Talk:Orthomolecular medicine/Archive 8

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Archive 9

Archive 10

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

* "kunin" :

• • http://orthomed.org/kunin.html Principles That Identify Orthormolecular Medicine: A Unique Medical Specialty by Richard A. Kunin
  • [http://www.orthomed.org/kunin.html Principles That Identify Orthormolecular Medicine: A Unique Medical Specialty]

* "wund" :

• • [http://www.orthomed.org/wund.html Orthomolecular Medicine Revisited], Wunderlich RC, Orthomolecular Medicine Online, accessed 6 Nov 2006
  • [http://orthomed.org/wund.html Wunderlich]
• "cassileth" :
  • Cassileth BR. Alternative medicine handbook: the complete reference guide to alternative and complementary therapies. New York: W.W.Norton & Co., 1998:67.
  • {{cite book |author=Cassileth, Barrie R. |title=The alternative medicine handbook: the complete reference guide to alternative and complementary therapies |publisher=W.W. Norton |location=New York |year=1998 |pages=67 |isbn=0-393-04566-8 |oclc= |doi=}}
• "Jukes1990" :
  • {{cite journal | author = Jukes, T.H. | year = 1990 | title = Nutrition Science from Vitamins to Molecular Biology | journal = Annual Review of Nutrition | volume = 10 | issue = 1 | pages = 1–20 | doi = 10.1146/annurev.nu.10.070190.000245}} A short summary is in [http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev.nu.10.072106.100001 the journal's preface].
  • {{cite journal | author = Jukes, T.H. | year = 1990 | title = Nutrition Science from Vitamins to Molecular Biology | journal = Annual Review of Nutrition | volume = 10 | issue = 1 | pages = 1–20 | doi = 10.1146/annurev.nu.10.070190.000245}} A short summary is in [http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev.nu.10.072106.100001 the journal's preface].

DumZiBoT (talk) 03:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

not OMM

Moved the amygadlin parts here[1] for discussion. One JOM article mentioned it almost as a news item among many, that's not a recommendation much less advocation. Jane Brody has been a QW buddy and OMM critic, including the ignorants part on *obstructing* vitamin C testing[2]. Her articles on OMM were long considered not fair minded or accurate. e.g. Jane Brody seems to allow her antagonism to megavitamins and orthomolecular treatment to carry her far past the point of reasonable criticism. She has casually evaluated and disregarded important research and scientific documentation of efficacy in the diagnosis of many conditions. Her resistance has indeed become ritualized. - Allan Cott, M.D., P.C. (NYT, 1983; JOM 1984)

• Not RS, Not OMM RS: Life Enthusiast Co-op, some random supplements manufacturer site that has a Abram Hoffer article with a web frame of links that includes "B-17". Nope.
• Brody, NYT 1991 off topic reference with passing comment on OMM about the psychiatric war of APA, the laetrile comment was not connected to OMM. Nope.
• [3] Even the BC Cancer Agency, which has published a number of patently false statements on OMM related items before, did not connect laetrile to OMM, rather the OMM link is in the frame's linked general index. Nope.

OMM (JOM) recognizes there are separations on issues from groups that may overlap in may other nutrition and natural health areas. Laetrile is one such separation with other natural/metabolic groups. This just causes confusion & unfair criticism.

Neither Abram Hoffer, Linus Pauling, nor JOM editor Saul advocate(d) laetrile[4]. They certainly do not consider it a vitamin, in fact, it is potentially a double toxin, cyanide and benzaldeahyde, a chemotherapeutic toxin agent, an area where the seam between orthomolecular medicine and some other (herbal?) groups shows. Although virtually everyone in the natural world would have looked at it in the 1960s-1970s and may feel that it was questionably assessed (Moertel & MSK again), the OMM world doesn't see it as a big OMM issue.

One gets the impression in Tim's press to disparage & discredit OMM, there are hurried, unread searches, and is not properly investigating his target.--TheNautilus (talk) 04:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Where in [5] is there a statement on laetrile from Hoffer or Pauling? It says Saul does not regard it as a vitamin, which is useful, but there is no quotations from anybody else on the subject. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Since the 1970s, some proponents of alternative medicine have described cancer as a vitamin deficiency disease and advocated the use of "metabolic therapy" using a mixture of vitamins, minerals, pancreatic enzymes, and the compound amygdalin or laetrile. which they claim to be a vitamin. The status of "metabolic therapy" as part of orthomolecular medicine is uncertain. On the one hand, it has been described in a book by R. A. S. Hemat on "Principles of Orthomolecularism". However, although laetrile is mentioned in a review of the "Orthomolecular Treatment of Cancer" by Abram Hoffer, as one of several substances used in the alternative treatment of cancer, he does not class this as an orthomolecular compound. Similarly, although Andrew Saul writing in 1999 described laetrile research as "tantalizingly successful", this author also disagreed with the classification of this product as a nutrient. There is no scientific evidence that amygdalin is either a vitamin or is effective in treating cancer. The US Food and Drug Administration has prosecuted people selling laetrile as a cancer treatment, calling it a "highly toxic product that has not shown any effect on treating cancer."

Tim, you're going to have to change your wording to accurately reflect Hoffer's wording. He explicitly states that he will not discuss laetrile. He mentions it only as something that people might be curious about, but that he doesn't feel is "orthomolecular", along with a bunch of other alternative cancer treatments like Esiac. Really, this should be just embarrassing for you. This is an obvious violation of WEIGHT and especially COATRACK, and it certainly doesn't belong in the history section. I will continue to remove it (perhaps weekly) if it is placed in. Unfortunately I've had bad luck with drawing anyone outside with a RfC, so I don't think that will help, but I'd sure the more reasonable people at Arbitration would back up policy, and maybe Mediation if we could arrange to have a reasonable person. If we were going to add this, it would need to be reduced to two sentences and placed in an appropriate section on cancer treatments. Suggested sentences:

"Laetrile, an ineffective alternative cancer treatment, is sometimes called vitamin B17 and extolled as an orthomolecular medicine,[Hemat ref] but Abram Hoffer, in a paper on orthomolecular cancer treatments, states that he will not discuss laetrile. An associate of Hoffer's, Andrew Saul, states that it is not a vitamin. Andrew Saul believes laetrile is "probably a palliative treatment" (slowing cancer rather than curing). He writes that laetrile's effectiveness at treating tumors in mice as described by alternative medicine figure Ralph Moss seems "tantalizingly successful", but laetrile has been tested in humans, and appears to be ineffective. The US Food and Drug Administration has prosecuted people selling laetrile as a cancer treatment, calling it a "highly toxic product that has not shown any effect on treating cancer."

Saul's concluding opinion is not that it is tantalizing successful, but that it is probably a palliative treatment. If you want to take out that sentence on treating mice, that seems good to me -- because it could be confusing to readers, who might think there is, after all, some evidence. II | (t - c) 21:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd thought that since Hoffer mentions this in a review of OM and cancer, he was therefore implying it was part of OM. However, I can see the argument that he did not make any explicit comment on whether or not this was in fact part of the subject he was discussing, it could be an aside on related forms of alternative medicine. I've reworded this a bit more. I do think we need to discuss this topic. The overlap however between "metabolic therapy" and orthomolecular medicine is too large to ignore, and Laetrile is certainly a very notable part of the history of "vitamin treatment" of cancer. If there is a clear example of a leading proponent of OM distancing themselves from these claims that would be great, but Saul's statement is at best a bit ambiguous. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

We could add it to the section on cancer treatments, but my impression was that use of Laetrile was mostly historical. Do many people still advocate its use? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably only in sketchy Mexican clinics. However, apparently many AltMed people do not consider the case closed on it -- after all, Saul says it is probably a good palliative treatment, and Moss's site is still out there. There's no evidence that OMM ever really advocated its use historically, however, and it just seems out of place. There's no evidence that Krebs was related to OMM at all. It fits best in a cancer section. Also, I think you're confused, or your source is confused. Laetrile is not metabolic therapy. Metabolic therapy is "detoxification" i.e. Gerson therapy type stuff, along with a bunch of other wacky things. Laetrile is thought to be a naturally cytotoxic chemical. Some AltMed people do the "laetrile + metabolic therapy". Two separate things. The ACS has a good page on metabolic therapy. I still think that there's no reason for this to be on this page. The connection is too tenuous. Metabolic therapy, yes, to some degree. Laetrile, no. II | (t - c) 19:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As that ACS page says "At least one metabolic therapy system also includes the drug laetrile" The Encyclopedia of Cancer also has an entry on this which says Laetrile. Laetrile, which is also known as amygdalin or vitamin B17, is a chemical found in fruit pits, lima beans, sorghum, and clover; it contains sugar and produces cyanide. The cyanide is considered to be the primary anti-cancer agent in laetrile. Laetrile has been used by itself to treat cancer and as part of metabolic therapy, but it has not shown any anti-cancer effectiveness in NCI clinical trials."[6]. The "deficiency hypothesis" and "metabolic therapy" is discussed in this review and this much longer and more historical review. This probably isn't a term with a single defined meaning, indeed PMID 16931201 uses it in a completely different context. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:42, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As I think Tim has discovered, it's pointless to debate what is and is not "metabolic therapy", since the term has been applied so haphazardly, vaguely, and inconsistently as to be essentially meaningless as a discrete category. MastCell ^Talk 20:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no. Tim just stated exactly what I said: laetrile is used in addition to metabolic therapy, which is synonymous with "detoxification" methods. It's clear cut and simple. Nobody in AltMed thinks that laetrile is metabolic therapy. Incidentally, here is an article in the JOM critical of "foot pad" detoxification. Most (or perhaps all) of the detox stuff is wacky, sure, but it has to be some sort of "detox" to be called metabolic therapy, I'm thinking. II | (t - c) 21:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

No, Tim's source said that metabolic therapy systems "include" laetrile and that laetrile is "part of metabolic therapy". If "nobody in AltMed" thinks that laetrile is part of metabolic therapy, then that underscores the vagueness which I was describing. MastCell ^Talk 21:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually yeah, you might be right.Metabolic therapy is a catchy, somewhat meaningless word. Still, the ACS says just says that one of its forms included laetrile, ostensibly under the claim that laetrile is nutritional. II | (t - c) 21:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think that at best some people believe that Laetrile is a vitamin and that it is part of OM, this is of course laughable, but since this is such a prominent subject in "vitamin cures" in the most general sense of the phrase I think we do have to address it in the article - if only to make a clear distinction between this form of "vitamin-based metabolic therapy" and mainstream orthomolecularism. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Merged version

"Amygdalin (Laetrile), an ineffective and toxic alternative cancer treatment, is sometimes called vitamin B17 and extolled as an orthomolecular medicine or "metabolic medicine", but Abram Hoffer, in an article on orthomolecular cancer treatments, states that he will not discuss laetrile. An associate of Hoffer's, Andrew Saul, states that although it is not a vitamin, he believes it is probably an effective palliative treatment because descriptions of animal tests seem "tantalizingly successful". There is no scientific evidence that amygdalin is either a vitamin or effective in treating cancer. The US Food and Drug Administration has prosecuted people selling laetrile, calling it a "highly toxic product that has not shown any effect on treating cancer."."

SOAPy, offtopic and confusing, or even misleading to a skimmer. Best moved to other articles with perhaps a minor link. This still encourages OR that creates inaccurate OMM links and dilutes the article.--TheNautilus (talk) 21:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I notice that "Vitamin B17 and cancer." is classified under the heading "Materials re: the use of orthomolecular medicine as a treatment for cancer." in the collection of Linus Pauling's papers at Oregon State University. link Maybe Pauling has published on this topic? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:30, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

This is speculation (OR) for both of us without the actual files. But looks like source articles, correspondence, LP non-publication material: manuscripts, research notes, correspondence, figures, experimental data, non-Pauling reprints and other scientific research materials. We can be reasonably sure LP informed himself on the subject and corresponded with others to investigate it.--TheNautilus (talk) 09:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Tim's statements seem to eagerly confuse any & all mentions & claims of the word "vitamin" as being OMM - most definitely not. He needs to stick to WP:V, RS.

Of course there are many nutritionally oriented groups. Many borrow OMM for improvements to their lot, with or without acknowledgment. It is important to both OMM and the public, that these maintain intellectual integrity and not be confused. Kind of like counterfeit pharmaceuticals, a putative antibiotic even with convincing packaging and some active ingredient, can lead to a poor or even fatal result. In a historically confused subject, where the public has no accurate background (in fact, lots of misinformation, see it here all the time), it is doubly important that additional confusion and misinformation not be added in a putative reference work.

Now we have quoted positions on Hoffer and Saul. As for Pauling, I'll have to comb, but I can't recall him ever accepting laetrile, or even scientifically associating with laetrilists. In fact, I am thinking of part of a scandal where Pauling uncharacteristically denounced and summarily (r)ejected a younger associate, where test materials likely containing laetrile had been sneaked into the lab from certain Christian fundamentalist diet advocates. Several such right wing, Christian groups have had a deep abiding interest in laetrile all through the 60s, 70s, even to the present.--TheNautilus (talk) 19:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Are there any objections to the merged version above? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I object in case you missed it before as SOAPy, offtopic and confusing, or even misleading to a skimmer. ... still encourages...inaccurate [links to] OMM... and dilutes the article. Also Saul's statement is stated as *personal speculation* about something not OMM, that is rather about politics in science and other groups' treatment.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

NPOV objection

What is the NPOV problem with noting that OM is distinct from many other forms of alternative medicine in that it does not involve magical thinking? This is what the source says, so this isn't OR, and this seems to me to be quite a positive thing to note about this systems of thought. I've tried tweaking the text a bit more, but if you could explain your objection I might have better idea of what form of words you'd find acceptable. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It looks between "damned by faint praise" and suggestive insinuations, sort of like an adversary saying "recent, official tests prove the [target] is not a moron or crazy" by raising questions and doubts, like "by how much?" or "what about before and how long ago?" see also WP:WEASEL--TheNautilus (talk) 22:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What insinuations? The present text makes a clear and positive distinction between OM and many of the more "unconventional" forms of alternative medicine. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:13, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

However, orthomolecular medicine is distinct from many other forms of alternative medicine, such as homeopathy, since its ideas are biologically-based and consistent with scientific laws, it does not involve magical thinking, and it can generate testable hypotheses.

from WP:WEASEL, For example, saying "some people claim that The Beatles were a popular band" unnecessarily raises a (false) question about the statement's truth. Can easily be stated without it to yield equally clear and positive version w/o insinuated ambiguities.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand your objection. The article does not state that "Some people claim that orthomolecular medicine is distinct from many other forms of alternative medicine..." It simply says "However, orthomolecular medicine is distinct from many other forms of alternative medicine..." Would you prefer it if it omitted the word "many" and said orthomolecular medicine is distinct from areas of alternative medicine such as homeopathy? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

It also is a non-specific deprecation of altmed in general. Too SOAPy, too many negatives and double negatives (e.g. "does not contravene"). A more direct statement would be: "orthomolecular medicine is distinct from many other forms of alternative medicine, since its ideas and recommendations are biologically based [Merck], use the existing medical literature, and generates testable hypotheses, scientific and clinical data."--TheNautilus (talk) 23:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

How do you test "clinical data"? Data are not testable, you use data to test hypotheses. I've removed the double negative. We can add "biologically-based" if you wish (see above), but what is your reason for omitting the referenced statement that it does not involve magical thinking? Tim Vickers (talk) 23:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Re-order: "...and generates scientific and clinical data as well as testable hypotheses." "magical" raises a question in some readers mind even though legally correct.--TheNautilus (talk) 13 August 2008

I don't think guesses about what readers might imagine are appropriate reasons for removing factual material from an article. What source would you cite for stating that OM produces scientific data? Given the non-acceptance of the JOM by the scientific community, I see that as a rather contentious claim that would need a source in mainstream science stating this explicitly. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. II | (t - c) 02:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the statement about generating scientific data seems fine, or that including this sentence as above seems fine? Serriously though, this statement abut generating data would need a source - especially in light of OM's antipathy towards randomised controlled trials and the application of science to assessing medical treatments. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Accepted scientific data? Riordan(OMM, C & cancer) & Levine(NIH), post 2000 PNAS where Riordan's data pre-2000 started the ball rolling.--TheNautilus (talk) 03:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, your inclusion seems fine. I'd really like to include more of these RCTs which occurred in the 60s and 70s. As I've told you, the way to get to NPOV is to show, not tell. So show that studies were done, they turned out negative, and let people come to their own conclusions as to whether OMM is a pseudoscience based on these facts. Don't cite unpublished papers by a psychology PhDs. We already have, in the lead, that OMM's methods are considered ineffective, and that some consider it quackery/food faddism, from more reliable sources. Adding the pseudoscience infobox adds zero value to those statements. All it does it make certain people, myself included, annoyed, because it is an obvious violation of NPOV. II | (t - c) 03:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, no problem. I'd misread your comment and had started to argue with you! Tim Vickers (talk) 03:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The 60s-70s-80s papers' conclusions quoted against OMM have been shown to be waste paper by mainstream authors since 2000, - APA (1973) vs Hoffer, C and the whole/old mess. Orthomolecular recommendations have been *roughly matched* in many cases by modern mainstream medicine in various countries and settings: folic acid, fish oil, vitamin D, etc.--TheNautilus (talk) 03:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Rather than engage in an umpteenth circular and unresolvable argument, can you (we) find any reliable sources that indicate, without use of editorial synthesis, that the older papers are "waste paper" or that mainstream medicine has embraced what previously were specifically "orthomolecular" treatments? MastCell ^Talk 23:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Hemila (2006) says, after an exhaustive (~15 years) metastudy, published piece by piece, all the old cold + vitamin C papers are miscalculated, misinterpreted , misrepresented and many authors show bias. Earlier OMM treatments are usually "absorbed", noted by OMM proponents, not readily mainstream acknowledged. OMM is largely a shunned name.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you specify which work by Hemila you're referring to? I'm not finding one which meets your description. MastCell ^Talk 23:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I looked up nearly every article written by Hemila during the past 4 years, and his findings indicate that Vitamin C has no usefulness in preventing colds. Douglas RM, Hemilä H (2005). "Vitamin C for preventing and treating the common cold". PLoS Med. 2 (6): e168, quiz e217. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.0020168. PMC 1160577. PMID 15971944. {{cite journal}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link) OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe (see below) that the work TheNautilus refers to is Hemila's doctoral thesis, not a peer-reviewed publication. Is that correct, TN? MastCell ^Talk 04:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

<removed indent>Below is a quote from Hemila:

Implications for practice The lack of effect of prophylactic vitamin C supplementation on the incidence of common cold in normal populations throws doubt on the utility of this wide practice. In special circumstances, where people are engaged in extreme physical exertion and/or exposed to significant cold stress the current evidence indicates that vitamin C supplementation may have a considerable beneficial effect, but caution should be exercised in generalizing this finding that is mainly based on marathon runners. The prophylaxis trials found 8% reduction in common cold duration in adults, and 13.6% reduction in children, but the practical relevance of these findings are open, since the therapeutic trials carried out so far have not found benefits and this level of benefit probably does not justify long term prophylaxis in its own right. In summary, on the basis of our analysis, there seems no justification for routine mega-dose vitamin C supplementation in the normal population. Prophylaxis may be justified in those exposed to severe physical exercise and/or cold. So far, therapeutic supplementation has not been shown to be beneficial. Implications for research With the findings from our analyses, it does not seem worth while to carry out further regular prophylaxis trials in the normal population. However there will be value in better understanding the role of vitamin C in those exposed to heavy exertion and cold stress. The findings in marathon runners, skiers and soldiers operating in sub-arctic conditions warrant further research. None of the therapeutic trials carried out so far has examined the effect of vitamin C on children, even though the prophylaxis trials have found substantially greater effect on duration in children. In view of the greater incidence of respiratory infections in children such therapeutic trials are warranted, especially where there is known to be sub-optimal dietary intake of vitamin C. The findings in the Anderson 1974 studies on the therapeutic use of very high doses of 4 g and 8 g on the day of onset of respiratory symptoms are tantalising and deserve further assessment in the light of the uncertainties raised by the problems with the placebo groups in that important study.

