to FA candidacy. All the best, Modussiccandi (talk) 20:37, 12 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.