Talk:Order of battle for the Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 1

Archive 1

All Ukrainian Units Engaged

If we presume the entire Ukrainian establishment is engaged, we ought to (somehow) link to pages like Mechanized Infantry (Ukraine) and Armoured Forces (Ukraine). As is, the lists are chopped up by branch. --PaulinSaudi (talk) 23:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Difficult to read (visually)

I propose {{Tree list}} and {{Tree list/end}} to help readers see relationships more clearly here. --N8 23:29, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Went ahead and implemented this on Ukrainian section for interested editors to see and comment if they choose. IMO it really makes the whole hierarchy easier to follow. --N8 21:37, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Equipements ?

Where to find the equipements involved ? Yug (talk) 🐲 11:53, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Kadyrovites

Can someone add how they fit into the Russian whole and who their commanders are? Bommbass (talk) 11:56, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

437th Training Regiment

The Ukrainians are reporting destruction of the Russian 437th Training Regiment. What exactly is this, and where does it fit in the OB? (It is like the German feldausbildungsregimenten of WW2 or is it more like a Lehr unit? 71.220.162.188 (talk) 17:29, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Territorial Defense Brigades

How many of these brigades should be listed on this page? There are 24 in total, and all were activated at the start of the invasion. Will all be listed in the Ukranian order of battle? That may clog up the list too much. If not, what is the criteria for including a specific brigade? Also, it seems a bit superfluous to also include the individual battalions in some brigades like the way the 112th is listed right now. MassAffected (talk) 19:54, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion

I see some names are in bold, & some are followed by a dagger (†). It would help comprehension of the material in this list if an explanation for these conventions were provided at the top of the list. -- llywrch (talk) 16:34, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

It's not a dagger, it's a cross. i don't tink this sign needs explaination. it's a known sign that the person is dead Norschweden (talk) 15:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Still worth explaining that for those not in the know. Also, there are daggers on names of people who are not confirmed deceased eg Igor Osipov. I would add the explanation note but if there are daggers on people who aren't dead then I'm not certain that's what it means. 2600:1700:5520:7F60:C8B2:187C:2669:D5EB (talk) 15:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Putin's purges

Putin has dismissed several commanders since the start of the war. Two of them are mentioned in this article - Yershov (6th army) and Gavrilov (National Guard) - are there more? Bommbass (talk) 09:05, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Copy & Paste

Shouldn't these people at least mention that they simply copied from wikipedia? --134.76.2.30 (talk) 20:24, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Noman Çelebicihan Battalion

Any idea on if they are participating aside from this post [1]? 146.111.30.159 (talk) 18:42, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

can someone do some source fixes?

a list of a few things that need to be done:

-remove divisions with unreliable sources (i have seen a couple of them here)

-fix bare urls (seen lots of these here)

-make more ref name stuff

-remove divisions with no sources (seen a couple here)

-remove divisions that sources don't mention them at all (i have also seen a couple of these here)

im trying to put sources where i can, but, im human so i may make errors, so im asking for someone to sweep through the page and fix these things for me.

187.39.133.201 (talk) 20:27, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Some material that is removed does have a reliable reference, eg 331st Guards Parachute Regiment [2], namely this bbc news article [3]. Does link through from the 98th Guards Airborne Division on this page. Would it give too detailed a subdivision? Biker333 (talk) 17:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

there are still a LOT of bare urls in the page, and, as i cant convert them, i ask for someone to do that for me, in addition, check some of the sources to see if they are reliable or if they actually mention the division in question, also, more ref name stuff is probably still needed in the page. 187.39.133.201 (talk) 01:32, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Equipements and anounts

There is a respectable list at the bottom of this Guardian article Yug (talk) 🐲 14:10, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Has too much been removed?