See Douglas RM, Hemilä H, Chalker E, Treacy B (2007). "Vitamin C for preventing and treating the common cold". Cochrane Database Syst Rev (3): CD000980. doi:10.1002/14651858.CD000980.pub3. PMID 17636648.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link). OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I think exactly the same source distortions were discussed and rejected in TheNautilus/I'clast's RfC. See talk page. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

No Tim. It is you and the "skeptic" tag team that are making POV distortions beyond the specificity, reliability and currency of your "references". First you use vague "nutritional" generalizations (e.g. by a 1997 AMA page etc as RS references) to push in deprecating SOAPy quotes of obsolete & POV statements by extreme critics not peer reviewed either and economic competitors[7]. Then you want to ignore mainstream authorities in recent sources like Hemila (2006) that directly show Barrett & Herbert's fatal errors and marked bias, where in their QW-NCAHF etc articles, Barrett & Herbert constantly attack OMM &/or Pauling, pretty much addressing vitamin C in the same breath as slamming them, so using Hemila (2006) not OR. Certainly not the same as the self serving OR on references you love to claim as negatively addressing OMM.

Similarly Hemila (2006) and previous papers address the previous mainstream literature's generally fatal errors and bias on vitamin C that are generally repeated in mainstream texts and journals, papers that do often directly criticize OMM &/or Pauling. Also Hemila (2006) incorporates OMM by reference but only directly refers to Pauling (numerous times).

Your other references. Other old canards are still being repeated by less informed mainstream authors (remember that old saw about texts being 20 years behind?), such as BC Decker's patently false "never" blurb in Cancer Medicine(2003), uncritically parroting known partisan Cassileth's old misstatement, not an informed or peer reviewed or discussed-at-length POV deprecation.

Your more recent nutritional reference, a negative nutritional sound bite, (Braganza 2005) was criticized for missing an important DHA study where Braganza excused herself for publication date and conceded error on mercury contamination and confusing a saturate with the DHA polyunsaturate - hardly an authoritative, current source on OMM, or even introductory organic chemistry. --TheNautilus (talk) 20:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting source

The Principles of Orthomolecular Medicine seems to give a much broader definition of OM than we use in this article. What do people think of including this as a source on OM beliefs? Tim Vickers (talk) 16:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Eh. It is a little self-serving. Basically Kunin is saying that everything marginally scientific (at least based on empiricism) in AltMed is orthomolecular medicine. I think a lot of people would take issue with that, and rightly so. He is an interesting source contesting the classification as unscientific, as he notes that AltMed has fallen away from science, and that this is a bad thing. He maintains that OMM is still scientific, and claims it draws from mainstream work rather than doing a lot of its own testing. I'm not saying his words should be pointed out in the article as an objection to your recent characterization, however. That paper bothers me in its illogical capitalization. I wonder if he grew up in Germany.

I'll think about how this might be factored in then, the definition of OM does seem to depend on who you listen to. The addition in the text is intended as a replacement for the pseudoscience infobox, see Talk:Orthomolecular_medicine#Compromise. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Pauling and Hoffer are the principal authorities on definition of principles and related statements.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Response to Tim Vickers

Hi there. I've been trying to find a form of words that might cover the same ground as that pseudoscience box and be acceptable to everybody involved. I think most of the editors on the page would agree that OM isn't as unreal as homeopathy or therapeutic touch, but is obviously seen as not mainstream science. Could you live with "This lack of serious testing of orthomolecular medicine has led to its practices being classed with other less plausible forms of alternative medicine and regarded as unscientific." diff? Tim Vickers (talk) 16:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Tim left the message above to me today, and I'm seeing conversations about these changes in many locations. I'm not sure where to respond, so maybe here? Here are my thoughts. For me to accept anything in medicine as passing the "sniff" test of being legitimate, I ask two questions: first, is it plausible, not just at the surface but based on my knowledge of science; and second, has it been validated or tested (repeatedly) by reasonable scientists in the world. Everyone seems to compare OMM to Homeopathy, and, for me, Homeopathy misses the mark on plausibility and on validation. There isn't any way I can imagine that 0 molecules in solution have any ability to do anything.

OMM may seem plausible on a surface level, but dig down one or two levels, and it really makes no sense. OMM's basic tenet is to allow us to live longer without diseases killing us. My basic issue about the plausibility of OMM is that our average lifespan has skyrocketed only in the last 100 years or so. That's not enough time for evolution to kick in, so what possible nutrient would have a natural selection effect on the evolution of humans? None. In fact, over the past 10,000 years, human diet has gone from a hunter to hunter gatherer to lazy ass kids eating greasy potato chips in front of their Xbox (oops, I rant). In a short 10,000 years, I'm hard pressed to think how natural selection would have selected for individuals who respond to micro or macronutrients. I know we eat a lower fiber diet today than we did maybe 100 years ago, but then again, we eat a higher fiber diet than we did 10,000 years ago. Maybe high fiber prevents intestinal diseases. Maybe not. Maybe countries with lower colon cancer rates are a result of diet, genes, and who knows what else.

But setting aside evolution, where else is there plausibility? Pauling suggested taking lots of Vitamin C to prevent colds. Well, the body just can't absorb that much Vitamin C. In fact, my guess is that the urine of Americans is probably filled with the filtered out vitamin pills that we all down. Mostly, it comes down to the fact that many, if not most, of the claims of OMM are just that: claims. I think if we took the various points that make pseudoscience, including use of vague claims, reliance on confirmation, lack of progress, etc, OMM meets the test of pseudoscience.

Anyways, "lack of serious testing" implies pseudoscience to me. If the proponents can't even show us a reasonable mechanism on how it might work, let alone scientific validation that it does, what else can we call it but pseudoscience? So, the long answer is that I think the statement is a bit weasely (is that a word). It's more than unscientific, it is pseudoscience, not much different than homeopathy, except that I know that Vitamin C prevents scurvy. That is, the body needs these vitamins to be healthy, but that's not OMM, that's just basic physiology. It's the claims beyond the basic medicine that drives me up the wall. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as your recent addition that it is unscientific, that's OK by me. But it doesn't justify a pseudoscience box. The problem with boxes is that they're too large and prominent, and so people don't even bother to read the prose. It characterizes something which is not generally considered pseudoscience per se, like Astrology or Iridology, in a way which violates WP:PSCI. Perhaps if more testing had been done on their claimed treatments, taking into account OMM practices, and OMM people still believed it. But we don't know if that would be the case. II | (t - c) 18:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Why shouldn't we call a spade, a spade. It really meets all of the qualifications of pseudoscience, and therefore is. Maybe someone reading this article will save themselves $500 a year in multivitamins that don't work. Eat some extra broccoli, spinach, blueberries, keep out the fat, and call it a day. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 21:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You think it does. What you're talking about is original research, and you don't really seem up on the research itself, anyway. The original hypothesis that niacin could treat schizophrenia was based on a biochemical foundation, and the research was done on patients which the original hypothesis was not extended to.[8] Every science has some rough starts, and Pauling and Cameron's research on vitamin C and cancer was probably one of those. But currently research is continuing in the area of vitamin C and cancer. As I showed you in an earlier link, intravenous vitamin C reduced certain tumors 50% in mice. The hypothesis that omega-3 fatty acids can treat mood disorders is supported by some of the data available -- there's just not a ton of that data. Similarly, tryptophan has an obvious biochemical foundation for its use against depression and insomnia, as it is a precursor for several neurotransmitters. See the wikipedia section on it. Tyrosine, phenylalanine, and methionine are also precursors to important neurotrasmitters, with some studies showing that they are promising.[9] SAM-E (wiki section) is similarly promising. These things are ignored for some reason by mainstream medicine, so there is not a ton of data available, but much of the data is promising. Why they are ignored is a relevant question. It is not due to the a lack of biological plausibility or tons of negative data. Most doctors just make assumptions, as you are doing right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ImperfectlyInformed (talk • contribs) 22:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Your anger-filled response is not helpful, but let me answer some of your comments. Vitamin C may or may not do anything. Since I study medical research as more than just a hobby, I can tell you very few studies performed on mice ever lead to clinical results. Tryptophan is, at best, a simple amino acid that may or may not have an effect. And the rest of your stuff, wiki is the worst source ever for confirmation. Your responses are not very helpful to the conversation. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 23:56, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

All of the anger is in your head. :p I'm completely calm, and I was completely calm while writing that. My apologies if my response came off as angry; perhaps I need to use more emoticons. Your statement about mice results not translating into human results is unsubstantiated by anything I've ever seen, and you weren't able to direct me to a link. It would be interesting to see a study on this. There is a lot of literature on mice models. They're getting better, as well.[10] Regardless, whether or not the mice research matters is irrelevant. Positive mice results are considered to be preliminary research warranting further research, not negative. The fact is that there is plenty of positive data out there. That makes it hard to say that OMM is a pseudoscience. II | (t - c) 00:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

PMID 14508091 (It is not uncommon for new anti-cancer drugs or therapies to show highly effective, and sometimes even spectacular anti-cancer treatment results using transplantable tumors in mice. These models frequently involve human tumor xenografts grown subcutaneously in immune deficient hosts such as athymic (nude) or severe combined immune deficient (SCID) mice.) Also addressed in PMID 14519650. Of course mouse models aren't useless, or no one would use them, but they are demonstrably inconsistent in their translation to efficacy in clinical terms in humans. Yes, they are getting better, and it may be that they're more useful in the targeted-therapy era than they were in the cytotoxic era. But the mouse xenograft model, at least, has a shortcoming that's become more and more obvious: one of the central themes in recent cancer research has to do with the interaction between the tumor itself and abnormal cells in the surrounding stroma. Xenograft models don't reliably recapitulate this apparently important interaction, to say nothing of the current mania for "cancer stem cells". But I agree - positive preclinical results are generally necessary for a compound to move forward. But when a compound has promising preclinical results followed by deafening silence in terms of human results, the proper conclusion is not that a conspiracy exists, that it's been ignored or suppressed, or that it hasn't been studied. The proper conclusion is that it lacks efficacy in humans until proven otherwise, as do many preclinically effective compounds - it's the null hypothesis, and it needs to be disproven. MastCell ^Talk 03:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those sources. Yes, I agree, although there haven't been many rigorous studies of intravenous vitamin C in humans with cancer, as was done with these mice. Currently there is one Phase II trial planned. The Phase I trial was not all that great, although it did show a lack of major toxicity. After the Phase II trial finishes we'll have a conclusion, and I'd say there's a good chance it will be negative. Anyway, we're into a tangent. Major points are: using nutrients for conditions aside from deficiency, or looking towards deficiencies as a first approach, are not necessarily a crazy way to approach some diseases. Yes, many of the approaches are not backed by highly rigorous evidence, but medicine has not always regarded strict RCTs and systematic reviews to be necessary prior to using a treatment. Plus, the fact is that OMM has had objections to the early studies. They are now being addressed to some degree. How OMM reacts to the results of these newer studies will determine whether it is a pseudoscience -- ie whether it pretends to be a science but rejects the findings of science. Get them to the point where they can't offer a criticism, and see what they say. OMM ostensibly bases much of its approaches on its own data. These data are mainly case studies, and they exist on the JOM (which has a lot of out-there claims -- MastCell would probably be particularly irritated with the selenium/AIDS hypothesis discussed on Wiki's selenium page). Hoffer also claims to have done some of his own RCTs in the 60s. So they claim to hold to a scientific standard, they claim to have the data, and if the tests were done in such a way that they couldn't offer criticism, yet negative results were found, I imagine they would yield their case. II | (t - c) 04:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh God... are you trying to give me a heart attack? I promised myself I'd stay away from cleaning up selenium until the SELECT trial results were finalized and published. I've pretty much given up on correcting every instance where a correlation is presented as causation in Wikipedia medical articles, but the HIV/AIDS/selenium thing should probably be addressed. MastCell ^Talk 17:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

A couple of responses to Tim:

1. The compromise is mostly ok, but I would change "lack of serious testing" to "lack of demonstrated efficacy" - I believed this stuff has been tested and found to be ineffective.
2. Are there any meta-analyses that deal specifically with orthomolecular and megadose therapy that are published in reputable journals? These were very effective at the homeopathy article in shutting down the "my random uncontrolled paper in J. Clin. Bull. proves XYZ" edit warring. If reliable tertiary sources are available they should be prioritized.
3. I believe it's time to pursue further dispute resolution against TheNautilus. I note a semi-aged user conduct RFC that describes many of the same behaviors he is currently displaying. His trumpeting of a paper from 1944 after dismissing a 1990 article on the grounds of age (in the same hour, even) was simply jaw-dropping, as was his accusations of SOAPboxing above. I am extremely hesitant to ask for discretionary sanctions, however, since they have been a complete and utter disaster when applied.

My 2p. Skinwalker (talk) 23:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The best third-party review of the evidence that I've seen was done by Menolascino. The paper is cited in this article. Email myself, Tim, or TheNautilus for a copy. II | (t - c) 00:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

re #1 In case you missed all the *current* discussions & references I gave: [11][12], "found ineffective" is recognized as obsolete error, post 2000. You're just closing your eyes and pushing POV.

re #3 Misciting my use of the 1944 reference, used to show historical, advanced mainstream interest, simply seems to lack AGF and is attacking me. Sounds like a pseudoskeptical tag team attack forming to push its POV.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

---

It's not okay, Marlin[13], Skin[14]. OMM is about science & medicine (including developing hypotheses) and a historically frustrated scientific process.

Some of Marlin's statements seem to confuse Science and Medicine, and place one group's definition of medicine as the only definition, or arbitrator of "medicine". Many stages of science (with financing & politics) are typically passed before something is now granted status as officially (FDA) recognized, AMA blessed "medicine".

The pseudoscience POV pushing here remains so much ignorant and/or biased pseudoskeptical rhetoric. Many aspects of OMM involve physiological responses that reflect simple, often outrageous, denial on the basis of absolutely no relevant data from its critics. (The 4600 BC creationists are less scientifically benighted than some OMM critics - at least no high school dropouts could rerun 4600 BC but persistently neglect to do so). OMM pioneers have provided what they can from personal resources, but institutional scale testing requires substantial support. Most of what OMM has gotten from the institutions can be classified as neglect or sabotage, often from hostile competitors. Much of OMM remains in a early scientific stage through this no-so-benign neglect by those with the money and the responsibility to test new public health innovations.

The nutrition related aspects of increased life span have many threads, + & -. Many aspects of food preparation & handling of course eliminate many cases of typhoid, cholera, etc that stunt the old 19th (and before) century family trees. Improvements to storage, refrigeration, reduced spoilage & salt, and rapid transport allowed us many dietary elements not availably geographically (bananas) or seasonally (fresh fruit & vegetables). The rise of RDAs (often more generous in the first rounds) eliminated many common, severe medical problems. Of course, sweeteners (sugars), a big minus today, have been a growth market since the discovery of the Americas. Various negative 20th century threads are something a negative technology effect, e.g. margarine (rising transfats) from ca 1900 to perhaps peaking in the 80s in many diets, oxidized fats (nice ex lg, permeable plastic bottles of polyunsaturated oils, fried), sugar & starch galore that do *require* additional nutrient levels in the literature, inadequate fresh, whole foods. That last 100 lbs of sugar, starch and transfat, with inadequate RDA intakes (vitamin D, maybe E) and omega3, are probably major players in many chronic problems today that may have already peaked the post-infancy population's average age attainment.

The real pseudoscience lies with those who *refuse* to *accurately* assess &/or trial the nutrient dense *packages*. Only a relative few OMM recommendations are even frequently monotherapeutic (e.g. niacin & IV vitamin C). Even there "big science" totally fails to do the easy testing *badly*. The problem is not OMM, it is corrupt gatekeeprs & malignant pseudoskeptics prating their dangerous falsehoods with a bullhorn to a nutritionally ignorant, gullible medico-technical "elite" with no real education or independent nutrtional research. Niacin has been off and on attacked by statin (and fibrozil) makers with sabotaged & misrepresented tests (complaints from largely ignored authoritative researchers taken from letters to NEJM, JAMA, Ann Int Med). IV vitamin C for toxics and viruses remains unexamined after literally trillions of dollars & 3/4 century. Although many medical charities & foundations, government agencies, medical societies can be scored for their systematic errors, neglect and bias on this subject, special criticism goes to certain authoritarian (not -ive) and pseudoskeptical individuals & groups that have derailed many budding efforts by economic, social, legalistic, and unscientific attack. With similar never-ending recurrence here at WP.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This statement, while undoubtedly heartfelt, is completely and utterly unproductive. I won't get into the specifics of the above rhetoric, but hearing it repeated at length in place of a more content- and source-based discussion is disappointing. MastCell ^Talk 23:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry MC, I don't have a better approach for new editors with strong "skeptical" points of view. But if I don't explain afresh they'll run away with erroneous edits, again. The sources I present are frequently being ignored, but their unrelated references on misc nutrition groups are being used to denigrate OMM that fits their pov.--TheNautilus (talk) 00:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you're the skeptical one. You're skeptical of real science, real verification, and real reliable sources. And you shouldn't treat new editors in any way but respectfully. BTW, who are you calling new?  :) OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I do treat new editors respectfully.^[15] I am not "skeptical" of "real science", I expect those who claim it so, to honor it, and its methods with prioritized V, RS sources. The PS²QW POV on OMM on vitamin C, APA v Hoffer, and Pauling is tired & WP:RS discredited-in-the-mainstream. Just most people don't know that, and a number of editors are simply POV & resistant. I've shown this with far more recent, authoritative medical science figures than the recycled QW-NCAHF, & its old (deceased) friends, gunk that represents dramatically misleading statements by some very biased parties, now demonstrated to be unreliable *opinions*, no matter how common or popular with certain editors here. When identifiably unreliable material (like the recycled QW articles on OMM) are recycled into "RS" sources, it doesn't make the dreck "scientifically reliable" over the more recent, more authoritative medical science. It just means that (medical or "scientifc") author is still years behind, continuing to spread errors and misrepresentations, contradicted by more recent WP:RS scientific sources. Tim has done this to me several times now.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

highly biased POV, ignorance and attack —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheNautilus (talk • contribs) 16:41, 14 August 2008

Would anybody mind if I started collapsing these rants? Skinwalker (talk) 23:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Go for it Skinwalker. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I just tried to look up Cochrane - anything there on OMM?Their website is down currently Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:53, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing directly "OMM says...". Only on vitamin C trials that quit well below the orthomolecular range but show increasing promise (author later says in 2006, need to do more, higher dose studies) toward the higher end of these previous tests (4gms/day to 8 grams, once) for colds (OMM would be ~40 to 150 grams/day, divided hourly) and (Hemila, Louhiala in Cochrane Rev 105A, (2007)one striking study on 1 gm/day vitamin C and pneumonia, again well below the OMM range (30+ grams/day IV, &/or 100-200 gms orally).

