Talk:Norman Hunter (footballer)/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: PearlyGigs (talk · contribs) 11:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 11:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Starting with sources.

• What makes the following reliable sources? I'm not saying these are not reliable, just that I need to see more evidence that they meet our definition of reliable sources.
• englandfootballonline.com -- seems to be the work of two fans.
• fa-cupfinals.co.uk -- I can't tell anything about them but they say they are not any kind of official site.
• mightyleeds.co.uk -- seems to be the work of one fan
• englandstats.com -- I see this is listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Links and I will post at WT:FOOTY to ask about it.
• englandmemories.com -- looks like a Vietnamese betting site
• englishfootballstats.com -- can't find out anything about them

Once these are resolved I'll do some spotchecks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library)

Hi, Mike Christie. Thanks for taking on the review. Some of these sites were used before I began editing the article so I really should have checked them out myself. I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment but I'll try and look at them over the weekend. Best wishes. PearlyGigs (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

No hurry; will keep an eye on this page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, see this, which gives an alternative for one of the above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. Thanks for making that enquiry. As there's another citation for the Spain match, I've removed the englandstats one which I'm also unsure about. I've replaced the citations from sources 1, 5 and 6 above. I think sources 2 and 3 might be okay because they are used across a wide range of articles including some that are WP:GA. Even so, I've found additional sources for both statements. Could you please look at the revised citations and see what you think? All the best. PearlyGigs (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The new sources look fine. I've struck three of the ones above; it looks like you're still using the first three. If the other sources do cover the material, there's no need to continue to use the original sources. E.g. I can't see the Liverpool Daily Post story, but I can find other newspaper reports that would cite the 1965 FA Cup Final, so I don't think you still need the original source there. If for some reason you do want to keep any of those sources we can ask at WT:FOOTY or if you can dig up more information about them that could work too. Do you have access to old newspaper archives? If not, I can help look up some of the old material for you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:39, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. I've written to FOOTY about the top three sites to see what they think. Personally, I'd rather not use the two insecure ones but fa-cupfinals.co.uk is cited by over 150 articles including some that are GA. I do have access to the newspapers, thanks, via the WP library. I'll try and find some more sources and come back later today. Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, we seem to have a clear consensus that fa-cupfinals.co.uk is one to avoid, but the other two are okay. "Mighty Leeds" is respected because its creator is author Dave Tomlinson is, to all intents and purposes, an SME. As it happens, I'd already taken EFO out of Norman's article but no matter. I'll remove FACF but, as long as it's okay by you, I'll retain Mighty Leeds. Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

That works for me. Are you planning to take this article to FAC, by the way? If so, I think those sources will get a bit more scrutiny, but I think they're good enough for GA. I'll carry on with the review now you've replaced the fa-cupfinals.co.uk citation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

All three images come from Anefo, and I see from here that they are CC 1.0, so those are fine. Earwig finds no issues. Spotchecks -- footnotes refer to this version:

• FN 25 cites "Although they were newly promoted, Leeds had an exceptional season in 1964–65 and performed a "runners-up double" by finishing second in the league to Manchester United on goal average". Technically the source only covers the last half of this sentence; I wouldn't regard this as a real verification failure, but since bits of text get moved around I would suggest adding a source to cover the promotion, or the fact that they were in the Second Division the previous year.
• FNs 38 & 39 cite "Hunter was a key player for Leeds as they won the Football League Cup and the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in 1968; and the League Championship in 1969." I don't see the dates for these given in the sources.
• FN 42 cites "At the end of the game, Hunter climbed the steps to the Royal box twice; once to collect his own medal, and then again to help Mick Jones negotiate his way up and down, as Jones had been receiving treatment for a dislocated elbow while his teammates had been getting their prizes." Verified.
• FN 50 cites "After 540 Football League appearances ...": the source only says "Leeds appearances"; the second part of this sentence points out that he actually had 726 appearances for Leeds, so we need a source that specifies that 540 only applies to the League.

I'll pause there to let you fix these and do another spotcheck once that's done. You might want to have a look through the other citations in case there are other imprecisions you could tighten up. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. One of the earlier citations covers the 1964 promotion so I ref named that. I decided to expand the 1968, 1969 and 1971 trophies and these pieces have extra sources now. I brought back englandfootballonline.com as it confirms the number of matches he played for Leeds (540 and 726); I also added a source for the BCFC transfer fee which was missing. Could you please check these amendments when you have time? Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 20:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

All good except that I think you need to put back in the sources you had for "Hunter was a key player ..." -- we still need something that supports him being a key player, and ideally "one of the strongest teams in Europe", though I'd be OK with saying that reaching the final of a European competition is evidence of that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Second spotchecks; footnote numbers refer to this version:

• FNs 9, 10, & 11 cite "After playing in a trial match for Leeds United Juniors against Bradford Park Avenue Juniors, Hunter was invited to join the ground staff at Elland Road." This must be in Hunter & Waters, since I don't see it in the other two web citations, and I don't have a copy. Can you quote the supporting text?
• FN 96 cites "The club announced on 23 April that the South Stand at Elland Road would be renamed in his honour as the Norman Hunter South Stand." Verified.
• FN 87 cites "Dave Mackay won an apology and undisclosed damages from Left Bank Pictures." This needs to include a citation for the name of the company, which doesn't seem to be in the source.
• FN 73 cites "The team did well in 1981–82, finishing in sixth place and only four points shy of promotion." Verified.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)