Recently insufficiently sourced material was removed, I wonder if too much was removed, eg 331st Guards Parachute Regiment (see my comments above). Now the possible death of Col. Alexandr Bespalov of the Russian 59th tank regiment is in the news, he used to be on here. Biker333 (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes I noticed the same thing, apparently now the order of battle doesn't go as deep as regiments but stops at brigades/divisions. To which I agree because for some brigades regiments structure are not so clear. A possibile solution might be highlighting only the regiments whose commander is KIA. Unfrigginbelievable (talk) 09:36, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. The list was pretty useful until around end of March, then a lot of nonsense occured. We know that all Russian armies have all their major formations involved, but the current list does not present an accurate picture, not nearly. Some sources were arbitrarily removed, then the respective units were deleted because "unsourced" etc. That's a shame. --134.76.2.35 (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

i removed some stuff because apparently some IPs and a sockpuppet put a ton of unsourced material in the page, then put sources that didn't mention this material at all to try and bypass the removal of the content, it was hard, but i went from source to source looking if it did mention the division/brigade/regiment/battalion in question, i may have removed some that were mentioned or didn't remove some that weren't, but i tried my best, if you do want to add something in, please add a RS that mentions the division, don't just add it without any source, although i do agree that the list isnt nearly as useful as it was before the unsourced stuff was added by the sockpuppet and the IPs, im going to research and add in some of the divisions that reliable sources mention, although i may need some help. 187.39.133.201 (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, but I am not doing the same work again. Especially not if there is no consensus that regiments should be included in the list. Of course there is some uncertainty due to the nature of events and the usual rules for sources should be a bit more flexible/respect AGF. I have my private list which I update, while the mess here is useless and close to disinformation. --134.76.2.40 (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Is there an understanding now that regiments are in fact mentioned? --134.76.2.18 (talk) 07:49, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

should regiments and battalions be included in the list?

recently, there has been kind of a conflict between several users about adding/removing regiments and battalions, so im bringing it to the talk page to gather enough consensus to add or remove them, what are your thoughts? 187.39.133.201 (talk) 02:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I am keen to add them back when there are references to show them operating in Ukraine, and what their chain of command is.

Operational groups of MDs

Dear B.Velikov can you find sources to say that the forces in the Central and Eastern MDs have been operationally transferred to the Western or Southern MDs? I have seen references to the fact that the Central and Eastern MDs have deployed their forces in a single geographical area, and retained control over them - possibly forming maybe what was termed in Soviet times an "operational group" [command and control group] of the MD HQ in order to do so. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:41, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

The Executive Order, which I have quoted, Articles 6, 8 and 10 more specifically, but honestly I don't need to search for quotes about this. Each military district has an assigned territory. The Eastern MD cannot operate in Ukraine, when it does not have a common border with her.

Article 6: В состав военного округа входят объединенное стратегическое командование военного округа, объединения, соединения, воинские части, организации Вооруженных Сил и военные комиссариаты, дислоцированные на его территории, в соответствии с перечнями, утвержденными Министром обороны Российской Федерации... - "In the composition of the military district come the Joint Strategic Command of the Military District, the grand formations [armies, air armies, fleets], the formations [corps, divisions, brigades, air divisions, flotillas, naval bases, naval brigades], military units, other organisations of the armed forces and military commissariates, BASED ON ITS TERRITORY, ACCORDING TO THE ORDERS, ISSUED BY THE MINISTER OF DEFENCE OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION..." A military formation or unit cannot be transfered from MD A to MD B and remain operationally subordinated to MD A.

Article 8: Органы военного управления, объединения, соединения, воинские части, организации Вооруженных Сил и военные комиссариаты, дислоцированные на территории военного округа или выполняющие задачи в границах ответственности военного округа, могут подчиняться командующему войсками военного округа непосредственно, оперативно или по специальным вопросам (далее - форма подчиненности). Соединения и воинские части войск национальной гвардии Российской Федерации, спасательные воинские формирования Министерства Российской Федерации по делам гражданской обороны, чрезвычайным ситуациям и ликвидации последствий стихийных бедствий, органы федеральной службы безопасности, органы государственной охраны и создаваемые на военное время специальные формирования... - "Military organs of command and control, grand formations, formations, military units, organisations of the armed forces and military commissariates, based within the territory of the military district, OR EXECUTING TASKS WITHIN THE AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MILITARY DISTRICT CAN BE SUBORDINATED TO THE MILITARY DISTRICT [in three ways] - directly, operationally or on special matters (see further - form of subordination)..." Then the articles goes on to say that National Guard, emergency services, law enforcement etc., which are involved in defence or natural disaster relief efforts are also subordihated to the military district. The subordination is also stipulated in the Federal Law "On Defence" 61-F3/31.05.1996 ("Об обороне"). Direct subordination is for the district's own units, operational subordination is about formations or military units from other military districts, which are tranferred to it, special is about formations or military units of separate arms or services, which operate independently (the strategic missile forces, Spetsnaz and Osnaz if the GRU, military police, which could be subirdinated to the MD on limited amount of matters, such as disciplinary or supply).