Hemila (2006), p 70 (of 146): CONCLUSIONS ... The potential effect of vitamin C on the common cold has been a controversial topic for several decades. It has been shown in this thesis that since several major reviews on vitamin C and the common cold present the findings of original trial results erroneously, the conclusions of the reviews are unjustified. Two of these flawed reviews were used as references in major textbooks on infectious diseases and in the US RDA nutritional recommendations as support for the claim that vitamin C has no effect on the common cold. ... The most influential vitamin C common cold trial, carried out by Karlowski et al. (1975), was re-analyzed in this thesis. It was shown that the original conclusions of the authors were inconsistent with the published data.--TheNautilus (talk) 00:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Am I correct in understanding that this is Hemila's doctoral thesis, and not a peer-reviewed publication, that you are citing? MastCell ^Talk 03:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only that, and I really don't care about doctoral dissertations, but Hemila's publications over the past 3 or 4 years indicates that he doesn't think Vitamin C does much of anything except prevent scurvy. This appears to be another quote mining episode. Let's archive this useless conversation. OrangeMarlinContributions 04:00, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Hemila (2006) is a recap of his papers published in journals, 1992-2005 and is published by the U of Finland. According to the RS talk (sometime ago) *University published/distributed* theses seemed to also be acceptable. Hemila is in essence a reigning "vitamin C" authority. His Cochrane reviews on the colds + vitamin C steer away from many issues, simply taking the very most conservative position of what has been proven to therapeutic standards exclusively limited to Class I evidence, dbRCT. Hemila (2006) clearly says vitamin C results trend up with dose and needs more, higher dose tests, his 2007 papers based on others' tests likewise show C+pneumonia as promising. Pls quit bulldozing or ignoring the current the references that disagree with the QW PS²POV, authoritatively demonstrated/stated to biased and severely (unusably) flawed. The Jukes ref shows a right wing polemicist who viscerally hated Pauling, and was po'd when Pauling essentially pointed out the "emperor (Jukes) had no clothes" in a on air radio exchange after 50 years data he wrote an autobiography with an embedded polemic for AJR that his good buddy Olson not only accepted, but *editorialized his blatant bias* louder. hmmm, some RS for patently false or misrepresented material. Prioritizing this earlier stuff is really pushing a group of highly biased authors' old boy, old POV that happens to be shown to be fundamentally confounded. Baised, bad science with many mistakes (violate FACT CHECKING, PATENTLY FALSE), authoritatively identified, post 2000.--TheNautilus (talk) 05:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

So the proposed statement would read as such: This lack of serious testing of orthomolecular medicine has led to its practices being classed with other less plausible forms of alternative medicine and regarded as unscientific. This is a cause-and-effect statement. Distilling it: A lack of research is the cause and the effect is that the subject has been labeled as unscientific. From which source are we getting this cause-and-effect? Or are we drawing our own conclusions based on several sources? Again, I know very little about OMM, so please just verify the statement with a reliable source which on its own lays out this cause-and-effect conclusion. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 00:45, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the term "unscientific" is unfortunate. Orthomolecular medicine certainly has a scientific basis, and was developed by scientists using scientific procedures. I think it would be much better to describe it as "not scientifically proven."—Preceding unsigned comment added by Alterrabe (talk • contribs) 2008-08-15T05:56:09

another version

A more *factual* statement would be in the form: "The safety and efficacy of vitamin C are now considered open questions in mainstream medicine (Hemila, 2006)(Hemila, 2007), after being stymied by decades of bias,^[] error,^[] and neglect,^[] with some promising scientific and clinical reports^[] Similarly much of OMM remains unaddressed and not proven by rigorous trials in mainstream medicine although many OMM recommendations originate in research and clinical reports from the mainstream literature."--TheNautilus (talk) 20:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

"Bias, error, and neglect"? What are you on about? It's not "mainstream medicine's" fault that Linus Pauling didn't understand the basics of clinical trials and comparison groups, or that the vast sums of money donated by Hoffmann–La Roche (yes, a drug company) to the Linus Pauling Institute were spent on things other than a simple randomized controlled trial. It's not up to "mainstream medicine" to disprove every claim someone makes about a vitamin - it's up to the claimants to prove their contentions. Otherwise, I think last sentence is reasonable, in that it describes the lack of rigorous testing but also the fact that OMM recommendations originate from an interpretation of the mainstream medical literature. MastCell ^Talk 21:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

[N.B. LPI doesn't do human intervention trials. Pauling did not design the Vale of Leven studies started in the 1960s by Ewan Cameron in Scotland. LP was an analyst and correspondent on the clinical series coming from EC starting in 1971, doing what he could with what he got. Pauling's initial advice: The best way [LP] wrote Cameron, would be to conduct a double-blind test in his terminal patients...Cameron refused ^{Force of Nature(1995)} ]^{added later}

I put that in to show the balance with TV's previous suggestions, that we should be descriptive rather than judgmental. Hemila(2006) covers bias and error, among others. Things were a little different in the 1930s-1950s & when Klenner first reported his findings. Many people actually had an expectation that the USPHS, HEW and major charities & foundations (tied to mainstream medicine mechanisms of acceptance, perhaps similar to Circulation and the AHA today) really were trying to solve specific crises with big ticket crash programs, leaving no stone unturned. E.g. polio, several rounds of funding for massive investments in iron lungs, some *still* in use today, multiple rounds of vaccine research & high mortality failures. Here is Klenner, claiming in 1949 (JAMA noted), he can easily take a comatose, flaccid polio victim that is dying or mangled, stick a rectal thermometer in one end, pump them up with IV C (and thiamine) on the other end, showing his hospital logs & results, and the victims *walk* again after a brief recovery. Yet... the major groups do NOTHING to investigate and perhaps obstruct. The public suffered a number of years more until first Salk vaccine advanced to several shots and then the publicly distributed sugar cubes with Sabin's vaccine (ca 1962). Given the public health stakes, previous statements and promises then (govt, charities & foundations, AMA), the refusal to make decisive tests then still carries baggage over from a much different environment today. Klenner comments about this. I grew up with one of the crippled polio victims that could have benefited in the time gap between Klenner (1949) and wide vaccine coverage (ca 1959). Wonder how that kid would feel to know it was, perhaps if Klenner was right, utterly unnecessary because some mainstream organizations didn't do as they promised & check it out?--TheNautilus (talk) 21:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Let me make sure I understand. Klenner treated 30 or 40 patients with polio using vitamin C, and claimed essentially a 100% success rate in preventing paralysis. Of course, if you take 100 patients with febrile polio and do nothing, ~99 of them will get better without paralysis. This is where a control group is extremely handy; otherwise, I could claim to have cured those 99 patients by making an offering to Ahura Mazda. But wait: Klenner also treated patients with paralytic polio and reported "curing" one completely. That sounds great until you recognize that spontaneous complete recovery of motor function occurs in about 1/3 of patients with paralytic polio. Look, if Klenner was able to experiment on hundreds of people over 40 years, write up his results in 20-some papers, and travel the country promoting his results, surely he had the ability to perform a simple controlled trial? I know the AMA and the NIH are convenient boogeymen, but there are obvious explanations for their lack of interest in Klenner's claims beyond bias, ignorance, and greed. MastCell ^Talk 22:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Klenner felt this testing was the job of younger, more aggressive researchers that had actual doubt. He didn't have the stomach for placebo controlled dbRCT, perhaps similar to some Europeans & perhaps best not for a radical doctor in a small town. [Klenner, 1949: 60 polio cases, 2 bulbar polio, others in several 1950s papers. sa Levy, 2002 ]^added

"The safety and efficacy of megavitamin C treatments are again considered open questions in mainstream medicine [ref(Hemila, 2006)(Hemila, 2007)]. Similarly much of orthomolecular medicine remains unaddressed and not proven by rigorous trials done to mainstream medical requirements although many orthomolecular recommendations originate in research and clinical reports from the mainstream literature."--TheNautilus (talk) 22:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As for the institutions, the story starts here with interesting hominid results by Jungeblut at Columbia (1935-8), derailed at the Rockefeller Institute ca 1939, fixing the negative outlook of those whose merest whims could make or break advanced research(ers) in America (RI made Pauling). Perhaps one of the more important C negabodies for a generation was Thomas Milton Rivers an important figure at Rockefeller at the time of Sabin's test failures. River keeps popping up with C related polio comments & important job positions that could affect it, for whom WP has little biography, although he certainly does merit a bigger one. Rivers can be found offhand criticizing vitamin C & C antiviral researcher(ers), stridently, such as William McCormick, a big OMM vitamin C pioneer, among others. Rivers' career led from defining virology at the Rockefeller in the 1920s (*his* launch point), to military and government posts during WWII to the Nat'l Foundation for Infantile Paralysis into the 1960s, in the groups that controlled the vast purse strings for testing and research on polio (the high profile virus research $ of the 30s-50s). His opinion, right or wrong, counted, and may partly account for over a generation of funding roadblocks to vitamin C testing and venue.

Based on lab tests that simply missed many actualities of human polio and, by far, vitamin C treatment in the "Klennerian" range on viruses in general.--TheNautilus (talk) 08:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

You failed to engage any of the arguments MastCell just raised. Incidentally, MastCell, asking that Klenner perform a RCT in the 1950s, when the first one probably occurred in 1948, seems a little bit much to ask.[16][17] Are you referring to another type of controlled trial? II | (t - c) 10:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I said a "controlled trial". You're correct that randomization dates to the mid-1940's or so, but the use of an appropriate control group to gauge the effectiveness of an intervention was established well before that time. Go a few pages forward in that issue of the BMJ ([18]) :) MastCell ^Talk 06:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Relevant background to "boogeyman". Trying to help rationally identify historical origins in the medical research establishment's negative outlook from now obscure beginnings. For Klenner's time, "larger scale, institutionally supported/vetted controlled testing" (not necessarily randomized), perhaps a single blind RCT. The double blind, without the emphasis on "prospective", was introduced in different research segments and countries at different times, e.g. Pauling cited an early dbRCT based study by Cohen, Diehl, Baker (1942) done at U Minn winter 1939-1940. RCTs, took life after the Kefauver Harris Amendment in 1962 following the thalidomide disaster.

Klenner's perspective on speed & certainty with IV C on dire illness with viruses and toxins was that he couldn't ethically handle giving "controls" a placebo treatment. Whereas the doctors that were not yet convinced, were in a much better position to test since much of the treatment available was supportive or controversial, e.g. for viral pneumonia in early 40s, oxygen or Xrays up to several hundred rad (multiple treatments). Another puzzle piece is that we don't know how many of Klenner's correspondents tried to test or publish but were ground or hammered into silence, or just ignored. Even Pauling encountered, and was restrained, by all of these hurdles where he studiously attempted to avoid the reflexive skepticism associated with Klenner's quantities. (I have to admit, the first I ever happened to see a mention of Klenner's quantities in the early 1980s in yet another magazine blurb on Pauling & C, just based on some physician in a small NC town, without his name or story, I thought the amounts were absolutely incredible).--TheNautilus (talk) 20:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Definition problem for OMM and vitamin based research

If you look in the medical databases you find tons of studies on almost every vitamin, mineral and other plant based substance, for an overview [19] (click on references when you drill down). Almost none of these studies use the term OMM even though they work with the same approach.

Before antibiotics and the rise of the "modern" xenobiotic pharmaceutial paradigm during the 1920s to 1950s, the medical journals were full of reported studies of how ultra high doses of intravenous vitamn C could cure and suppress most diseases. An overview of these studies from the paper based archives can be found in the book "Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins" by the MD Thomas E. Levy. Hence, there is ample Reliable Sources from mainstream medical journals to support OMM if we only went back in the archives. (To fully embrace the insights from these studies would of course be a deadly threat to the profits of Big Pharma.) MaxPont (talk) 07:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC) MaxPont (talk) 07:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

You know, your argument would possibly be more persuasive if you didn't invoke the tired trope of Big pHarma. But you have, so your arguments will probably be conflagrated with conspiracy theorists, anti-vaccinationists and other woomeisters. Shot info (talk) 07:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The only reason I brought up Big Pharma was because MastCell dismissed criticism of the pharma industry (above).Have you ever read the book "The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It" (Random House 2004) by the former NEJM editor Marcia Angell? She is no friend of alternative medicine but is still highly critcal of Big Pharma. Have you ever heard of medical ghostwriting? Do you think that is an ethical practice in a scientific community? If other editors want to dismiss my arguments because I am critical of the pharma industry, well what can I do about that? MaxPont (talk) 08:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No I haven't read the book in question - and probably won't, I tend to stay away from Industry-Insider-Tells-All-Their-Secrets-They-Don't-Want-You-To-Know type novella. All I suggested is that arguments are more persuasive if you don't seem like a crank: note, I'm not suggest that you are a crank or that your particular edits resemble a crank's - I'm just saying in general, arguements are "better" if they cannot be dismissed (however rightly or wrongly) easily. Now I'm not going to get into an arguement about certain US business practises here, mainly as you have your opinion, I have mine and whether or not they differ or are similar (probably the latter you may find) I'm just dropping a suggestion. You don't have to pick it up (and it seems that you won't based on your comments). Unless of course you wish to discuss, in which case drop me a line on my talk. FWIW, I wonder who manufactures all that Vitamin C? :-)

It would be interesting to see what sources Levy cites. One of the better nutrition journals, The Journal of Nutrition, is free access all the way back to 1928. Jungeblut published a few papers on vitamin C back then, including the earliest animal trials involving polio. He seemed to give it up, however. I'm fairly certain that if these great results were really happening, we would have heard of them. And we have ... McCormick and Klenner made these claims. That's nothing new. Their claims are out there, and even referenced to some degree in the article. See, for example, this page on McCormick. II | (t - c) 07:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

If skeptical WP editors doubt that there are OMM & common roots in the conventional medical literature, consider: In several countries, infants ...were safely given from 1/5 to 1/2+ million units of vitamin D in a single...dose.^{Forgotten Research} Referenced pp 544 & 584-591 in the medical textbook and major vitamin medical reference of the period, The Vitamins in Medicine (1953), 3rd ed, Bicknell and Prescott.--TheNautilus (talk) 09:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

These older studies have been dismissed because they were not double blind and randomized. Medicine is one of the few disciplines that only accept RCT as valid evidence. The requirement for RCT would make almost all other disciplines (geology, astrophycics, computer science, etc.) "unscientific". MaxPont (talk) 08:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really, other sciences don't really depend on human f/back, which is why EBM has it "gold standards" to standarise the non standard f/back. Of course there are elements of medicine that don't need RCT, broken limbs is one I can think of off the top of my head - no doubt MC will know of others - but "mechanistic" type of medical practises probably have a direct corollary with geology, engineering (my b'ground) and the like. If chemical responses in the manufacture of Vit C gave responses like Humans did (placebo effect and all that) then yes RTC would be a good approach to working out the "best" practice of producing Vit C. But it's a chemical, and we know how to make it, so RCT isn't really needed. But this is rather by the by. Shot info (talk) 00:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Shot, I daresay many chemical manufacturing processes need RTC (real time control) in some shape or form.--TheNautilus (talk) 01:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, they may need RTC but not RCT :-) Shot info (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

MaxPont achieved the trifecta: all three sentences in his post were incorrect.

The older studies are "dismissed" (or, rather, considered in appropriate context) because they are older studies. Would you like a complete listing of peer-reviewed medical literature from the first half of the 20th century extolling the effectiveness of lobotomy? Hell, they've even got a Nobel Laureate of their own. When you find yourself resorting to citing literature from 1940 and then invoking conspiracism to explain the subsequent deafening silence, you're in a very bad spot, as far as Wikipedia goes, anyway.

Medicine doesn't "only accept RCT as valid evidence". While RCT's are a desirable standard of evidence for trials of specific interventions, many therapies are widely accepted as useful with far less evidentiary support. Even the most hardened devotee of evidence-based medicine would probably wear a parachute when jumping from a plane.

The last claim, about applying "RCT" to engineering disciplines and the like, is the oddest. Different disciplines implement the scientific method in different ways. I don't prescribe a drug because of its favorable aerodynamic profile in a wind tunnel, and I doubt an aeronautical engineer has much use for randomized clinical trials. MastCell ^Talk 06:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

My book by Levy is is a box in storage locker so I can't find the refs right now. But to take one example from memory. If a doctor from a polio ward in the 1940s reports of 100 case studies where patients had been given IV vitamin C (100 grams per day) and 70 recovered I find it unscientific to pretend that this study doesn't exist. All evidence has do evaluated on its own merits and I find the rigid rejection of facts that don't fit the norm to be utterly in conflict with an open intellectual scientific attitude.

Yes, local anaesthesia and surgery have §not been evalated by RCT before use. In the case with local anaesthesia it is so obvious that it works that no further evidence is needed (in contrast with most pharma drugs that are so ineffective that you can only identify the benefit with statistical methods.)

It seems impossible to get MastCell & Co. to concede to the fact that Big Money can have a corruptive effect on medical professionals. Why don't you take a look outside the medical field. The big car manufacturers bought the public transportation companies in most US cities in the 1920s in order to close them down and force people to buy cars. The tobacco industry spent decades financing corruption in the "science" about the health risks with smoking. The aim of companies is to maximize profits. Suppressing competing products is part of that game. MaxPont (talk) 08:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

There have been a lot of flat wrong "authoritive" assertions, rumormongering, attacks and denials in the popular media AND mainstream medical media about OMM. Although Herbert wasn't the first, he challenged Pauling to show *any* dbRCT on vitamin C. Pauling obliged him with 4 positive dbRCT studies but was rebuffed with bare pseudoskeptical denial, Herbert's buffoonery continuing 30+ years. (Mainstream researchers, reviewers and adjudicators often had to cope with, correct, or restrain, his flawed public statements, aggressive outbursts, and personal attacks.) His associated authors have repeatedly employed wildly misrepresented (-ive) dbRCTs to "disprove" OMM with trivially false conclusions & assertions that in any normal forum would be prima facie scientific misconduct. That many in the medical community uncritically believe (or tolerate) such misrepresentations, can breed great distrust between the camps.

MP's point about pervading influence should not be dismissed casually. Even highly intelligent, honest people within a pervasive system of influence cannot necessarily (or even probably) discern all the distortions in their fact base, observations and social interactions, despite constant vigilance & effort.

IMHO, the loudest broadcast sources of (recycled) systemic bias, error and misrepresentation (such as Herbert) that have been long foisted upon, and uncritically accepted, by many, public or professional, may account for more of the "presumptions" and asymetric perceptions against OMM than the pervasive commercially directed day-to-day activities around the 2+ T$ medical complex. A number of authors have indicated, directly & indirectly, such strident voices have long frozen or poisoned research & communication in an atmosphere of ridicule and fear.--TheNautilus (talk) 20:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Obviously Shot info is right. As any decent engineer will tell you, if they had to deal with a placebo effect, they would be using double-blind trials as well. II | (t - c) 02:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

And if you worked in an area where an exogenous causative factor disturbed your experiments (placebo and nocebo) you would of course explore the potential to exploit this factor to acheive your goals (mental imagery, hypnosis, etc.) instead of suppressing it and pretending it doesn't exist. That would be the true engineering approach, to solve the problem with whatever method that works, instead of upholding some kind of methodological ideological orthodoxy. MaxPont (talk) 06:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course a lot of engineers would disagree with you, but I guess they just don't follow the true engineering approach. You will find that almost all engineers do uphold a some kind of methodological ideological orthodoxy...because it delivers the solution (hence why it is orthodoxy). But we are getting somewhat off topic here, the moral is RCT is not needed for hard sciences. Shot info (talk) 22:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

To go back to my original question. There are a large number of studies in the medical databases that would fall within the definition of OMM but where the term OMM is not used in the studies themselves. (Probably because of the negative PR directed against OMM.) How should that be handled in the article? MaxPont (talk) 07:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't want to get into another situation of editors deciding for themselves what is and is not OM. That leaves the door wide open for WP:SYNTH. Leave them out. Jefffire (talk) 09:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

And even less do we want to get into a situation where an editor uses different criteria to determine if an article pertains to OMM depending on if it furthers or hinders his prejudices.--Alterrabe (talk) 09:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, if something does directly address a claim that is commonly made in an unambigious way then that is generally appropriate. Research into L-ascorbate generally falls under this heading, since Paulus hyped it pretty heavily. The trouble generally comes from people saying "omg this chemical used in study x can be interprated as a vitimin, and it helps, OM is teh roxor" in response to any study published. Jefffire (talk) 10:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy to suppress OM

From the discussions on the talkpage, the idea that the medical-industrial complex is engaged in an active effort to suppress the findings of OM seems to be a very common argument. While this appears a conspiracy theory to me, if this is a major aspect of OM ideas, then we really should have a section on this belief in the article. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Some sources for this section could be:

• Gertz MA, Bauer BA (2003). "Caring (really) for patients who use alternative therapies for cancer". J. Clin. Oncol. 21 (9 Suppl): 125s–128s. doi:10.1200/JCO.2003.01.195. PMID 12743218. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
• Weitzman S (1998). "Alternative nutritional cancer therapies". Int. J. Cancer Suppl. 11: 69–72. PMID 9876483.
• Evelleen Richards. Vitamin C and Cancer: Medicine or Politics?, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1991.

Covering the interdisciplinary conflicts might be worth a sentence in the history similar to Chiropractoric article, this tends to dilute the article much beyond the space already used. However, merely deprecating these conflicts, and complaints, as "conspiracy theories" will be taken as POV OR & more negative SOAP, when such antagonism and attack are part of the documented history and sociology of, not just medicine & OMM, but competing scientific and business interests in general. Whole departments on the "History of Science" have sprung up since my college days to document these type phenomena & their impact as part of their sociological study of the scientific process.--TheNautilus (talk) 20:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If you can provide some more secondary sources that discuss the idea that OM is being actively suppressed, that would be very useful. Academic reviews of the origin and development of these ideas would be preferable, but books on the topic from respected publishing houses and mainstream newspapers would also be perfectly acceptable. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The "suppression" edit, as is, isn't correct. For one, Evelleen Richards' book doesn't speak that way. Also broad "alternative medicine" travails should not be generalized to OMM since the character of broad alt med is quite different than OMM.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The references all comment on megavitamins as one of the alternative medicine belief systems that have generated conspiracy theories about "cure suppression". This is what the sources say, so this is what the article should say, if you believe OM is different, please provide secondary sources that state that it is different and we can include that other point of view as well. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the book reference, since you added that to the list of references on if there was an "active effort to suppress the findings of OM" I'm a bit surprised you now say that it does not say this. Could you supply a replacement? Tim Vickers (talk) 00:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, found a good quote from Hoffer on the subject. Tim Vickers (talk) 01:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The suppression argument is a political argument. Hence, sources outside the medical peer-reviewed literature is also acceptable as RS. Just to take one example[20], Life Extension Magazine, they have a medical advisory board[21] and should probably be considered a RS in this matter. MaxPont (talk) 09:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Quackwatch has a medical advisory board as well. I think we should stick to the highest-quality sources that we can find. Moreover Life Extension is a commercial organisation selling nutrient supplements link, which raises a question in my mind as to conflicts of interest. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

POV, OR; ref support problems

This sentence needs substantial rework[22] discussed as follows:

Richards[23] was the most substantial reference on politics between medicine & OMM; it should be a larger consideration in any text. Refs [155] & [157] are inadequate to poor references for any such statement. Still working on finding [156] beyond its abstract. This current wording does not appear to conform to its sources: Mainstream medicine regards such ideas as unsubstantiated conspiracy theories,[155][156]...

• ref [155] by two *marketing* professors, at lower tier universities, using very stale dated sources from partisans, that in several cases are now known to be "markedly biased", obsolete, erroneous, and/or making misleading or misrepresented assertions, particularly about OMM.
• An article [155] by individual authors with very stale, biased references generally, and no basis to measure the medical profession's opinions, do not constitute a V, RS source for "mainstream medicine regards..."

with a review in Journal of Clinical Oncology stating that the idea there is a conspiracy amongst physicians against unconventional and unproven treatments is a common theme in forms of alternative medicine such as megavitamin therapy.[157]

• The "megavitamin" as used in this article appears to go well beyond OMM or even any "megavitamin" into broader alternative nutrition practices.
• This wording engages in OR, creating an even more sweeping statement than the authors (Gertz, Bauer, 2003)[157] engaged, even with some descriptive errors.
• A stale article or two by individual authors do not constitute a V, RS source for "conspiracy...", especially in any derogatory sense.
• Source [157] stating A nonjudgmental dialogue becomes paramount..., then immediately recommends (promotes) a known unreliable site, a site particularly unreliable on this subject, OMM & OMM topicsc. Where "harsh", "militant", "systemic bias", "unsupported opinions, "innuendo" are descriptors appearing in mainstream publications about the unreliable site, casts serious doubt on the weight of this source.

All in all, SOAPy with undue POV, weight. This sentence[24] really needs to be redone more neutrally, better sourced, and use better source to text correspondence--TheNautilus (talk) 12:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The sources seem perfectly adequate considering the topic - fringe and pseudoscience don't get much attention from mainstream, high-impact sources. I've see the "It's an EEEEEEVIL conspiracy" before, it's a sourced idea, and we've even a policy that points out conspiracy accusations should be met with skepticism (WP:REDFLAG). Proving a conspiracy requires high-quality sources; claiming and rebutting such claims do not require Science or Nature. That there are several references, focussed on regulatory agencies and addressing megavitamin therapy specifically, and one of them is pubmed indexed, suggests that this is indeed an appropriate wording. It's got sources, appropriate ones, in multiple, it's clearly attributed and it's hardly a histrionic wording. I think it's fine and should stand as is. The publication dates are also quite satisfactory - 2003 and 1998 are plenty recent enough and have sufficient historical and contemporary context to suggest that it's a recent opinion not dealing with just the arguments from the 70s. WLU (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

One doctor156 spouting off in favor of a known unreliable site spreading material cited elsewhere in mainstream journals as "markedly biased", "fraudulent misrepresentation", "omission", "innuenndo" doesn't show a "mainstream medical" consensus that's OR & COATRACK. Two marketing profs[156] using the word "megavitamin" once, ambiguously (OMM vs common "skeptic" non-OMM usages) who also note the lack of general support, the relative failure of the anti-quackery movement, per my previous comment, below.

A little bit of common sense, please. There's no authoritative evidence of conspiracy, just hysterical nutters who need an excuse for not being accepted. We hardly needed something like a Lanclet reference to say "this is basically rubbish" (paraphrased of course). Jefffire (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I think it's worthwhile putting in that OMM thinks there's a conspiracy, as well as these counter-claims that there's no. Either both statements, or neither, but I'm leaning towards both. OMM is not unique in claiming a Big Pharma/FDA/"they hate our effective cures because vitamins are cheap" conspiracy, but the sources are there for this page so I think it's worth including. The whole point of having UNDUE, FRINGE and REDFLAG is to deal with topics that are not mainstream but still notable and this is a situation where their nuancing regarding sources seems quite appropriate. WLU (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it is particularly useful to put these claims of a conspiracy against OM into context. Such claims are not unique to this area of alternative medicine and the article would be misleading if it implied that they were. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Dismissive, deprecating phrasing such as "conspiracy theories" is a red flag, considering that criminal (NY AG) and (successful e.g. Wilk) civil actions have taken place with mainstream medical groups, is WP really the place to continue derogatory personal & partisan opinions with references that don't match the text and references that rely upon known (fraudulent) misrepresentations?

Tim's (and WLU's restored) text:Mainstream medicine regards such ideas as unsubstantiated conspiracy theories,[156][157] presenting it as broadly founded opinion. Whereas reference[156]: notes that the relative failure of the anti-quackery movement... doesn't sound so monolithically supportive.--TheNautilus (talk) 10:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it is better to avoid the C word. Look at the definition of Conspiracy. Mostly it is about breaking the law in collusion with others. The closest definition in this context is actually a "cabal". A seldom used word. Maybe the term suppression is less inflammatory. (PS. Statements like "hysterical nutters" does not further a collaborative atmosphere.) MaxPont (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"Conspiracy" is the word Abram Hoffer chose when he discussed the topic, the article quotes him directly and his meaning is quite clear. I agree that calling this group of alternative medical practitioners "hysterical nutters" is not particularly constructive, particularly since some of the editors of this page well may be directly involved in OM. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

That Hoffer used conspiracy makes it pretty unambiguous, and that's also the tone I've seen used to describe it, and I agree with the context of "in/against alternative medicine as a whole". It's important to portray the perception that companies and regulating agencies are deliberately and actively working against OMM (hence a conspiracy), its debatable if we have to stick close to the legal definition. Really, I have no problem with the text as it is/was before TheNautalis' revert this morning. WLU (talk) 20:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added some text on Matthias Rath as well, a OM practitioner who worked closely with Pauling for many years and was a director at the Linus Pauling Institute. Could you have a look at this? I didn't include his more outlandish claims, but his idea that antiretrovirals are part of a pharmaceutical company conspiracy seemed to fit well with the subject of this section. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:14, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Hm...Rath's wiki page, and none of the sources use the words "orthomolecular", which makes my brow wrinkle. I'd have to review the whole page to see how closely and well referenced the supports for OMM=Vitamin therapy is, and I've not the time for that now. Is it a SYNTH? Tough call, something to watch out for. He's published in the JOMM so that's definitely adding to the credibility of the assertion. WLU (talk) 20:38, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I looked into him since he's been listed as in this article one of the Notable supporters of orthomolecular medicine for many years added in 2006. Apart from the fact that he's published in JOM as one of Pauling's co-authors link, listed as a notable contributor to JOM link and worked as a director at the Linus Pauling Institute. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Meh, I wouldn't have put it in, but I see the link and do not feel strongly enough to advocate for its removal. I'd really like to see a statement about how he's an OM practitioner or advocating in South Africa as such. That'd seal it for me. WLU (talk) 22:54, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

An Orthomolecular Theory of Human Health and Disease Linus Pauling and Matthias Rath. JOM 6:3 1991 - that's pretty conclusive to my mind. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, Hoffer says here (1994) that Matthias Rath "has charged Pauling with stealing his ideas about vitamin C and its role in the genesis of arteriosclerosis. The suit has not been settled". Looking through JOM,[25] Rath's only role throughout that journal appears to be as coauthor with Pauling in the Vitamin C/heart disease thing. He's a notable supporter, sure, but it may be somewhat misleading to put him in the list of "notable supporters", as he doesn't seem closely associated with the movement itself -- more like tangentally associated. II | (t - c) 03:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

It was Lumos3 who added him to the list of notable OM practitioners, back in 2006. Being mentioned in the JOM as a notable contributor and co-autoring a review of OM with Pauling seems to make him a pretty central figure to me. Here is his website, he seems to have re-branded OM as "cellular medicine" but all he sells is dietary supplements. Tim Vickers (talk) 03:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Mathias Rath is most notable to OMM for the period ca 1989-1992 for his papers with Pauling concerning Lp(a) plaque materials prevented or dissolved with ascorbate, lysine & proline. After that, crossing Hoffer and the Paulings, and some types of statements certainly strained any formal associations with OMM related societies (e.g. ISOM, LPI). Looking at MR's supplements, they use a few more components than common multivitamins but are, in many components far less potent or complete, looking much different than those recommended by figures such as Hoffer, Cathcart, Klenner, Wright or Atkins. Rath has become something of a political, commercial & PR personna, representing himself, not OMM groups or OMM recommendations. Perhaps it would be fair to say the relation of Rath's "Cellular Medicine" to OMM appears more like that of Spanish and Portuguese. Quoting Rath "as OMM", after the early 1990s blowout appears to be OR, SYNTH that needs more sourcing. Again, random vitamins & nutrients per se are not synonymous with OMM. Rath's departure with the OMM pioneers LP & Hoffer is documentable.--TheNautilus (talk) 10:14, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Still continuing to use Rath as derogatory OR & SOAP, Rath was only notable (and published) for CVD in OMM, not AIDS. Criticizing Catholics for Martin Luther's actions after nailing the theses would be similar.--TheNautilus (talk) 05:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The sources I have provided demonstrate that Rath is highly notable for his treatment of AIDS with vitamins. His links to OM and in particular Pauling are now documented in the article and we even have a source from Hoffer listing him as a notable contributor to JOM. The fact that you did not object to the article listing him as a prominent proponent of OM for the past two years makes your sudden conversion to the view that he is unrelated to OM rather unconvincing. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

That's your specious OR on an OMM link to Rath & AIDS now. Rath's CVD papers are still notable to OMM. However he still seems to be a nonperson at JOM now with no mention or reference in recent OMM/JOM AIDS papers where it would be obvious to reference fellow OMM authors or even fellow travellers. *Your* previous citation from JOM, 1991. II then showed Hoffer listing Rath as an outstanding critic of Pauling (implictly OMM), listed right along with Senator Joseph McCarthy, Joseph Stalin and Victor Herbert ! As of 1994, Rath is divorced from OMM, with prejudice, but his previous CVD work supported OMM & remains notable to OMM. You are just persistently COATRACKING Rath and AIDS politics to OMM with specious OR.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

So Rath's work is being suppressed by the OMM establishment on political grounds? :) Sorry, couldn't resist. MastCell ^Talk 17:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

So he was a notable OM practitioner when he wasn't an embarrassment, but now he has drawn criticism, his form of vitamin medicine is suddenly completely unrelated to your form of vitamin medicine? I'm not convinced by that argument at all. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

He is still a notable OM contributor, for his CVD-Lp(a) work 1989-1992. Just he has gone off doing his own things, separately from OMM, after a very public split. How might Rath's protocols be related by extensive OR? I am having a hard time deciphering that myself, so *your* Rath references alone are wholly inadequate. The other problem, beyond protocols' composition, admistration route, doses & frequency, is that how Rath is going about things may violate other OMM precepts, so a current V,RS linkage is important. In addition, there would be WEIGHT and redundancy issues. You are really having problems with SOAP and COATRACK, trying to conflate, inflate prejudicial assertions to attack this subject with an often mis- or ill-informed POV.--TheNautilus (talk) 18:29, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

He still cites his publications in JOM on his website as the "Leading Publications which lay down the foundation for Cellular Medicine" (link) and is listed as a "courageous modern day practitioner" along with Ralph Moss, Pauling and Hoffer in this letter to BMJ - all leading lights in OM (link). Here is an article describing these views on AIDS as coming from "orthomolecular medicine proponents" (link). I think you just need to accept that the evidence for this link is overwhelming, however much you may personally dislike the man or his claims. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Rath is grappling for legitimacy, citing everything in sight - e.g. the low dose Harvard study. It is OR to say OMM currently recommends or recognizes his AIDS work.

2. foundation for Cellular Medicine Judaism has foundational texts for Moslems, Catholicism and Protestants, despite all them saying or doing unkind things with each other across the centuries, and those that would conflate them.

3. a. Health World is not a V,RS source. b. HealthWorld cites nutrition, where both Rath and OMM are nutritional supporters. However, for the n^th time, many, probably most nutritional supporters are not OMM.

4. "courageous modern day practitioner" along with Ralph Moss, Pauling and Hoffer... another total miscite, Tim - the letter cited "Alternative Medicine" not "orthomolecular medicine." The BMJ letter's quote: Alternative Medicine can be very effective ... courageous modern day practitioners as Matthias Rath, Ralph Moss, Pauling, Hoffer, as well as... as Hulda Clark. Ralph and Hulda are not OMM either.

5. You are OR/offtopic citing vitamin studies willy nilly, here, leaping from evidence of AIDS benefit to disclaiming healthy children in the ==Use in AIDS== section.

6. I have no animus with Rath, rather you do on both Rath and OMM, very marked biases. You repeatedly show an overeagerness to slather anything negative - malicious rumors, OR, just plain wrong, or not even wrong, onto this article.--TheNautilus (talk) 20:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I see that no source is going to convince you of this link. How about you provide a source backing up your statements that the vitamin therapy provided by Rath is not OM? A review in JOM describing how his system is totally different from "official OM" would be a good start, or is your opinion on this just based on your own perceptions of what is and what is not OM? If you can find such a source, we could add it to the article. A major OM organisation clearly distancing themselves from Rath's ideas on AIDS treatment would solve my concerns entirely. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You are standing the situation on its head, with a chain of Original Research, misidentification and misrepresentation. You don't have WP:V,RS sources that show Matthias Rath's AIDS recommendations being accepted by JOM, Hoffer, Pauling, LPI, etc much less a V,RS source quoting Rath's claims as OMM's claims, where you are rewriting history here as is so popular with "skeptics", both on & off wiki. If OMM accepted Rath's protocols & results, you would easily have a V,RS source at JOM, LPI, one of Hoffer's acticles or books. A significant aids OMM claim will get plenty of coverage. After all, a big part the mainstream's complaint is that they can't get them to shut up, remember?

The problem here is that you don't want to to abide by WP:V, WP:RS on things that are patently not so, frequently misrepresented by various "skeptic" sources (WP:V, RS criticism of "skeptic" sources: "markedly biased", "systemic bias", "fraudulently misrepresented", etc), and not so surprisingly, often greatly misunderstood by ignorant, unfamiliar &/or newbie "skeptics". (1) You (pl) have attempted or introduced a number of errors associated with history and (general nutritionally related) definitions; (2) you (pl) (and some biased and/or non-expert "RS" sources) have conflated even less tested (or biological model/basis), non-OMM nutritional recommendations or associations as being those accepted within OMM sources (sources like Pauling, Hoffer, JOM, and a few other currently recognized OMM authors/editors); (3) you have conflated negative experimental results in mainstream nutrition trials that are not accepted OMM practices but rather simply off-target mainstream data, the most common kind in any drug & protocol development, a failure or not a final successful version. (e.g. if 5 out of 6 new drugs fail to come to market for lack of safety and efficacy, should we castigate pharma and mainstream medicine as "pseudoscience" because of the negative data from those failures? ); (5) as far as OMM distancing themselves from anyone to assume a connection, that seems to evade your OR/Crystal ball problem, a. Rath, Pauling & Hoffer already distanced themselves, as I mentioned, b. OMM accepts evidence, by a somewhat different manner, that does not exclude the possibility that Rath might yet come up with acceptable evidence of an acceptable nutritional approach/claims sometime - I could even cite instances where OMM, SJB & Victor Herbert appear to substantially agree on OMM / high dosage nutrients.

The assignation of Rath's nutritional AIDS claims to OMM violate WP:NOR, there are many nutritional groups and Rath's historical OMM contributions on CVD are entirely distinct and in the distant past. If your claim is so mainstream, it should be to show a V,RS source.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"Rath, Pauling & Hoffer already distanced themselves" - sources please, not assertions. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You're going against policy on NOR, RS, V. Rath co-auathored 4-5 papers on Lp(a) and cardiovasular disease with Pauling, 1990-1992, a long time ago in another LPI specified field (CVD). There are no papers during Pauling's life that he accepted *any* of Rath's views on AIDS, where Pauling himself was Rath's primary association with OMM. Former LPI cardiovascular researcher Rath sued Pauling (and LPI[26][27]) through his final illness and continued until at least Dec 1996. That's evidence of divorce with LPI & the Paulings. Hoffer's published remark about Rath is as prejudicially negative as Hoffer makes, more negative than I've seen Hoffer make on someone like even Victor Herbert, OMM bete noire extraordinaire, especially since Rath is not shy about filing lawsuits. Rath's AIDS papers are not even listed as a reference in any OMM work on AIDS as far as I can find.

Here's your Original Research: (1) there are *no* V,RS records presented on any OMM connection, since the 1994-1996 lawsuit or Pauling's death, to Rath; nor (2) any V,RS source showing OMM accepts or publishes any of Rath's AIDS work where OMM's lost connection to Rath was CVD and maybe cancer.