Article 10: Объединения, соединения и воинские части, входящие в состав военного округа, могут быть переданы в оперативное подчинение командующих войсками других военных округов, командующих округов других войск, командиров (начальников) соответствующих органов. - "Grand formations, formations and military units constituent to one military district can be transferred in operational subordination to the commander of another military district, to commanders of districts of other forces [border guards or national guard are the other forces, which have their own districts], commanders or directors of other such organs."B.Velikov (talk) 05:44, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I understand your quotes, I am not arguing with them. What I have seen however (Konrad Muzyka's work?) is that it has been reported that the MDs have deployed C2 nodes into different districts to supervise the armies that they have brought West. Until the appointment of Com Southern MD to command the whole force, the assumed chain would have been individual armies - C2 node from MD - National Military Command Centre (for example, Central MD supervising its habitually "own" armies while sitting within the territory of the Western MD). So what that means if true is that they initially completely ripped up their C2 doctrine, because I agree with you that it really doesn't make sense. The only clarifying factor in this is that a lot of the Russian military preparations for the war don't make sense!! Buckshot06 (talk) 10:05, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I am not arguing about the Central and Eastern MDs and the Northern Fleet deploying communications assets to the Western and Southern MD AORs. I highly doubt, that they have retained operational control over them after the fact. If you have notable sources claiming that, this would put a definite end to the discussion. I don't follow western sources. I follow Ukrainian sources, official Russian sources (which, to be honest, is less than pointless) and Russian opposition sources. I am trying to keep up with official Russian government positions in a hopeless attempt to keep a balance, but they do not give anything other than propaganda. Other than that I inform myself from Mark Solonin, Oleh Zhdanov and Yuri Butusov, I also follow the messages of Aleksey Arestovich, but he is an official advisor to the Office of the President of Ukraine and a retired military intelligence officer, so he is biased, wheather on purpose or unintentionally. I actually also follow three other commentators in the following order - Yuri Fyodorov, Gennady Gudkov, Yuri Shvets, but I do not pay as much attention to them. So, who is who:

• Mark Solonin is an aircraft engineer and historian. I have some of his books. He is a proponent of the revisionist view that Stalin was preparing a major invasion of Europe and Hitler has just beaten him to it with Operation Barbarossa. In that sense he is the second most prominent individual after Viktor Suvorov and has a beef with Aleksey Isayev, who supports the official Russian thesis. Troubles started for him years ago, when he was doing research in the Air Force archives and found operational plans for the deployment of air force assets close to and over the western border of the USSR, which support his thesis. After that the documents were scrubbed from the archives and problems for him started piling up, so two or three years ago he decided to leave Russia for good. He is Jewish and he moved to the northern outskirts of Kiyv, so there goes the trope about the Ukrainian neo-nazis. He has his own Youtube channel and knows personally officers from the Ukrainian forces (mostly national guard and police), who he has interviewed on the channel. He communicates with them on a daily bases and posts simple maps with Google Maps in his videos, explaining the current operational situation. Btw, as I said, he is an aircraft engineer and in 2021 he has made a series of videos explaining how the crash of the Polish government Tu-154 aircraft could not have been an accident and recently the Polish government has started a new investigation on the matter.
• Oleh Zhdanov is a retired Colonel of the UAF. He has spent his years as a junior officer in the Soviet and after that the Ukrainian Missile Troops and Artillery and his years as a senior officer at the Operations Department of the Ukrainian General Staff.
• Yuriy Butusov is a journalist, specialised in military affairs. He is making reports from the front line, his YT channel is called Butusov Plus (Бутусов Плюс). Here is his report from Malaya Rohan' east of Kharkiv hours after the defeat of the 59th Regiment and the 138th Separate Brigade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en-ga97tk0A
• I have already explained who Aleksey Arestovich is. He used to be very balanced and objective in his comments, but recently with the negotiations with Russia ongoing, he became much more political (as part of President Zelenskiy's administration), arguing how great the proposals towards Ukraine are and what a great accomplishment for Ukraine that is.
• Yuriy Fedorov is a Russian military and political expert, who explains the current situation well, but lacks depth in his analysis.
• Gennady Gudkov is a Russian opposition politician in exile. Both he and his son used to be members of parliament, with Gennady himself toping his parliamentarian career as the Vice Chairman of the National Security Commitee at the parliament. He is a retired KGB/FSB officer (Second Main Directorate I think, counter-intelligence or internal security), so I am always suspicious about his comments.
• Yuri Shvets is another retired KGB officer, of the First Main Directorate. He lives in the US and has his own Youtube channel. Of everyone listed I pay the least attention to him. I watch his videos from time to time only informatively. He is biased in his views by US Democratic Party positions and Democrat-related media.

I pay attention to the last two for the political side of things and to those I listed before for the military side of the conflict.B.Velikov (talk) 11:57, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME and Russian Naval Infantry versus Marines

Dear B.Velikov, I was just reviewing Talk:Soviet Airborne Forces and seeing that we had discussed this matter some years ago. You do amazing work and you've done some incredible additions to this website, but you often make non-standard translations which appears to show that you have not had the opportunity to review standard authoritative English sources on some Soviet / Russian forces. COMMONNAME says "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)." I'm looking at three randomly picked references of mine spanning 1982 - 2017: William J. Lewis (1982). The Warsaw Pact: Arms, Doctrine, and Strategy. Cambridge, Mass.: Institute for Foreign Policy Analysis/McGraw Hill., which deals with the " "Morskaia Pekhota," meaning "naval infantry" " from p57 ; Austin & Muraviev, "Armed Forces of Russia in Asia," 2000, who write about how "Russian power projection capability in the Pacific is centered in the naval infantry" (p223), and the latest hardcopy of the IISS Military Balance I have to hand, 2017, which lists Naval Infantry forces (2 naval inf bde, 1 arty bde, 1 SAM regt) on page 221. None use the term "Marines." I have been looking at DOD descriptions of the Soviet & Russian Armed Forces for 30 plus years: the term used is Naval Infantry, and for that reason and its widespread use, that is the WP:COMMONNAME and name of our article. In the same way, the standard translation I see for VMF in such publications is "Military-Naval Fleet" when they are translating literally. "Morskaia" is translated as Naval, not Marine. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:37, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

55th Independent Helicopter Regiment

Dear Gavbadger you created a redirect for the 55th Ind Helicopter Regiment on 22 May 2016, but it only pointed to Korenovsk, no doubt what was reported as the regiment's base at the time. There is much more data on the regiment available at 4th Air and Air Defence Forces Army. The regiment is now fighting in Ukraine, and our eagle eyes here have added it to the order of battle. I have just linked the redirect. It would be much better if there was actually an article attached to the redirect, which could be set up, even as a simple one line stub, with the information available at https://www.ww2.dk/new/air%20force/regiment/ovp/55ovp.htm.

A similar page at https://www.ww2.dk/new/air%20force/regiment/ovp/487ovp.htm is also available if you could create a starter article for 487th Independent Helicopter Regiment, which you set up in the same manner on 2 May 2016. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

remove battalions and regiments

what id suggest is removing them on this page, and, instead, creating an "order of battle" section for every offensive article (like in the eastern Ukraine offensive article) to mention them, that way, this page becomes easier to navigate through, and the battalions and regiments will still be somewhere, we could also put these articles in the see also section as well. 187.39.133.201 (talk) 00:47, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

N Not done and not likely to be done We have such lists for other conflicts/wars too. Keeping same layout throughout campaignes is best for both parties, readers and editors. A09090091 (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

How would it be better to keep all regiments and battalions here? each division has a TON of regiments and battalions, if we are going to include all of them, the list would be enormous, i will begin the process of moving some regiments and battalions. 187.39.133.201 (talk) 21:13, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Forces remain divided into groupings of forces tied to native MD.

https://twitter.com/KofmanMichael/status/1541105639937769474 B.Velikov Buckshot06 (talk) 22:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

• Tweets by far away analysts proove exactly nothing.B.Velikov (talk) 05:32, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your instant response Mr Velikov. The thing is that both Konrad Muzyka in Poland and Kofman in DC talk about these operational groups of MDs. They show up on all the maps. The British MOD maps show them!! I well understand they're non-doctrinal, but Putin does not appear to be running this campaign in a doctrinal fashion. Welcome your further thoughts. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:41, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Anyone know where to add these units ?