Please quit trying to misrepresent OMM's positions & associations with the campaign of innuendo, fabrication, and OR distortions here, they are your misinformed, -ing, highly unreliable suspicions & speculations about OMM, again.--TheNautilus (talk) 20:21, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

We seem to have reached an impasse here, I see Rath as a very notable figure in OM, and since he has been described as such in the article for the past two years with no objections from anybody, I suspect most other people must agree with this as well. Do you think posting a Request for Comment would help resolve this disagreement? Tim Vickers (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you should stick to policy, NOR, V, RS, and in the present state, perhaps BLP (very one sided against both Rath and OMM related persons). It is tiring to get tag teamed & outside misinformed QW-type bias on factual matters that violate policy. Rath has only been noted on the list, sort of a "see also", not in text[28]. Rath is *only notable to OMM* for the previous Lp(a) & CVD work but that is probably enough to stay on the list, whose title keeps changing, and that I have had bigger issues than bickering over some "see also" list about who was what.

Even if Rath were ingeniously more OMM connected to date, the list is probably about all the WEIGHT due him. Again, this is a serious issue of inneundo, fabrication and distortion, whether there is overwhelming "skeptic" opinion that can push such an OR, non-V,RS POV that can only degrade the observable (lack of) reliability of Wikipedia. In terms of V,RS factuality, you are not even close. You are just creating confusion about who & what are the reliable sources on OMM, using Rath's much later controversies in areas he's well outside his OMM work, where his AIDS projects & papers are unacknowledged and/or unaccepted by OMM, to disparage OMM. Rath himself has differentiated his nutritional practices as "Cellular Medicine" sometime after the 1994 split, that OMM doesn't recognize or refer to either. Where there are many less clinically, literature or scientifically based nutritional camps, you (pl) keep dumping these others on OMM's door step where convenient to your POV(s).--TheNautilus (talk) 23:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Was that a "yes" or a "no"? Tim Vickers (talk) 00:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a "no, I don't see any legitimate issue", just a POV not wishing to abide by WP:V, RS, NOR on misrepresentation as facts about living persons, where popular misunderstandings have been long fostered by (WP recognized) unreliable internet sites, scientifically challenged editors, and tag teams here that are a continuing problem.--TheNautilus (talk) 04:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it correct to say that we have sources indicating that Rath was once a prominent "orthomolecular" figure who worked and coauthored with Linus Pauling; that they susbequently had a political falling-out and Rath was "excommunicated"; and that Rath branched off into "cellular therapy" for HIV/AIDS? If so, would content along those lines be agreeable? MastCell ^Talk 18:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What is happening is that a "skeptic" hijacking is occurring with grat weight on Rath's subsequent AIDS controversies to trash the subject, which are notable only to Rath's biography. (1) Greatly undue WEIGHT in general e.g. Klenner, with over half of OMM's listed treatments, gets one sentence; (2) SYNTH & OR that Rath's papers and projects reflect OMM's positions (frankly it is hard to figure out where Rath is); (3) Rath distiguishes himself and his work as "Cellular medicine". Rath's biography is the place for most, or all, of this.

Pretty close, but my concern is that we have sources that show the lawsuit took place, but no sources on the effect this had on what sort of "vitamin medicine" Rath practices currently. After all, if two homeopaths sue each other that doesn't alter what they do - they will remain homeopaths until they stop treating diseases with water. Reading between the lines there is certainly ill-feeling, but I don't see the relevance of that to the fact that Rath has continued to try to treat disease with nutrients. I'm certainly open to noting that a disagreement over patents took place, but we must be cautious of reading too much into our sources. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Rath didn't hire on & write about AIDS with Pauling, JOM & LPI. Strictly speaking Rath is an MD. Following your logic, you should associate Rath's AIDS papers with all of the MDs, at least in Germany and the US. Linking his AIDS papers to OMM is strictly OR & SYNTH at this point. Some mainstream institutions have some nutrition testing in the AIDS area, acknowledge that nutrition is an important area of research. Likewise OMM, also OMM has far more nutrient dense treatments for AIDS than what you've shown for Rath. Rath still titles himself MD and practices, but doesn't call his work OMM. hmmm.--TheNautilus (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

That sounds excellent. We can even be specific: Rath headed the Linus Pauling Institute for such and such years, wrote one paper on Vitamin C/cardiovascular disease with Linus Pauling, and then sued Linus Pauling for stealing his idea. That's the extent of his work. We don't have sources per se saying he was excommunicated, but Hoffer stating that Rath is suing Pauling is pretty close, and functions as a proxy for that language. II | (t - c) 18:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Greatly undue weight. Only Rath's CVD work would even be notable to OMM.--TheNautilus (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Rath authored several papers with Pauling, a review of OM in general with Pauling, and then several papers and reviews on the topic of his own. This is why Hoffer describes him as one of the "pioneers in orthomolecular medicine" on the JOM website (link). However, I'm fine with adding a note about the lawsuit, what's the best source for that? Tim Vickers (talk) 18:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How does this look to people? Does this solve our problem? Tim Vickers (talk) 21:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me. II | (t - c) 22:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Totally off key. Rath was a shooting cardiovascular star that exploded in the OMM sky in 1994, never publishing papers on AIDS at JOM & LPI. Rath is a minor figure getting far more play than much more important figures like Klenner. All this material is relevant to his biography, not OMM without a lot better V,RS sources that his treatments are recognized by OMM.--TheNautilus (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be the only person arguing against this now. I'd really recommend you pursue dispute resolution rather than edit-warring for your preferred version. An article RfC on this topic could be a useful step, like we used to gain a consensus for the current lead. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

You are using a false "consensus" to push derogatory WP:OR.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:58, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

*naturalists*, not naturopathic

Move this edit on naturopathic medicine here for discussion. Among many real differences with naturopathic medicine, this one is questionable and is *not supported* by the Owen Fonorow reference: (1) Fonorow wrote "naturalist", including Thomas Cowan, MD. (2) no "naturopath-" anything was found on my PDF search of the Fonorow reference, (3) Fonorow, a naturopath, is defending against the "naturalist Vitamin C" position. Although the article *might* warrant some brief mention of distinctions between naturopathic medicine and OMM, I have to caution that this is very tricky given the splits between naturopathy, licensed naturopathic medicine and possible variations, and is likely to quickly wander offtopic.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:16, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

"lower dosage, or less comprehensive, micronutrient therapies"

What source states that the AIDS trials examined by the Cohrane Collabouration in 2005 were "low dosage and less comprehensive"? The source cited for this statement was from 1995, which obviously could not make any comment on a meta-analysis performed in 2005. If this statement cannot be attributed to a reliable source, it may be original research. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Some individual tests in the meta-analysis have been thusly criticized. Also OMM's general complaint, repeatedly published, about the (very few) dbRCT tests' massive underdosing and incomplete basic packages being misrepresented as OMM protocol "replication" or "comprehensive (dis)proof" applies. E.g. please let us know if you see a Cochrane therapeutic nutritional AIDS review with 100 - 300 grams/day IV & oral vitamin C plus *all* the enhanced levels of micronutrients discussed in JOM, especially selenium, L-glutamine, L-tryptophan, cysteine, other minerals and vitamins. N.B. Before some even start on the PS ², pls bear in mind some of the OMM pioneers in AIDS treatment during the 1980s, had also been pioneers in applying antiretroviral therapy in the early 1980s...before they felt compelled to look for other, more effective answers with far fewer side effects.--TheNautilus (talk) 05:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an incorrect interpretation of the article. Vitamin C in those dosages just make for a Vitamin-C rich urine. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 14:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

...expensive urine, poor bs. You realize you are quoting an author frequently considered an error prone, maniac that had to be rebutted by mainstream doctors & scientists when he got too dangerous (e.g. his vitamin C mistakes like on B₁₂ and, separately, iron overload) as well as screaming in hearings (NY regents), courts, and on TV (Nightline, etc) as well as his dbRCT denialism po'g Pauling enough to start the Vitamin C... book series. Vitamin C at high blood levels allows neutralization of histamine (Clemetson) and other toxins (1930s+), avoids stress/toxin related C depletions, keep leucocytes charged, and then at higher levels, cytocidal to many cancer cells (Levine, NIH papers post 2000). Anything left over in the urine, *cheaply* (2c/gram) helps prevent a number of urinary precipitates, observable with some high school science skills. Also Tulane med school had work showing a benefit to prevent recurrence of bladder cancers.--TheNautilus (talk) 18:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The point is that if you do not provide reliable sources that criticise the meta-analysis, you cannot criticise the meta-analysis based on your own opinions. If no sources are provided this addition will be removed. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The wording can be improved and more references brought in. As always, it takes me a lot more time and effort to get good hard copies of the underlying references than many here who have good libraries but won't use them.--TheNautilus (talk) 18:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

what the Cochrane report on AIDS really said

I just got a look at the whole Cochrane Review (2005) on micronutrients & HIV, tonight. This summary is all messed up as related to OMM and it does not even properly reflect the literal words of the Cochrane report well. i.e. Tim says, ... A meta-analysis of fifteen clinical trials of vitamin therapy by the Cochrane Collaboration. Well, the Cochrane review (2005), CD003650, absolutely says it is not a meta-analysis, twice:

• p.1 A meta-analysis was not deemed appropriate due to significant heterogeneity between trials.
• p.3 Significant heterogeneity between studies precluded a meta-analysis.

The AIDS section needs a radical overhaul for V,RS factuality and OMM relevance.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I snipped the word "meta-" from before the word analysis in this sentence. Problem solved! :D Jefffire (talk) 09:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So, several similar analysis showed nothing. OK, I'm good with that. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 15:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is more precisely termed a "systematic review"; technically, since the authors did not pool the patient populations and re-analyze them statistically, there was no "meta-analysis". I'm not sure that this distinction necessitates a radical overhaul, though. MastCell ^Talk 21:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I'm so used to seeing "Cochrane" and "Meta-analysis" together that my fingers do the thinking for me! Tim Vickers (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The Cochrane review has essentially nothing to do with OMM level treatment protocols, again confusing random "nutrition experiments" with OMM's *much different* version of optimum treatment. Except for retinol/b-carotene & vitamin E, the *highest* of these trials might look like incomplete, lowish OMM multivitamin-minerals for healthy, uninfected people, rather than OMM's AIDS support. (e.g. all tests were less than the OMM "RDA range" for vitamin C in normally healthy people) The Cochrane listed trials *totally miss* the heavy nutrient doses considered most important to OMM recommendations for therapeutic AIDS trials. E.g. For vitamin C: all trials missed the dosage envelope of OMM level vitamin C for AIDS (15 to ~240 grams/day oral C &/or up to 180 grams IV C in a day) by orders of magnitude, the "highest" three trials missed the *lowest* Cathcart^[29]-Priestley targets by "only" 1+ to 2 orders of magnitude. To raise AIDS patients' glutathione peroxidase, OMM discusses extra selenium (400-1000 mcg) and grams of amino acids, N-acetylcysteine (1.8-3gm), L-glutamine (e.g. 10-40gm), L-tryptophan (2-4+ gm),^[30] recommended for therapeutic trials, components totally missing in Cochrane. No mention of consideration of grams per day of betaine hydrochloride and pancreatic enzymes to aid impaired nutrient absorption, either, among Cochrane's other missing OMM components for AIDS support. This is not even close, just biased SYNTH & OR, confusing some kind of nutrition, single variable experiments or desperate (mainstream, too) experiments, with actual OMM therapeutic recommendations.

On some tests in Cochrane, the individual ones least distant from OMM level treatments (still quite far), Cochrane's comments could be described as "promising, needs more testing": --TheNautilus (talk) 13:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting OR, but no use to anybody here. Have you considered starting a blog or something? Tim Vickers (talk) 13:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

It is *your OR*, Tim. There's absolutely no mention of OMM in Cochrane, just some random nutrient tests that do not correspond to OMM therapeutic protocols. I've V,RS cited part of the published OMM protocols for your background. WP:OR is frequently (mis)quoted against source based research here. It might be more correct to cite the criticized protocol and then add a corresponding, V,RS cited result. Your wholesale implication of any relation between Cochrane's AIDS coverage and OMM therapeutic protocols is OR & SYNTH that doesn't survive factchecking. You are just pushing an unscientific POV, a personal opinion.--TheNautilus (talk) 15:58, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Could you give me more information on these "published OMM protocols? Under what authority do they have to be referred to as definitive protocols here? I might have missed it, but I can't find a section on legally recognized OMM accreditation in the article. My naive interpratation of that would be that anyone could set themselves up as an "OMM practicioner", do whatever they want (within the law), and that these published guidelines are essentially worthless as far as determinining what OMM is.

Also, instead of a blog you might consider [www.wiki4cam.org] as a suitable alternative to wikipedia. Jefffire (talk) 15:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

J Orthomolecular Medicine and Hoffer's & others books more recently, Pauling's books contain some of the earlier, lower level OMM protocols. Often the protocols are ranges based on a methodology (e.g. "titration" or "bowel tolerance") and individual (contraindications) indications. "Conventional" authors often completely fail to even minimally apply these instructions. The orthomolecular authors often can be identified by multiple direct cites by V,RS sources and current associations.

Thanks, never heard of www.wiki4cam.org. Only CAM practitioners can participate in this wiki. So I couldn't participate if I wanted. My explanations here aren't blogging, just trying to fill in basic facts to total mischaracterizations, misunderstandings and 2nd, 3rd, 4th-hand misrepresentations. I do notice that a number of the QW susceptible editors here are QW-related bloggers and internet warriors with many years of experience, litigation, and/or in competing occupations.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

So, in other words, I'm right. There is absolutely no official authority to your declarations of what is and is not orthomolecular medicine, and any "orthomolecular practicioner" can freely violate these guidelines you've provided and still call themselves such. Jefffire (talk) 08:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

wtf

OrangeMarlin's edit[31] is undiscussed and its basis not apparent to me (not AIDS denialism, the major report of a scientific body of a country addressing a national crisis and a foreign medical journal (3rd world) with a non-fractional impact factor). It certainly was not vandalism and looks like an abuse of Twinkle to me, as well as severe POV going off topic with Rath. note to OM--TheNautilus (talk) 10:17, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

As a content dispute of the relative value of references, this is appropriately resolved here. However, I'm puzzled by this claim that it "looks like an abuse of Twinkle", as the edit looks well within policies to me. . . dave souza, talk 10:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like an apology and a refactoring of the personal attack. A review of Twinkle policies states clearly that it is not prima facie evidence of calling an edit vandalism. Editors should review policies before making a specious accusation. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 14:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Criticizing an undiscussed edit is not a personal attack. An edit that from my perspective completely lacked basis (replacing one critically one-sided newspaper article with two medical articles from the country involved, one a government blue ribbon panel, the other a prime medical journal there) being used to push a POV by attacking a now unrelated person.

I have seen admins revoke TW users' privilege for their usage of TW for rollback of even rather meritless, truculent edits rather than removing vandalism. Some admins apparently see (saw?) TW for vandalism patrol work only.

I am still waiting for a simple explanation of my good faith edit where your TW edit looks like a failure to edit with a NPOV, trying to start a revert war with a provocative undiscussed edit to remove improved refrences, and, now, to avoid a simple explanation if there is any possible content misunderstanding.--TheNautilus (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The question of whether or not you've put forward adequate references is addressed in earlier sections, your assertion about seeing admins revoke TW users' privilege is original research, please cite the relevant policy or accept that your interpretation is unsupported.

Your accusation of "especially abusive" usage is a personal attack, but since I notice that OrangeMarlin has chosen to disengage rather than take the matter further then you're welcome to simply drop the point and accept that his usage of twinkle is entirely proper. Feel free to start another section if you want to discuss content and sources rather than making accusations about other editors' actions. . . dave souza, talk 09:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Dave, I provisionally accept your explanation that Twinkle's use is now accepted beyond rv vandal edits. I did read Twinkle and its verbiage on policy was sufficiently vague to not disagree with my previous observations of administrative actions and discussions about restrictions on TW use. And there do appear to be policy problems with OrangeMarlin's edit.

The question of whether or not you've put forward adequate references is addressed in earlier sections This is not factually correct - those discussions, above, concern other text and references that are also unfinished business because of POV, incompletion and error that I am being required to get overwhelming references by "skeptic" editors. The new references[32] that OrangMarlin deleted[33] without discussion were *brand new references* from 2 mainstream medical sources replacing a POVish, one sided newspaper article. I've asked OrangeMarlin for an explanation several times now, where his action to me had several problems and now appear as manuever as smoke, stink and evasion at my expense.

OrangeMarlin's response condescendingly[34] indicates his knowledge of prior TW restrictions or perceptions of restriction on TW as solely for vandal fighting that may involve administrative vagaries or inconsistencies. Since I am not a TW user, I had read the Twinkle article, and it did not appear inconsistent with my previous observations of administration on TW, just vague. Rather than complain at AN, I allowed some possibility that there might be some misunderstanding on his or my part on content so that I did ask for an explanation[35] where I do feel abused. I asked first, despite the (1) undiscussed deletion of mainstream references, one from a national medical journal, the other a large governmental blue ribbon panel's medical report that may simply contradict his POV, (2) done in a manner that is provocative, lacked WP:AGF, and where TW appears accusatory and insulting to non-TW users, including "skeptics" as recently as 2007-8, (3) to revert to an inferior off-topic reference that is the first cycle of edit warring, (4) where the material is being used to push a POV or one-sided SOAP on an off-topic BLP, TV-OM's OR aspects still being discussed above.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

TW? AN? SOAP? TV-OM? BPL? OMGWTFBBQ? Skinwalker (talk) 23:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

TLDR Tim Vickers (talk) 00:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

ROFLMAO. Skinwalker (talk) 01:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

OMG TAG-TEAMING!!!!!!1oneeleven Shot info (talk) 03:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No discussion of the two references?--TheNautilus (talk) 04:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:TLDR. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 15:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there a lot of problems here with editors not reading enough. Thanks for the confirmations.--TheNautilus (talk) 13:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Somebody should read the essay - in that way they might understand why their edits appear to have no impact. Shot info (talk) 23:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Gerson therapy

What exactly does Gerson therapy have to do with OM? It is mentioned in the history section, but I can't see the relevance from how it is described currently. Tim Vickers (talk) 15:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I would conjecture that Gerson believed inter alia that his dietof fresh vegetables was rich in nutrients that the modern diets of processed foods may not adequately provide. I agree with you that the inclusion in its present form can be seen to be disjointed; but when you consider that Shute, Szent-Györgyi and others were really into wheat germ oil, with its very high Vitamin E content, it does seem like a logical transition.--Alterrabe (talk) 09:15, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The JOM has honored Max Gerson in their "Hall of Fame", but I would be fine with removing it. II | (t - c) 09:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to remove it if it really is relevant, but at present the article doesn't make the link clearly. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Merge discussion