• 17th Army Aviation Brigade (https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1546533101001744387)
• 18th Army Aviation Brigade (https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/03/10/7330141/) - is this an upgraded and expanded 18th Guards Assault Aviation Regiment
• 46th Independent Operational Brigade (https://twitter.com/KilledInUkraine/status/1546194096296968192) --Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• The first two are Army Aviation units equipped with helicopters. The 18th Guards Assault Aviation Regiment is a ground attack unit that is completely different, while the 46th Independent Special Purpose Brigade is a Chechen Rosgvardiya unit. Kges1901 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

• There's a tangle here. The 17th Brigade of Army Aviation, now seemingly the 17th Guards Brigade of Army Aviation ((ru:17-я бригада армейской авиации), is from the Central Military District and is (almost certainly) under the grouping of forces from that District, possibly the Central Group of Forces, though I have not seen any public references to that term (unlike the Southern Group of Forces).
• The Ukrainians got the designation of the second unit incorrect. It's not the 18th Brigade of Army Aviation, which is associated with land forces and flies helicopters. It is indeed the 18th Guards Assault Aviation Regiment which flies Sukhoi Su-25 tank killer jet attack airplanes. Should be listed under Russian forces deployed to Ukraine with other Eastern Military District air force units.
• Kges1901 is completely correct on the 46th Brigade, not a MOD formation but seemingly Rosgvardiya (former Internal Troops). Should be under Russian National Guard. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:44, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Mikhail Zusko

Hello Everyone,

I would like to ask for a page called Mikhail Zusko or Mikhail Stepanovich Zusko. The name appears in multiple pages including pages relatvant to the War in Ukraine. Do you have any questions?

Please let me know Personisgaming (talk) 16:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Ânes-pur-sàng

You're doing some really great work here. Yes, the groupings are based on the military districts. You would probably be best to arrange all Ground Forces, Naval Infantry units by MD, and air forces centrally (broken down by Army VVS i PVO). Army aviation maybe in with the military districts. Maybe take a look at https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates, first paragraph in the July 18 report. Ignore the guess about the lower rank of General-Lieutenant Muradov; it's just that he is in charge of the EMD grouping right now. Many thanks again for your hard work!! Buckshot06 (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Unreliable sources and excessive amount of regiments and battalions

there are a lot of sources here that i have found quite unreliable when we are talking about the current war (especially twitter, topcargo, washington examiner, etc).

another thing i noticed is the massive amount of divisions in the article, so, what id suggest is removing formations with sizes below brigade, or else wed need to include every single regiment, company and battalion here, which would make the article enormous and difficult to navigate through, any thoughts?

ZoopyCat (talk) 23:25, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Another idea, instead of removing all regiments and battalions, we could still include them, but only those with reliable sources, as ive seen many including some potentially unreliable sources. ZoopyCat (talk) 16:18, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

No. This is the "Order of Battle for the 2022 Rus Invasion of Ukraine." That implies a *full*, complete, order of battle. National armed forces are big and complex!! Just because it is small does not mean it is not fighting!! You are at perfect liberty to create and maintain another Summary order of battle for the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine should you wish, however, copy over whatever you wish, and write an introduction to that article which explains what you have left out.

While we're discussing these things, can you explain why Ukazs of the President of Ukraine have been removed as sources? Surely they are reliable for the existence of a formation or unit? Buckshot06 (talk) 05:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I ask the same, as those are units given presidential citations of the battle honors, so I think those units have been in battles. I have not seen any mentions in Ukaz about the international troops, but those seems to be added greatly to the article. --Ekeb (talk) 05:46, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

This is exactly my thought. Official sources are reliable for (1) existence of an organisation; (2) honours granted by an official organisation to subordinate components - those Ukazes are the official bulletin for awarding the honour!! Like the Official Gazette / The London Gazette for the UK. So in my view the Ukazes and associated information should be restored. Please be more careful. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:15, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I restored the units with the presidential citations. If those citations are not reliable source, then we should also remove all edits which are referenced by any official gazettes of any country. Ekeb (talk) 07:17, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

no one is saying that these are unreliable, the problem is that they dont mention it fighting at all, just the fact that they received awards. 177.181.243.222 (talk) 01:51, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Naval Infantry from the Pacific Fleet – 40 обрмп и 155 гв. обрмп.

The 40^th Separate Brigade of Naval Infantry, and the 155^th Separate Guards Brigade of Naval Infantry, are both from the Far East of Siberia. The 40^th is based at Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, in Kamchatsky Krai, and the 155^th Guards at Vladivostok and Slavyanka in Primorsky Krai. Together they comprise the naval infantry of the Pacific Fleet. According to ‘Russias Military Posture: Ground Forces Order of Battle’ [Institute for the Study of War, March 2018], these two brigades come under the Eastern Military District. Википедия and ВікіпедіЯ both concur. The 40^th and 155^th Guards brigades are reported to be in action together near Vuhledar, Donetska, alongside the 29^th Combined Arms Army, another formation of the EMD.

Why in this Order of Battle is 40 обрмп grouped with troops of the Southern Military District, and 155 гв. обрмп grouped with troops of the Western Military District? FwdObserver (talk) 04:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

76th Guards Air Assault Division - Military District / Force Grouping

76th Guards Air Assault Division (Russian Airborne Forces) is based at Pskov (near Estonia), and by all accounts comes under the Western Military District. Elements of this division, and of the 106th Guards Airborne (also WMD troops), are lately reported to be operating near Kreminna and Bakhmut, among Motor Rifle Divisions of the WMD / Force Grouping 'West'. Why in this Order of Battle is 76 гв. дшд included among the troops of the Southern Military District / Force Grouping 'South'? FwdObserver (talk) 05:46, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Airborne Forces of Central & Eastern Military District Force Groupings

Why in this Order of Battle are the Central and Eastern Military District force groupings shown without their airborne forces?

The 31st Separate Guards Air Assault Brigade is based at Ulyanovsk, and so comes under the Central MD, yet in this OoB 31 гв. одшбр is included with the airborne troops of the Western MD force grouping.

Also listed here with the airborne troops of the WMD force grouping is the 83rd Separate Guards Air Assault Brigade. This brigade (83 гв. одшбр) is based at Ussuriysk in the Far East, and comes under the Eastern MD.

The 11th Separate Guards Air Assault Brigade is based at Ulan-Ude, and likewise comes under the Eastern MD, yet this OoB has 11 гв. одшбр included with airborne troops of the Southern MD force grouping.

Why are these Air Assault Brigades not listed in the MD force groupings which they belong to? FwdObserver (talk) 23:10, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Make some changes to fix it, feel free, FwdObserver; the Central and Eastern aren't well represented here. Buckshot06 (talk) 08:14, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Airborne forces are directly subordinated to the VDV for about 10 years already. Previously the air assault brigades were organic to the Military Districts, while the VDV were responsible for their training. The comprehensive military reforms discontinued this duality, transfering them to the VDV.B.Velikov (talk) 08:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

If not organic to the Military Districts, are the VDV formations not subordinate to the force groupings - группировки войск (сил) - derived from those districts?

My initial question is why the Air Assault Brigades based in the areas of the Central and Eastern Military Districts are shown as subordinate to the Southern and Western MD force groupings. FwdObserver (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree that ВДВ airborne forces, being not organic to the Military Districts, and apparently deployed to various sectors as required, should be shown in this OoB as troops of the Joint forces grouping. FwdObserver (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Will do. FwdObserver (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The current three/four grouping-of-forces organisation is not properly represented here, certainly. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:18, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Sorry for delayed response - still digesting sudden appearance of группировка войск «Днепр» on April 18th and then the Russian ORBAT published by ISW on the 23rd. In my opinion the operational chain of command needs to be separated from the organisational structure. I have drafted an alternative presentation in my sandbox with the intention of suggesting that approach, but it needs revision. WHAT DO YOU HAVE IN MIND? Should this matter be under a new subject? FwdObserver (talk) 20:07, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