• Propose merge of Pyroluria here, as it has little or no notability outside the Orthomolecular approach. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I have surveyed the sources which discuss the topic of Pyroluria - see its talk page for links. They seem ample to support an article upon the subject. Since it is a highly specific condition, it is not appropriate to merge all that content into this article, which is a more general account of the theory and history of this branch of medicine and so should not become burdened with a lengthy catalogue of specific conditions. Note also that this article is already 85K and so editors are advised that it may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The article is based almost entirely on two books of dubious quality. A challenge to those sources would probably not stand, so what exactly is 'Ample'? Guyonthesubway (talk) 12:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose For the same reasons.--Alterrabe (talk) 18:26, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support merge the concept only exists within the topic of this page, is barely noteable (certainly not outside of the topic of this page). Much of the material in the Pyroluria is either poorly sourced or redundant in terms of this page, so it would make very little difference to the size. Verbal chat 19:02, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• weak support, although eventual split within WP:SS should remain an option. We need to sort out which parts of this topic are actually notable, and which are idle blather. If it turns out that "Pyroluria" is of significant notability within the topic of orthomolecular medicine, it can be made a sub-article, but it does not appear to have sufficient notability to remain unquestioned as a standalone article. --dab (𒁳) 19:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose If the article is to be merged, better to go into orthomolecular psychiatry, since it seems to be a largely psychological hypothesis. With 20 references, however, it seems too large to be merged into another article.II | (t - c) 19:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• Alternative proposition, redirect the aricle to Major biotypes in orthomolecular medecine and include in it Histapenia, Histadelia, Pyroluria, Allergies, Fatty acids (both last ones in the context of orthomolecular medecine). Or else the supporters of this form of 'medecine' will be working to create several articles as if those have any relevency beyond the context of orthomolecular medecine. Inductionheating (talk) 17:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
  • That's an interesting idea. I for one would support it. As regards other ideas, a merge to orthomolecular psychiatry is OK, preserving what useful info there is. 20 refs to what? There doesn't seem to be any useful sourcing outside of the CAM community. Moreschi (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose merger with orthomolecular medicine. The article has established notability with multiple citations and Wikipedia is not paper. Lumos3 (talk) 11:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The number of citations is a very poor indicator because most sources provided have little to do with pyroluria which is in the context of orthomolecular medecine, but more to do with pyrrole. This way of throwing citations here and there will make of any misterious, weird positions not worthy of any space as relevent as an article about diabete. Inductionheating (talk) 19:46, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support or one of the other merges. The stand-alone article rests on two sources, one is apparently self-published and the other is from a fringe press. It is in no way well sourced or notable on its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guyonthesubway (talk • contribs) 13:19, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
• Merge but I think it would be best to merge to orthomolecular psychiatry.--CrohnieGal^Talk 15:35, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support The sources with direct bearing on the actual topic don't seem (to me, anyway) to suffice for a stand-alone article. Has notability been established even for inclusion in this article? Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:04, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
• oppose: Noteworthy topic that should not be overlooked. Ombudsman (talk) 00:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
• Support merge per dearth of independent in-depth coverage. - Eldereft (cont.) 05:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Orthomolecular Medicine is a general theory that makes no specific claims here. As such the merger helps neither and may hinder both. It may be used to bolster one weakly held idea with another purely by association. Is this really in Wikipedias best interest? It is a pity and a problem that the concept/reality of the cryptopyrole has no chemical structure that I can find. Until such time as the compound can be identified or has been given a chemical or biochemical signature so that it can be recognized by a chemist, biochemist, pharmacologist, or the like it should not be referred to as other than a "reputed" or "hypothetical" compound. There is no such compound today. If there is any merge than it should be to inheritable disorders or biochemical abnormalities. beecherc
• Oppose. I don't see what's to be gained by doing this merge. This article is pretty much WP:TLDR, while the one on pyroluria is concise and the point that that particular hypothesis is not supported by evidence; but it is/was notable enough to be discussed, albeit briefly in mainstream journals, e.g. Nature PMID 5361661, Am J Pshychiary PMID 696910, Biol. Psychiatry PMID 1120177. There are other failed scientific concepts like polywater; that doesn't automatically mean they should be merge somewhere else. Xasodfuih (talk) 01:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Different categories, P is specific, OM is more general. --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Pharmaceutical Advertising Biases Journals Against Vitamin Supplements

This might deserve its own section in the article (?)...

..........................

Copyright violation replaced with link by - Eldereft (cont.):

Pharmaceutical Advertising Biases Journals Against Vitamin Supplements

.............................

ALSO: snippets only; full text on request:

Copyright violation replaced with link by - Eldereft (cont.):

Goodwin JS, Tangum MR. Battling quackery: Attitudes about micronutrient supplements in American academic medicine. Arch Intern Med. 1998;158:2187-2191

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Alan2012 (talk • contribs) 16:58, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Much as I prefer the open-access model of journal publishing, both the paper and the press release are under a license incompatible with the GFDL, and may not be hosted on Wikipedia servers. I have replaced the copied text with links to the suggested sources. - Eldereft (cont.) 01:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, how does this section help improve the article per WP:TALK?? Shot info (talk) 02:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course, Alan2012 fails to mention the huge vitamin supplement industry that used it's ill-gotten gains to essentially bribe the US Congress to pass laws that exempts these folks from real scientific analysis of their claims. I daresay the vitamin industry makes as much profit as the pharmaceutical industry does just to give the public some vitamin rich urine. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but those companys aren't true vitamin companies they are big pHarma! Shot info (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Good work, boys! Whatever you do, do NOT allow any truthful context to enter this article. In fact, do not even allow it to enter the discussion page! EXPUNGE IT! Alan2012 (talk) 16:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

---

WIKI POLICY: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use#Guideline_examples Acceptable use: Text: Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text must be attributed and used verbatim. Any alterations must be clearly marked, i.e. [brackets] for added text, an ellipsis (...) for removed text, and emphasis noted after the quotation as "(emphasis added)" or "(emphasis in the original)". Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited.

..... THEREFORE, here, in compliance with wiki policy, are BRIEF snippets from the original article, totalling about 350 words (out of the 4800 words in the original work). Full text is available by writing me, personally. Alan2012 (talk) 16:53, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/158/20/2187

PLEASE PRESS THE "SHOW" BUTTON ON THE RIGHT TO DISPLAY THE SNIPPETS

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Archives of Internal Medicine Vol. 158 No. 20, November 9, 1998 Battling Quackery Attitudes About Micronutrient Supplements in American Academic Medicine By James S. Goodwin, MD and Michael R. Tangum, MD INTRODUCTION "THROUGHOUT THE 20th century American academic medicine has resisted the concept that supplementation with micronutrients might have health benefits. This resistance is evident in several ways: (1) by the uncritical acceptance of news of toxicity, such as the belief that vitamin C supplements cause kidney stones; (2) by the angry, scornful tone used in discussions of micronutrient supplementation in the leading textbooks of medicine; and (3) by ignoring evidence for possible efficacy of a micronutrient supplement, such as the use of vitamin E for intermittent claudication." [...snip...] "[L]et us review some of the words [used to describe vitamins and vitamin therapy in standard medical textbooks]: 'massive, carelessness, useless, indiscriminate, false, indefensible, wasteful, insidious, unnecessary, deplored, and poor medical practice.' Over the last several decades there have been many areas of medical practice about which uncertainty and controversy exist, and these are well covered in the various editions of these 2 textbooks; they include the drug treatment of hyperlipidemia and hyperglycemia, surgical vs medical treatment of angina, and indications for tonsillectomy or hysterectomy. But in none of these discussions does one encounter the contemptuous descriptions found in the discussions of multiple vitamins." [...snip...] "Negative attitudes about micronutrients did not evolve recently; they have deep roots. The resistance of the medical community to the concept that scurvy, beri-beri, and rickets were caused by vitamin deficiencies has been well documented.[47-51].... The pathologists who dominated academic medicine in the late 19th and early 20th centuries lacked the vocabulary to integrate the public health observations of vitamin deficiency into a pathophysiology dominated by the germ theory.[49,50] A popular term used to describe vitamin deficiency disease, negative causality, evidenced the pathologists' awkwardness in grappling with the idea.[47,49,50]" [...snip...] "There are many factors that influence the adoption of new medical treatments other than strict consideration of efficacy, toxic effects, and cost.[5,6,54-57] For example, the financial incentives conferred by patent protection that stimulate the aggressive marketing of new pharmaceuticals were lacking in the case of micronutrients.[55] However, these factors do not explain the anger and scorn illustrated in the quotations from medical textbooks given earlier. Where did the emotion come from? Why did academic medicine deploy the language of denunciation against proponents of vitamin supplements?"

We can all read that article for ourselves, in fact I had read it already. This article has to reflect the views of mainstream medical experts on this form of alternative medicine, the Goodwin article could certainly be cited in this article, but a single source cannot be used to alter the balance of the text. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

1. "We can all read that article for ourselves" --- no, in fact "we" can't. It is subscription-only content, not accessible by most. Hence the snippets are quite important.

2. "This article has to reflect the views of mainstream medical experts on this form of alternative medicine" --- An incoherent sentence. There are no "mainstream medical experts on this form of alternative medicine", by definition. None of the experts are mainstream. They have been defined-out of the mainstream by virtue of their interest and expertise in this form of alternative medicine.

3. I appreciate your attempt to prevent the inclusion in the article, and even on the discussion page, of relevant content which would give readers an accurate picture and context of the subject in question. Good work. Wiki depends on people like you.

Alan2012 (talk) 13:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

You don't seem to have noticed, Alan, that while you were railing about the suppression of this study by whatever conspiracy you believe exists here, User:Lumos3 added a discussion of this paper's conclusions to the article. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

off-topic discussion
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Wonderful! Glad to hear it. About the article inclusion, that is. Though it is unlikely to last long. You, or someone like you, will see to it that it gets trashed sooner or later. Typical wikipedia. "Conspiracy" btw is a silly word, or rather a word that has been turned into something silly (though it once had meaning). Most participants in what are wrongly called "conspiracies" are not consciously aware of their participation. "Group thralldom to a meme" would be a better way of putting it. Cheerio. 68.40.44.4 (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC) You don't seem to have noticed, Tim, this paragraph: "This article has to reflect the views of mainstream medical experts on this form of alternative medicine" --- An incoherent sentence. There are no "mainstream medical experts on this form of alternative medicine", by definition. None of the experts are mainstream. They have been defined-out of the mainstream by virtue of their interest and expertise in this form of alternative medicine." 68.40.44.4 (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC) To show the problem with this view, I will substitute "flat Earth" into this argument. It now becomes - There are no "mainstream experts on this form of geology", by definition. None of the experts on the flat Earth are mainstream. They have been defined-out of the mainstream by virtue of their interest and expertise in this form of geology." Tim Vickers (talk) 17:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Poor little Timmy Vickers. He hasn't got to the chapter on "Logical Fallacies" yet, else he might have encountered reductio ad absurdum. Conspiracies and ulterior motives are funny things. I mean, let's suppose, hypothetically, that someone is a paid marketing consultant to the makers of certain health-related products. And then they use Wikipedia solely as a platform to promote those marketing interests - filling talk pages with scientific-sounding claims of benefit and trying to remove information critical of the products they're paid to promote. That would be a real conflict of interest, and an abuse of Wikipedia. Wouldn't it, Alan? MastCell Talk 00:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC) Mastcell! My sweet Mastcell! Apple of my eye! It has been so long, and I have longed for you. Sentiment aside: your blather above barely rates worthy of the two minutes it is taking to type this. To my recollection (though surely your stalking habit would provide better info), Garlic was the only page I ever bothered seriously to edit, including things like citations to rock-solid studies and meta-analyses that were promptly trashed and never re-instated. I also recall a long go-around with you, from which I emerged aghast that Wikipedia senior adminstration and editing was being handled by the incredibly pedantic and blockheaded likes of you. It was a real eye-opener. But then, I was so naive at that time. I actually thought that Wikipedia stood for something -- for quality of content, truly democratic process, and so on. Needless to say, those fantasies were just that, as any even cursory google for information about Wikipedia will reveal. Anyway, I learned my lesson -- that any serious effort to improve Wikipedia was just a waste of time. I only recently decided to drop by now and then to post things on the discussion pages, with the idea that some poor soul who is still trying might want to include some version of said material in the actual article. But, whatever. I'm not invested in it, so the efforts of you and others to block discussion of new relevant information and other points of view on even the talk pages (!) causes me no loss of sleep. It is really just par for the course, as I learned. Wikipedia's relentless and well-deserved loss of credibility will certainly render any little gesture (such as this one, on my part) of no significance; hence I don't care what becomes of any of this. Oh, and regarding conflicts of interest, a couple things, quickly. I've never had ANY interest in garlic products or companies that produce them; hence it was odd that I spent so damn much time trying to improve the garlic article, was it not? And equally odd that I've spent ZERO time trying to edit pages that might have something to do with a commercial interest of mine -- wouldn't you say, Mastcell? Truth be told, the level of my interest in companies and products of any kind might be guaged by my average income over the past 20 years: about $10K/year. By choice. (Hey, let's just say it is my religion; my interests are intellectual and ethical, not commercial.) How does that compare with yours, Mastcell? I'll bet a top-flight onco-whatever like you, and hard-working shill for the multi-trillion-dollar medical/pharmaceutical/academic/industral complex, is well into six columns, with a lifestyle to match. That's something worth defending! And you do an excellent job of it. Your masters -- the owners of the colassally-wasteful, imperial and environmentally-ruinous system of which you are a part, and which you defend -- greatly appreciate your tireless efforts. As do I. 68.40.44.4 (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC) I really will miss this place. MastCell Talk 04:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC) The lack of rational response to the article is noted. --Michael C. Price talk 08:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC) ((Yawn)) Par for the course, of course. 68.40.44.4 (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC) 'NOTE Further violations of WP:TALK will be removed. This section will be archived shortly. Yours, Verbal chat 18:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Placed a Level 1 warning regarding WP:NOTAFORUM on the anonymous users talk page. They're just upset that real science shows that vitamins have no real purpose, except to manufacture profits for Big Vitamin and to create very expensive urine for the poor saps who buy into Big Vitamin's marketing message. And let's not forget one of the key points that define pseudoscience, "Assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of the scientific community to suppress the results."OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I hope we haven't forgotten that the paper in question draws its conclusions from a grand total of eleven journals. And it argues for an association, not that "advertising biases journals against...". The simplest explanation, IMHO, is that advertisers of clinically-proven products are less likely to market their wares in journals that publish lower-quality studies. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 23:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think pharmaceutical companies are the paragons of good behavior. But they are highly regulated, and employ scientists and medical practitioners left and right. Nutriceutical companies are even more slimy than pharmaceutical companies, and they aren't regulated (at least in the US), and employ chiropractors and charlatans. I'd rather go with the real science than the snake oil types. Of course, the history of Smith, Kline and French is that they were started with actual snake oil salesmen (well, let's say fake cures). :D OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources for medical information

There seems to be a minor edit war going on about this content "although it was reported, of this study, that high doses of folic acid and B vitamins may reduce cardiovascular disease. "The one exception to the overall finding was a possible lower risk of a heart attack among users of multivitamins with high doses of Folic Acid and B vitamins." These were removed and it was countered "Controversies or areas of uncertainty in medicine should be illustrated with reliable secondary sources describing the varying viewpoints -- cf WP:MEDRS". WP:MEDRS was referring to controversies among the scientific/medical community. The page was not implying that a primary medical source in a peer reviewed journal could be refuted with an unreliable secondary source (non medical journal). The page also states "The popular press is generally not a reliable source for science and medicine information in articles... they tend to overemphasize the certainty of any result, for instance presenting a new and experimental treatment as "the cure" for a disease, or an every-day substance as "the cause" of a disease". The sources in question are the Wall Street Journal and OncologyStat.com neither of which can be considered an RS of medical information. JamesStewart7 (talk) 14:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS was referring to controversies among the scientific/medical community. - yes of course, but vitamin usage is controversial, even within the medical community (which is why studies are done on the subject). As for whether the secondary sources are reliable, I note that the oncology source cites figures from the study which show a CVD HR of 0.75 for the high-dose B-vitamin users compared to the non-vitamin users. What justification is there for excluding this data? --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

So you're point is made. You can't show anything scientific about vitamin usage, so go to the non-peer-reviewed popular press. Thanks. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually I was showing something scientific about vitamin usage, something which you've avoided addressing. That would be in character, wouldn't it, looking at the hastily deleted portions of this talk page? So, to return to the science, we have some reliable secondary sources here, reporting positive stuff about vitamins, from the original study, and all of sudden, you and your cabal suddenly decide that it isn't fit to be published. Why is that?--Michael C. Price ^talk 00:38, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No, we have unreliable secondary sources. WP:MEDRS is quite clear. Media reports are not RS for medical information. Even if we ignore wikipedia policy and discuss this pragmatically there are a whole host of reasons for not including some cherry picked data. There are plenty of ways that you can mislead people by presenting small snippets of the data or ignoring methodological issues which is the reason the policy is there in the first place. JamesStewart7 (talk) 00:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The item that you decree has been "cherry picked" has been reported by at least two secondary sources -- that makes it notable (and not cherry picked). As for your reasons for excluding it, that would be OR, right, since you making inference from the primary source itself? At least people have stopped claiming that the claims are false (which they were claiming) -- I guess that's progress, of sorts. So go on, tell the methodological reasons for excluding this data from being reported here? --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore Mikey, WP:NPOV precludes us from giving undue weight to fringe theories. Because you cannot find a reliable secondary source that supports this quack medicine, you rely on poorly written unreliable sources. There is no controversy here--there is no evidence that massive amounts of vitamins do anything whatsoever. Please find a reliable source that says there is a controversy, and you may write away. Please read these words of advice carefully: there is only scientifically proven, evidence-based medicine supported by solid data or unproven medicine, for which scientific evidence is lacking. Whether a therapeutic practice is “Eastern” or “Western,” is unconventional or mainstream, or involves mind-body techniques or molecular genetics is largely irrelevant except for historical purposes and cultural interest… OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Please address the scientific issue here, namely the data reported by the secondary sources, that high dose B-vitamins reduced MI by 25%. --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Please show us an article that meets WP:MEDRS standards that show high dose B-vitamins does anything.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Long-term use (>15 years) of folate-containing multivitamin supplements produced an almost 5-fold reduction in the incidence of colon cancer. Multivitamin use, folate, and colon cancer in women in the Nurses' Health Study. Giovannucci E, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA, Hunter DJ, Fuchs C, Rosner BA, Speizer FE, Willett WC in Ann Intern Med 1998 Oct 1;129(7):517-24 PMID 9758570 --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

So, I checked to see what real science says about Vitamin B (all types) and cardiovascular disease. Let's see excessive amounts of folic acid may actually increase risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease.Sauer J, Mason JB, Choi SW (2009). "Too much folate: a risk factor for cancer and cardiovascular disease?". Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 12 (1): 30–6. doi:10.1097/MCO.0b013e32831cec62. PMID 19057184. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) One said there is more research needed for supplements (not orthomolecular levels).Righetti M (2009). "Protective effect of vitamin B therapy on bone and cardiovascular disease". Recent Patents Cardiovasc Drug Discov. 4 (1): 37–44. PMID 19149705. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) And another big trial said it does nothing."No cardiovascular help from B vitamins in high-risk women". Harv Womens Health Watch. 16 (1): 7. 2008. PMID 18807631. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help) There are 62 articles published regarding Vitamin B and CVD. I couldn't find one that supported your POV, Mikey. Time to move along. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Been there, done that... MastCell ^Talk 04:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It's the same thing with Evolution and other science articles. The same old arguments are made, the same valid refutation, the POV pusher moves on, and someone else comes in. BTW, I thought you were retired?????? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 04:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

When the attempt to report scientific finding is compared to creationism you know you're dealing with severely disturbed individuals. --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I, and I'm sure all others here welcome any attempts to report scientific findings. What you are doing is reporting heresay from unreliable sources which directly contradicts the scientific evidence at hand. Scientific findings are presented in scientific journals. Pull some references from scientific journals and we'll talk about including them. JamesStewart7 (talk) 11:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I rather doubt that everyone welcomes any attempt to report scientific findings -- obviously that's not the case or we wouldn't have the hysterical reactions we see. Now, as for reporting hearsay from unreliable sources, you are deeming the sources to be unreliable for no other reason than that you don't believe the data they are reporting. Have you checked the primary source (full text) against what the three secondary sources are reporting (all of whom have reputations to preserve and are not "pop media" despite everybody's attempts to smear them as such because they don't say what you want to hear)?