FwdObserver Sorry, didn't see this. Yes, the https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1648926975145156608 re the Dnipr Group of Forces was significant. *This* page is the order of battle and *this* page needs to reflect, properly, the Groups of Forces, and have the admin superstructure cleaned out. Happy to help. Ânes-pur-sàng a significant reorganisation is needed, which should be discussed on this talkpage first. My suggestion, to follow the apparent chain of command as closely as possible, would be to divide known forces into each group of forces; forces with no known GF separately; air forces in one grouping. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:37, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

What you've got in your sandbox is a great start - can I make some trial changes? Buckshot06 (talk) 00:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I will finish what i've begun and bring it into line with the ISW ORBAT. FwdObserver (talk) 19:39, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

ISW link 23rd: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-23-2023 Buckshot06 (talk) 01:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

FwdObserver would urge you to seriously consider removing everything above the words "Combined grouping of forces" in your sandbox except perhaps President Putin, Secretary of the Security Council, and Shoygu. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:15, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Buckshot06 I have put *Organisational Structure* & *Initial groupings* of *Operational Command* into collapsing sections. FwdObserver (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

So my next suggestion for your User:FwdObserver/sandbox page would be to make Combined Grouping of Forces a == heading, and Dnepr, Central, South, etc === level headings. Makes editing each separate section a million times easier, and illustrates the command structure more clearly.

Oh, and also, long live 16 Fd Regt!! Buckshot06 (talk) 22:28, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Structure of the Russian Armed Forces

I think that the relationship between the headquarters of the land, air and sea forces with the general staff is badly adjusted. According to this article they are subordinate to the Ministry of Defense but I always thought they were subordinate to the General Staff. I would also like to ask what is the relationship of the command of the air forces, ground forces and naval forces to the units fighting in Ukraine and what role is played by the Russian National Defense Control Center and the operational directorate of the General Staff of Russia in that war.

Thanks Richard IV. czech (talk) 14:02, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

This article is an Order of Battle. It is not clear why there is so much emphasis on the organisational structure of the Armed forces of the Russian Federation, nor whether such organistional structure needs to be included. If that organisational detailing is to remain, it does need to be separated from the operational command. FwdObserver (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Richard IV Czech, President Putin is leaning forward taking lots of detailed responsibility himself. Logic would suggest that the normal subordination, MOD - General Staff - operations directorate of the general staff, through its leadership of the NDCC, is still functioning as the channel the orders are flowing through. The commands of the ground forces, air forces, and navy have plenty of informal influence, no doubt, but very little operational duties - purely administrative support of their forces engaged. Buckshot06 (talk) 13:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

What is the operations directorate actually for and what is its structure? 109.183.64.170 (talk) 13:29, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Look at Staff (military) and Operations (military staff). Buckshot06 (talk) 05:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine ground force

Do you not know what role the Ground Forces Command plays in the command of the Ukrainian Armed Forces? I thought that he controls the ground forces only administratively (for example, that he buys military equipment), but according to intelligence servers, it seems that the commander of the Ukrainian ground forces directly controls some units. 2001:1AE9:10A6:F500:60A5:B3F2:5DF8:4EAC (talk) 11:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Operational directorate of Russia

Don't you know what the structure of the operational directorate of the Russian General Staff looks like and how many employees it has? 2001:1AE9:10A6:F500:60A5:B3F2:5DF8:4EAC (talk) 11:41, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Please take a look at General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, and expand/update as you wish from ru:Генеральный_штаб_Вооружённых_сил_Российской_Федерации Buckshot06 (talk) 22:10, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

But there is no structure of the operational directorate of the general staff, but only the structure of the general staff. Do you not know the difference between the Operational Directorate of the General Staff of Russia and the National Defense Command Center? It seems that both these institutions have the same tasks 2001:1AE9:10A6:F500:139:DACD:E199:550E (talk) 12:18, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Operations directorates usually have an tracking/operations floor or space, to monitor ongoing activities. The NDMC as can be seen at the Russian language article is the former Central Command Post of the Ops Directorate of the General Staff. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:06, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

ISW "Russian Regular Ground Forces Order of Battle: Russian Military 101" Report

A new report by ISW on the the order of battle for the the Russian Ground Forces was just released yesterday (https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-regular-ground-forces-order-battle-russian-military-101). It might be beneficial in order to update and source the page. --Unfrigginbelievable (talk) 15:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)