As for pulling some stuff from primary sources, you will see that I did that earlier today -- so far not one iota of feedback. --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, you have failed to read WP:MEDRS. WSJ is not a secondary source, it's more like tertiary. It is not peer-reviewed. It is biased. And I've responded to the useless studies you mentioned below. Typical of Creationists and Alt-Med types, you quote mine a few articles, ignoring the several hundred others that don't support your POV. I'm sure I can find an article that says multivitamins will cure everything from male pattern baldness to peeling off the fat. The 99% of other articles will not support that fringe view. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Wrong on every count: Tertiary sources are also fine for Wikipedia; reputable media (such as the WSJ) have internal fact checking procedures that act like peer-review. Try again. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Please review WP:MEDRS. Thanks. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

In addition to the study showing a 4-5 fold reduction colon cancer with long term folate use (PMID 9758570) have a look at Fifteen year mortality in Coronary Drug Project patients: long-term benefit with niacin. Canner PL, Berge KG, Wenger NK, Stamler J, Friedman L, Prineas RJ, Friedewald W in J Am Coll Cardiol 1986 Dec;8(6):1245-55 PMID 3782631 "With a mean follow-up of 15 years, nearly 9 years after termination of the trial, mortality from all causes in each of the drug groups, except for niacin, was similar to that in the placebo group. Mortality in the niacin group was 11% lower than in the placebo group (52.0 versus 58.2%; p = 0.0004)." Dose used = 2g – 3g/day for 6 years. The drop in mortality was only evident after 6-8 years.--Michael C. Price ^talk 16:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Mikey, your second source is not helpful to your case. It's about statins, and niacin helps. But not in massive quantities, and also as a part of several preventive therapies to prevent CVD. Niacin itself is not relevant, and you have provided nothing to show that. Your first study was too small, and the larger study, PMID 19204221, pretty much obliterates the use of vitamins in reducing cancer. You give too much weight to individual and old studies. This case is closed, and you are tendentious. Time to move on. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Once again, completely incorrect. Niacin was one of the 5 tested substances (two estrogen regimens, dextrothyroxine, clofibrate & niacin). All tested separately. And the amounts of niacin (2g – 3g/day) were way in excess of the RDA or however you wish to define it. The large study you say disproves the benefit of vitamins on cancer shows no such thing since its follow-up period is much less (8 years vs 15+). I should have thought that was obvious. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The most authoritative source I can find on this topic is PMID 16880453. (link to free-full text). - Tim Vickers (talk) 17:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

And their conclusion was "we don't know" Evidence is insufficient to prove the presence or absence of benefits from use of multivitamin and mineral supplements to prevent cancer and chronic disease.--Michael C. Price ^talk 18:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Orthomolecular involves different dosing and interventions than simply giving multivitamins. Needs something specifically referring to orthomolecular approaches, dosing, theory, etc., not just any source that references vitamins. Linking them otherwise is original research. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 23:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

That isn't the issue here. The issue is the NPOV reporting of a study which is claimed to rubbish vitamin usage. If the cabal wish to remove all reference to the study, fine -- although they'll have to remove 90% of the other references as well. --Michael C. Price ^talk 23:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

That OR problem is something we've always struggled with on this page. In short, I see people picking up any vitamin trial to support "orthomolecularism" if it has positive results, but denying any connection to similar trials if they have negative or no results. This cherry-picking is compounded by the fact that there are no accredited degrees in OM, no central authority, and little agreement between practitioners as to what it involves past "the use of nutrients to treat disease". Tim Vickers (talk) 23:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Why should there be degrees in OM? -- it's just a concept, and the definition you've given sounds fine to me, except that I would say "treat or prevent" rather than just "treat".--Michael C. Price ^talk 23:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Were institutes to offer degrees in "OM", that would constitute some sort of evidence for OM as a discipline. In fact, not only is OM not a recognised form of medicine, the term "orthomolecular" does not even appear in credible medical publications. OM proponents are so few, and so far to the fringe, that it's difficult even to define their ideas from reliable sources...which, in my opinion, remains at least good ten or fifteen paragraphs too long for purposes of weight. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

We've made these points over and over again. The fact is that there is little evidence that taking vitamins does much of anything, except in a very few circumstances, and even then, not at orthomolecular levels (whatever that is, which is another reason to dismiss this fringe area). We're really just discussing this with Mikey over and over and over, and he keeps bringing up the same stuff. Maybe it's time to end his tendentious discussions. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 01:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I would have thought that preventing over 80% of colon cancers (one of the most common cancers) with folic acid is obviously of great benefit in more a very few circumstances. And since we seem to be talking about vitamins in general now, the same applies to high dose vitamin D (>1000 IU/day; PMID 17556697), where the protective effect is a 77% reduction in total cancer incidence. --Michael C. Price ^talk 02:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. Except several letters to the editor complained about artifacts in their data (see PMID 18326621, for example). And of course, better studies, such as PMID 19001601, completely undermines the conclusions. Once again, please read WP:VERIFY, WP:MEDRS, WP:WEIGHT and WP:FRINGE. You have utterly failed to provide reliable sources to support anything even close to supporting your POV. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 03:39, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Wrong (again): Your OR is flawed: PMID 19001601 used 400 IU/d, as opposed to 1100 IU/d....... Also, they only looked at breast cancer, whereas the original study looked at total cancer incidence. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm tiring of your personal attacks. One more, and you're at ANI, with a request for a block. Retract your attack NOW. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

No retraction. Go ahead -- I've made no personal attack, just pointed out that your WP:OR was flawed, and why. --Michael C. Price ^talk 17:42, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Undent. The whole point of WP:FRINGE is that there are subjects which purport to be serious, that claim scientific backing or scholarly weight, that look to the casual, uninformed observer, to be something worth taking seriously, that has the veneer of science and credibility, but ultimately they are pseudoscientific, have no mainstream support, are not taken seriously, and the promoters of the concept scrupulously adhere to the appearance of actual science while resorting to special pleading and other excuses whenever tests of their theories come up short. Orthomolecular medicine is one of those theories. It may be on the fringe of acceptance, it may be on the verge of breaking into mainstream, it may have some merit, but it hasn't been demonstrated. Even though vitamins can be used to treat or prevent certain conditions, that doesn't mean orthomolecular medicine's approach is, or should be treated like anything but a fringe theory. It is undue weight and inappropriate to pretend otherwise. There's nothing in Science (journal) or Nature or JAMA or The Lancet or NEJM to give credit to the orthomolecular evidence. It should be reported as a medical phenomenon, but fundamentally can not make claims of efficacy, effectiveness, or successful treatment on wikipedia. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 02:33, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

And this opinion of yours is based on what? Ignoring studies reported in the mainstream journals, it seems. --Michael C. Price ^talk 02:50, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Show us one that's from a real journal and not completely disputed by better studies. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 03:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Done. --Michael C. Price ^talk 09:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Something that uses "orthomolecular" in the title would help. And something that's more than just a single study. From my understanding, showing that long-term folate use decreases X disease isn't orthomolecular. That's just vitamins. Orthomolecular is "I gave this person sixty times the RDI for ascorbic acid and magnesium and their cancer went away". Which isn't science, it's a case study. Which can't be used for much. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 11:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You are starting out with a crank definition of OM that does not follow from Pauling's definition. No wonder you conclude that it is a crackpot, fringe practice. The main effect of micronutrients is not in treating disease but in preventing them and improving health. --Michael C. Price ^talk 17:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, in that case I would suggest merging to vitamin deficiency

Undue weight is hard to judge, and you're never going to get everyone to agree, but orthomolecular medicine doesn't have any substantial mainstream acceptance. It's a fringe topic in my mind, and I don't think you can pick sources that support aspects of OMM, but don't mention OMM, and put them in the OMM page. That's a synthesis, an OR issue and something I have long thought problematic. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:17, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

unindent Back on topic: WP:MEDRS distinguishes between the "high quality popular press" (which is acceptable as a source) and the rest which make wild claims about "cures" etc (which are not acceptable sources, of course). In this instance the 3 sources I used are not making wild sensationalist claims, but simply reporting some data from the original study.

WP:MEDRS says: "As the quality of press coverage of medicine ranges from excellent to irresponsible, common sense, the verifiability policy, and the general reliable sources guideline should be considered in determining whether a popular press source is suitable for these purposes."

--Michael C. Price ^talk 00:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Hypoascorbemia

I observed a poor sentence in the article, "Some primates, including humans, do not produce vitamin C, and Stone claimed that this was due to a genetic defect which he called hypoascorbemia,[38] which is not in current scientific usage.". The clause at the end has a clumsy, tendentious tone which is not NPOV. I found some current usage in Cell and so the statement is also inaccurate. I removed this statement to improve the article but this change has been reverted with the edit summary "POV deletion". Tsk. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not used. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not even used in the Cell article. Nowhere. There is one reference to Stone's 1966 article, which has the word in its title. Usages of "hypoascorbemia" in the literature are old and they are in writings by Pauling, Hoffer, and Stone...and/or in pseudoscientific journals. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:12, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

No, the term is not used in that Cell article. Your Google search (I imagine that is what you did, since you can't have read this source if you claim it uses the term) is picking up a citation of Stone's paper. I've tried rewording that sentence in another way. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

My point is that undue weight is being given to the exact form of words. The deficiency continues to be well recognised and studied. Current researchers seem to use a phrase such as "Inability to synthesize vitamin C" as in this paper. Our article seems to be trying to suggest that this human deficiency is not recognised as a scientific fact and this is not the case. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:26, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

As I said, I've reworded that sentence. What are your thoughts on the new version? Tim Vickers (talk) 19:28, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

• The phrase "normal state" seems overly positive - as if susceptibility to scurvy were a good thing. The paper referenced above describes our inability to synthesize Vitamin C as a "genetic deficiency" and this seems a better description, which reflects current thought as well as Stone's. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Tim Vicker's changes work for me. Warden, whatever you're saying, it's original research. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:01, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Its the normal state if you're human. The problem is that people don't define "diseases" across species boundaries. It is like describing our inability to photosynthesise as "hypochlorophyllemia". Tim Vickers (talk) 21:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not true: the inability to synthensize vitamin C is a classic example of genetic deficiency that does cross species boundaries. Whether you call that a "disease" is questionable, but it is certainly a genetic defect even though it is a normal human condition. Dawkins (the Ancestor's Tale describe it as such, IIRC). If we looked liked plants but simply lacked chlorophyll then we would have "hypochlorophyllemia", but of course we don't look like plants so the analogy fails. However we do have the pathways that are dependent on ascorbic acid, so the term "hypoascorbemia" seems appropriate. --Michael C. Price ^talk 21:30, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm very surprised you're still trying to make that argument. To use a closer example then, since chimps and all our close primate relatives have thick hair all over their bodies, but we don't, would you be comfortable with defining humans as a species that suffers from hereditary alopecia? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

That would depend on the seriousness of the condition. Alopecia is countered by our use of fire, clothing and central heating, hypoascorbemia by pills. --Michael C. Price ^talk 22:52, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Wow. You do feel comfortable with that. OK then, I have nothing more to add. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:55, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see this paper. The characterisation of humans as apes who have lost their hair and are thus naked is commonplace. And a fortune awaits the person who discovers a truly effective cure for male pattern baldness. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

In any case, the sentences in dispute were rather inaccurate, ascribing to I. Stone the discovery of the terminal enzyme's absence in several species. Stone's scientific papers about this deficiency (or whatever you'd like to call it) were published in the late 1960s. The identification of LGO's absence in humans, other primates, some birds, etc., had been published extensively (by others, not Stone) in the 1950s. From then on, the investigators did not consider it a disease, simply a loss-of-function. They pointed to the non-essential nature of the pathway in organisms with access to aa-containing foods. They noted that some organisms with the intact pathway don't seem actually to use it or need it. Since neither hypochlorophyllemia nor hypoascorbemia is used by medical professionals, it's hardly reasonable to expect a review in NEJM to come out and knock them down specifically. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 21:43, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Does Stone mention orthomolecular medicine specifically in his work? Was it picked up and carried anywhere, or is 1973 the last mention of it? Lots of OMM practitioners seem to cite Stone, but if he himself did not ascribe to OMM, it's dubious to include him. What is the specific relevance and merit of including him on this page; a lot of OMM on wikipedia seems to be "check out this, it's tangentially related, OMM is vindicated". Worrisome and not what we're here for. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 23:14, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

About the latest decent article that supports any of this is from the early 1980's, when we didn't have sophisticated computers to analyze data, construction of clinical trials was a bit backwards, and new science in everything (from genetics to biochemistry to everything) has made a lot of those early studies obsolete. Also, and it's a problem everywhere, science moves on. There is no underlying theory of biology that supports these ideas, so no one is going to get grant money to disabuse the world of every crank idea. In other words, we don't spend time proving the negative. It doesn't get us anywhere, doesn't improve the human condition. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no underlying theory of biology that supports these ideas. subclinical deficiency, n in orthomolecular medicine, deficiency of a nutrient sufficient to affect health but not severe enough to cause classic deficiency symptoms. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

An online dictionary refutes the "no underlying theory of biology" statement? Really Mikey, I'll help you walk through MEDRS any time you need it. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 03:09, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

@WLU, Stone eventually picked up Pauling's use of the term orthomolecular and used it himself the 70s and 80s in his publications: letters to the editor and articles in journals like Medical Hypotheses. I suppose you could call him a convert to "orthomolecularism", and, unlike some of the other figures claimed by its proponents, he did actually use the word. It's interesting that Stone is referred to as "Dr." by orthomolecularists, starting with Pauling, and that he is given credit for "discovering" the lack of LGO in humans. In reality, he was neither a doctor nor the discoverer of this. He also believed that injected ascorbic acid would end all viral disease. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

What you mean by him not being a doctor? He had a PhD. II | (t - c) 00:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Did he? A reliable review on food faddism quotes Pauling and places a "sic" when Pauling refers to Stone as a "Dr". Do you know when Stone received his PhD and in what discipline? And do you have a reliable source for this information, or was it taken from an orthomolecular website, as a goodly amount of the information in this article has been? Whatever Stone's credentials, my point is that orthomolecularists, like other fringe science advocates, seem to inflate the accomplishments and credentials of those they see as leaders of their movement, but that our article needs to have verifiability. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Notable supporters

WLU's point above is good: are the "notable supporters" and others mentioned in the article actually proponents of orthomolecular, or are they simply people the orthomolecular groups like to think would have agreed with their ideas? For example, Albert S-G: does he endorse orthomolecularism anywhere in his writings, or is he claimed because he worked with vitamin C? If the latter, he shouldn't be on the list. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) That is, it's my opinion that being inducted into an interest group "hall of fame" posthumously and an assertion by Hoffer that S-G "agreed with" Pauling are insufficient to make him a verifiable supporter of orthomolecularism. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 15:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

S-G is a real scientist, and there isn't a single publication that indicates he supported orthomolecular junk science. Unless there is some self-proclamation, he or the others cannot be posthumously baptized into the religion of pseudoscience. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

So we can't describe Newton as a scientist because it wasn't a term current in 1727? --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:49, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I just looked into this. Albert Szent-Györgyi, like Linus Pauling, was indeed a real scientist. He was also almost certainly an explicit supporter of orthomolecular medicine, and he took an interest in cancer and vitamins in the 70s. Way back in the 30s he was talking about optimal nutrition [36]. If one was to read some of his books around that time like Electronic Biology and Cancer: A New Theory of Cancer (1976) or The living state (1972), you'd probably see him mention the term explicitly. The only sources we have [37] on that are self-published, however, and it's fair to keep him out until someone finds a reliably sourced note of his connection since it's a bit self-serving. Ralph Moss's biography [38] of him would suffice if it said there was a connection. Ralph Moss, incidentally, is today most known for being an altmed cancer guru, and yet the two were friends. Albert S-G was a openminded guy. II | (t - c) 00:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Nevertheless, there are NO reliable publications anywhere by S-G that he actually believed in this pseudoscience.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 03:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Not relevant. We can report the opinions of others that he was an OMM researcher. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

@Price: Websites of orthomolecular organisations are reliable sources only for the opinions of orthomolecularists about themselves and their theories, not their interpretations of who thought what and when about a theory that has no traction in mainstream medicine and didn't exist until the 1960s. "Orthomolecular medicine" is a term not used by medically reliable sources, so it's difficult to apply it to people who do not or did not specifically embrace it. In contrast, "scientist" is a commonly-used term and can probably be applied to Newton, just as "boat" can be applied to a trireme, even though it was built long before the English term appeared.

@II: Being a prominent supporter of a theory involves more than "probably" mentioning the term, being a friend of an alternative medicine proponent, or being, in the opinion of a Wikipedia editor, an "openminded guy". Not everyone who says a balanced diet is good, or who performed research with one of the molecules favoured by orthomolecularists, can be called an orthomolecularist. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 16:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Lay summary for WHI

Would anyone object to adding a |laysummary= to the WHI study (Neuhouser ML, Wassertheil-Smoller S, Thomson C, et al (February 2009). "Multivitamin use and risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease in the Women's Health Initiative cohorts". Arch. Intern. Med. 169 (3): 294–304. doi:10.1001/archinternmed.2008.540. PMID 19204221., currently ref. 25)? MedPageToday looks to me like the best balance between informative and accessible, assuming that the site is reliable (they say they are, but I am not familiar with them). Treatment by Neuhouser's home institution or NYT, are also options, though the latter is pretty short. - Eldereft (cont.) 23:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, MedPageToday looks the best. --Michael C. Price ^talk 07:52, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with any "lay" analysis of medical articles, since they are highly POV. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

The Canadian Cancer Society

The Canadian Cancer Society fits the description of an nationally or internationally reputable expert bodies as described in Wikipedia:MEDRS and its support of high doses of Vitamin D within the OM model deserves to be included in the article. Lumos3 (talk) 13:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course it does, but try getting that past the cabal that operates here .... --Michael C. Price ^talk 14:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Neither section nor reference mention OMM. If you have a ref from the CCS supporting OMM which meets WP:MEDRS then please bring it here, and we can work on reintegrating this section, suitably supported. Also, please take a look at WP:BRD. Thanks, Verbal chat 15:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no requirement for a source to talk about OMM. If an OMM source says OMM implies taking loads of vitamin D is beneficial then we can mention also studies about the effects of taking loads of vitamin D -- and leave it to the reader to form any conclusions (if any). --Michael C. Price ^talk 15:19, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Canadian Cancer Society is not a really a reliable source since it's far beyond a tertiary source, more like quartenary, but still, let's look at what they actually stated. First, no one argues that Vitamin D helps prevent certain types of cancer. Vitamin D is produced by the body, and those in northern latitudes (Canada being a northern Latitude country) require supplements of Vitamin D. The Canadian Cancer Society recommends 400IU of Vitamin D per day, hardly OMM levels. Moreover, they specifically state, "We don’t recommend taking any more than these amounts because too much vitamin D can be harmful." And Mikey, please be advised that ArbCom has stated that calling any group of NPOV editors a "cabal" is considered uncivil and a personal attack. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 16:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

As for the last claim, where exactly did they say that? However since you're not NPOV that doesn't apply, does it? To return to the science, please take note that the Scientific American article authors on vitamin D and cancer (Nov 2007, page 36-44) were taking 1000 IU/d and 4000 IU/d respectively, i.e. considerably over the RDA and into OMM range.--Michael C. Price ^talk 18:35, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Mikey, I'm completely NPOV. Another personal attack, I see. Scientific American is not a reliable source, it's popular press, more or less on the level of the Wall Street Journal. Please read WP:MEDRS so that you are more familiar with how to support your statements. If you would like me to help you out on more fully understanding NPOV and MEDRS, please do not hesitate to ask. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 18:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

As quick to exonerate yourself as you are to castigate others; I shall leave it to others to judge what this implies about your self-critical abilities. I suppose you would also say that you never indulge in PAs and are always civil? Anyway, MEDRS does NOT says SA is not a reliable source, but says judgement should be used (as it always does). They actually say "For example, popular science magazines such as New Scientist and Scientific American are not peer reviewed but sometimes feature articles that explain medical subjects in plain English. As the quality of press coverage of medicine ranges from excellent to irresponsible, common sense, the verifiability policy, and the general reliable sources guideline should be considered in determining whether a popular press source is suitable for these purposes." --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

SA may explain a concept in a useful way for a general audience; using it as a source for this general reason is quite different from relying on SA for research findings. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Michael, you mentioned a "cabal" in your first post to this section. If it's in SA then we should be able to back it up with other reliable medical sources, if that is the actual case. Scientific American is not a RS for new research. Keepcalm has this right above. You should concern yourself with finding those to bolster your case for inclusion. Please stay civil. To return to the topic of this section, there is still no reason to include the section I removed or the reference. Verbal chat 19:08, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

This isn't new research -- the evidence's been piling up for a few years. That's why it's reported in SA. --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No. It's because a real journal wouldn't publish it. Again, I'm willing to mentor you on MEDRS and NPOV. Just drop me a note. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 03:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Rubbish. The data has already been published elsewhere. That's the way SA operate -- their articles contain a list of journal references. Coming from someone who believes himself to be "completely NPOV", this is pathetic, but to be expected. --Michael C. Price ^talk 06:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

← There is currently a lot of interest in Vitamin D. Most people in northern latitudes probably don't get "enough". Some groups recommend supplements of 400 or even 800-1000 IU/d for people living up north (e.g. PMID 17634462 from NEJM). This an doesn't seem like "orthomolecular medicine" to me - for one thing, it's hardly a megadose as the RDA is 400 IU. Secondly, it involves treating actual vitamin deficiency, rather than shooting for an excessive vitamin intake. Taking 500 mg/d of Vitamin C to treat scurvy isn't "orthomolecular medicine", right? So nor would be correcting a vitamin D deficiency. OK, that's WP:OR, but still... without an independent source linking the current mania for Vitamin D to orthomolecular medicine, it's all WP:OR. MastCell ^Talk 06:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Treating a deficiency can be OMM if the deficiency is subclinical, as it is here, since the amount of vitamin D required to optimally prevent cancer is more than the amount required to prevent rickets. Remember the definition I gave above, of a subclinical deficiency, is one coined by OMM, as the dictionaries attested. --Michael C. Price ^talk 06:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a good deal of coining going on, such that "OMM" can claim about anything involving vitamins and nutrition. Again, using a substance, a nutrient or any synthetic drug, to prevent or treat is usually called chemoprevention or chemotherapy, not "orthomolecular medicine". Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 17:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

No, this is an example of a OMM central concept being taken over by mainstream medicine and then denying its roots. Look at those definitions I posted: subclinical deficiency, n in orthomolecular medicine, deficiency of a nutrient sufficient to affect health but not severe enough to cause classic deficiency symptoms. They acknowledge the OMM roots of subclinical deficiency. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much weight should be given to an online dictionary, but I am fairly certain the term "subclinical deficiency" was used before orthomolecularists claimed it. One example from 1964: J Clin Pathol. 1964 Nov;17(6):666-70. Authors Lindenbaum and Klipstein report on "Folic acid clearances and basal serum folate levels in patients with thyroid disease", using the term "subclinical deficiency". One could always claim Lindenbaum and Klipstein as pre-OMM orthomolecularists, I suppose, along with any other scientist who had researched any aspect of diet or nutrients. It's an interesting exercise for orthomolecular websites, but of limited use on Wikipedia. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:45, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

It was more than one online dictionary that claimed that "subclinical deficiency" was an OMM term. Even if OMM didn't originate the term, they certainly adopted and canvassed it. --Michael C. Price ^talk 00:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder: let's use the talk page to discuss specific changes to the article. Orthomolecular medicine is a minority viewpoint, and no amount of original research/debate on the talk page will change that. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 20:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

And to decide what goes in the article we have to know what the scope of OMM is. So much of the debate here is relevant. --Michael C. Price ^talk 00:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

That's just it. Where are the independent sources defining the scope of OMM? Yes, we know that orthomolecular websites appropriate any positive vitamin-related newsblurbs as vindication, and dismiss out of hand reams of evidence that vitamin megadoses are useless of harmful. But to write an actual neutral encyclopedic article, we need to look to independent sources. MastCell ^Talk 06:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought you retired. Hmmm. Anyways, why aren't Megavitamin therapy and OMM merged into one article. Basically, the same reliable sources that refute one refute the other. I get exhausted clicking my mouse from one to the other. Oh yeah, online dictionaries fail MEDRS quite badly. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 06:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

To MastCell: I agree we need to look at independent sources to write a useful neutral encyclopedic article. Precisely because some OMM sources will dismiss contrary evidence out of hand (just as mainstream sites will usually dismiss pro-OMM evidence out of hand, like some editors here). --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I personally don't dismiss anything. I reject unreliable references from fringe theory groups. It boils down to science vs. anti-science. Once again, I am most willing to mentor you to understand WP:MEDRS, a policy which might help you write better medical articles. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 15:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Since you serially reject studies, stating falsehoods about them, either you didn't read the studies or you read them and decided to make false claims; I call that dismissal when I'm polite.--Michael C. Price ^talk 16:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Please do not make personal attacks. It's not appreciated. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 17:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Then stop making erroneous personal claims. --Michael C. Price ^talk 17:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Scope of the page

We could go two ways. We could restrict this page to treatments which are promoted by people who identify themselves as orthomolecular and treatments which are called/identified orthomolecular by reliable sources. Then we would not consider megavitamin therapy to be the same as orthomolecular medicine. This is the most reasonable, since Pauling used the term to denote the right molecule in the right amounts, and the people involved were quite aware that adverse effects can occur with high doses of vitamins -- these adverse effects are just not that common. OMM practitioners targeted a few vitamins in particular for use, mainly niacin and vitamin E. Alternatively, some people seem to think we should merge megavitamin therapy into here and cover all megavitamin therapies indiscriminately. That doesn't make much sense. If some doctors are proposing megadoses of vitamin D, certainly it could be covered in megavitamin therapy -- assuming that the doses are called megadoses, which they probably aren't, since megadosing is a dirty word in medicine, and a dose is really only defined relative to theoretical RDA. Vitamin D proponents are largely advocating for a higher RDA.

Orthomolecular medicine is actually a theory of optimal nutrition. I suppose many people have their own idea of what optimal nutrition is, but OMM proponents have particular theories about it, which can be represented here. Other theories belong elsewhere, like the nutrition page. II | (t - c) 01:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

If we are serious about only using WP:RS that directly reference OMM then we'll have to remove studies that rubbish supplements without mentioning OMM directly. Is that what people want? --Michael C. Price ^talk 01:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

By the way, Bruce Ames used to be represented fairly heavily in this article due to his promotion of vitamins. Here is an article where he discusses megavitamins for genetic defects. This stuff is not really new, although he makes it sound like it is; Menolascino discusses the same thing as a mainstream discovery. This is the sort of thing that easily fits under megavitamin therapy, and is actually in some cases mainstream. This type of megavitamin therapy has a relationship to orthomolecular medicine, although it's a bit more distant. II | (t - c) 01:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

OMM and megavitamin therapy are commonly used as synonyms (in part because the most visible orthomolecularists are the people selling megadose supplements in infomercials, etc.). The views of orthomolecularists about themselves are also important and should be recognised; that's why the lead prominently features the orthomolecularists' views on diet.

As for "we'll have to remove studies that rubbish supplements without mentioning OMM directly", that's simply not in accordance with WP:WEIGHT. A minority viewpoint should be balanced with verifiable mainstream information from reliable sources. Since OMM is not just a minority viewpoint, but also a minority term used to describe aspects of a (another? a related?) minority viewpoint, one can't well expect authors of reliable sources to use the term. That is, in my interpretation anyway, sources satisfying RS for medical science can balance fringe viewpoints without directly referring to the fringe viewpoint by name, although advocates of fringe viewpoints can't claim reliable sources or notable figures as supporting their fringe viewpoint without a direct link. Is it "fair"? Perhaps not. But it is Wikipedia policy, and a good way to ensure the encyclopaedia doesn't become a forum for unreliably sourced content. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 02:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Recent possibly problematical edits

In a recent edit, Orangemarlin removed a "crap reference" [39]. We're not going to be able to make a decent article without citing orthomolecular medicine people, including their website statements -- which are about as reliable as their journal articles. The policy on WP:SELFPUB is that it's OK when it's not contentious/self-serving and expresses their views.

In another edit, Orangemarlin added a "100X" better reference for the statement that Altschul and Hoffer first discovered the niacin-cholesterol relationship [40]. Problem is, a third-party is required to back up the statement that these men "discovered" the relationship. Based on their original paper alone, someone else could have discovered it. We can cite both, but the third-party 2005 book is necessary to support the statement that they discovered it. Also, I think going into depth about other treatments for cardiovascular disease is unnecessary -- previously it said "a standard medical treatment" -- that doesn't imply that it's the only treatment. II | (t - c) 02:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the Sneader book, but if it confirms the discovery and it's reliable, I wouldn't object to its return. At the same time, we can't be using self-published websites to support claims about third parties. Abram Hoffer's claims about himself, when explicitly identified as such--sure--but not an anonymous website author's claims about Hoffer, or, worse, about scientists who have never endorsed OMM. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 02:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. The crap reference was not about Hoffer -- it was about Kauffman, who is in the OMM "Hall of Fame". He apparently was a dyed-in-the-wool OMM researcher. The reference said something non-contentious: he worked with niacinamide. This article ought to mention the major figures in the history section. All of the OMM "Hall of Fame" figures other than Max Gerson were full members of the OMM community. II | (t - c) 18:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Please remember that WP:NPA applies to the titles of sections. I agree with KeepCACO about this, and I don't see a real problem with OMs OMM edits. Verbal chat 17:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to attack him by putting his name in the section title. I was trying to indicate what the thread was about. And right below here you've got him calling me a "CAM potion pusher", yet I don't see you removing that. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. II | (t - c) 18:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not surprised either. The hypocrisy and lack of objectivity here is amazing. --Michael C. Price ^talk 18:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought putting it in a section title, which makes it large, needed refactoring. I would remind all people to observe WP:NPOV. Also, changing section titles isn't a big deal, but changing other peoples comments isn't something that should be done lightly. If you have a problem please take it to WP:WQA or other WP:DR, thanks. Verbal chat 18:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Imperfect, I love removing crap references. And Niacin is not a standard medical treatment for CVD. You would die of CVD if you only took Niacin for CVD, but I know you CAM potion pushers love to think so. Take one small article but ignore the 10 million others that describe the long list of treatments for all the various types of CVD. Eat your veggies, and you probably wouldn't have to worry about CVD, with or without niacin. Sheesh. Ridiculous. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 05:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I took the "standard medical treatment" language directly from the ACS article [41]. Your statin thing is an unnecessary tangent which doesn't fit in the article, and is also unreferenced. II | (t - c) 18:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note that this thread is mentioned in an AN/I raised by Orangemarlin. --Michael C. Price ^talk 10:06, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Merge from Orthomolecular psychiatry

It has been proposed to merge Orthomolecular psychiatry with this article; there has been some editwarring over converting the other article into a redirect. I'm planning to refer the question to a broader community discussion and am looking into what would be an appropriate forum. Editors might want to wait before putting a lot of work into merging the two articles in case the eventual decision is to retain two separate articles. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:45, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The merge has already taken place. Better venues than AfD, as proposed, would be WP:FTN or an WP:RFC if consensus on the other article changes. Comment should probably continue on the other talk page as it has already been discussed there. Verbal chat 13:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)this discussion.

Looks like it was therefore a totally bogus re-direct which under the rules of Wikipedia should be immediately undone. -- John Gohde (talk) 14:28, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

This is blatant obstructionism and lying. I suggest bringing User:John Gohde and User:Colonel Warden to WP:AE for disciplinary action under the Pseudoscience Arbcom case. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Follow up:

Problematic behavior has been referred to arbitration enforcement. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Pointing out the lack of proper notice and discussion on this particular talk page is perfectly factual as well as appropriate. I, myself, was about to vote to have the article merged, but was offended by the gross lack of proper notice. I went out of my way to look for and saw no discussion taking place. None was referenced in the above notice, either. -- John Gohde (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Article length may dictate that this article - Orthomolecular medicine - be divided. The current article is over 80k! -- Levine2112 ^discuss 18:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have been under the impression that article size is not necessarily a problem since Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Also, I didn't know of any rules prohibiting a merge, particularly after discussion. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 18:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose merge. Artw (talk) 18:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a real rationale. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

It's a sufficiently distinct subject that a seperate article is desirable. Also if the rationale for deletion is "POV fork" then, frankly, that's ludicrous. Also a general objection to allowing editors to railroad through changes through wikilawyering and canvasing, for whatever that's worth. Artw (talk) 19:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You should consider not repeating yourself from page to page. It doesn't strengthen your argument. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Sadly a clear venue for discussion was not clear at the time - it looks like we have settled on this one. Possibly the other page should be restored and propper tagging indicating the merge discussion should be added so interested parties might know the best place to express their views? Artw (talk) 19:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I've raised this at ANI under the thread Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Edit-warring_on_merge_of_orthomolecular_psychiatry_into_orthomolecular_medicine. Since I know that the editors I mentioned in that thread watch this page closely, I'm hoping it's OK if I don't do individual notifications. II | (t - c) 19:14, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I have requested that User:ImperfectlyInformed be community banned from Wikipedia for not contributing anything of value to the encyclopedia in that thread. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

II is annoying, has called me a "liar", and isn't very nice at times, but at other times, I enjoy his banter and dedication. I probably wouldn't support his being banned. He probably should stay away from CAM articles.. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:43, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

• Support the merge. Edison (talk) 19:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose this merge. The subject is distinct. And in any case it is not a POV form--the POV in the 2 articles is the same (a rather hostile NPOV approach to the subject, which I think lacks significant balance. It is not mainstream, but also not quackery.). The present state of the merge shows the reason for keeping it separate: one intrusive paragraph, and the loss of most of the material. Such a merge can unfortunately result not in organising material, but destroying it, as there are people who have the apparent view that the fewer articles on such things the better. DGG (talk) 19:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The present state of the merge is indeed less than ideal, so let's improve it. I suggest that constructive work on the article is rather preffered to personal attacks. Material, i.e. reliably sourced material, has not been destroyed; rather, material repeated multiple times has been condensed.

On the size of the article, WP:SIZE gives a rough guideline: "30 to 50 KB, which roughly corresponds to 6,000 to 10,000 words of readable prose", or "10 pages" of printed text. By "readable prose", the guideline means that only the main body is measured for size. Currently, there are about 3600 words of readable prose in this article. I would conclude that the article is not too long, even by the standards of the guideline, itself subject to judgement. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 19:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose the merge. This is a tough one. On the one hand, the article it stands is a mess, and badly needs cleanup, proper sectioning and weighting per WP:FRINGE, and we absolutely shouldn't be forking off articles for each condition that a fringe field has a theory on or purports to treat. On the other hand, it seems like more than a few fringy quacks cooking up ideas in their basements, and it seems to have a notable history independent of orthomolecular "medicine" generally, and a notable body of theory about the psychiatric causes of illness offering an alternative to mainstream formulations. It seems a genuine real world fork of orthomolecular "medicine". I'd be open to being shown otherwise. Phil153 (talk) 20:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose the merge per Phil153. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Support the two things appear to be the same and one thing. Pauling gave it the name "orthomolecular"[42][43] and also coined the name "orthomolecular medicine"[44][45] but the bases of the theory had already been created. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Supported (again) per Enric and Phil's first hand - his second hand has a problem. Verbal chat 22:13, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Support Looks like consensus to me. We're done here. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 22:40, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose merge.--Alterrabe (talk) 23:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Support per reasons I've given above and at the psychiatry talk page. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 23:40, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. Doesn't fit the definition of a POV fork; no valid reason to merge. Notable subtopic. Plenty of sources available, including skeptical sources; sources published in mainstream science publications, and sources by Nobel prizewinner Linus Pauling who has published on this topic in mainstream science journals. See WP:Content forking#Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles. I still plan to refer this question for broader community input after receiving a reply from User talk:EdJohnston#Broader discussion of merge about what would be an appropriate forum. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:40, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Everything seems to have gone strangely quiet over how exactly that article represents a POV fork. If anyone is still using that as their justification then they should really expand on that. If no one is using it as a justification then IMHO the current blanking of that page is bogus and should be undone until the merge discussion is complete. Artw (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Good point!
      Levine2112 pointed out that the merged page is over 80,000 bytes. Wikipedia:Article size#A rule of thumb says over 60 KB "Probably should be divided".
      Comments on the page protection request: Verbal said there, "after discussion and agreement"; in fact, in that discussion, three editors, myself, Colonel Warden and Levine2112, had expressed opposition to the merge, and discussion was in progress, for example about the definition of POV fork. There also, ScienceApologist said, "As someone who has not been editing the page at all, I second this request." In fact, ScienceApologist had made a number of edits to the page in November, including converting the article into a redirect, (which was reverted within hours)^{(14:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC))}. 01:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
      As Colonel Warden said, "Linus Pauling's seminal paper upon Orthomolecular Psychiatry was the first usage of the term Orthmolecular and so this was the founding branch of the more general field." Illustrative of this is the fact that the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine was earlier titled "Orthomolecular Psychiatry". ☺Coppertwig (talk) 02:12, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
      • It's now edited down to 72 KB. --Enric Naval (talk) 04:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose merge. Distinct enough to be separate articles.--Michael C. Price ^talk 01:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose I could support for this if summary style was adhered to strictly, but I'm too disappointed in the way the group pushing this merge has acted to support right now. II | (t - c) 01:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose The topic will sprawl too widely if contained in one article. I generally favour small articles since they seem to suit this medium well, especially on hand-held devices, and such articles may be readily linked together so that related topics are easily navigated. Colonel Warden (talk) 02:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose the merge, with some reservations. Orthomolecular medicine is a big topic. And, big topics should reasonably be expected to be broken up into several smaller child topics. Dr. Abrahm Hoffer as far as I am concern is best known for his anti-aging Orthomolecular research that used niacin. Wrote on misdiagnosed senility but hardly had anything to do with serious psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia. Ergo, the Orthomolecular psychiatry article needs a major clean up. -- John Gohde (talk) 03:00, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  On the contrary, Hoffer is cited as a pioneer of orthomolecular psychiatry, for example here; I believe he is frequently cited within orthomolecular psychiatry^{(00:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC))} for using megadoses of niacin to treat schizophrenia. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 14:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  Sorry, I worded that badly. The article may require cleanup and Hoffer may be in general better known for other things, but within the topic of orthomolecular psychiatry he was one of the major early experimenters, perhaps the most cited. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Checked PubMed and found references to 204 articles authored by Hoffer, including one published in 2008 on that very topic of using Niacin to treat schizophrenia. -- John Gohde (talk) 23:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per Coppertwig. Brothejr (talk) 11:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose on the grounds that the two articles are clearly distinct enough to be separate articles and that merging them would inevitably result in an overly lengthy article.Vitaminman (talk) 21:16, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Once again, the combined article is well under the size limit suggested by WP:SIZE. The "readable prose" is less than half as long as it could be before bumping against WP:SIZE. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure articles can be much longer if well structured. This one is not - it's over long, rambling and needs to be split up. Artw (talk) 04:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Archive 8

Archive 9

Archive 10