Talk:New York State Route 22/Archive 1

Archive 1

New England route?

I was able to get a copy of a 1925 ALA Automobile Green Book. It lists the routing of the New England routes but does not include a Route 22 in its list. This leads me to believe that NY 22 was never a New England route. The road is definitely numbered 22 (from NYC to Hillsdale) in 1925 but is more likely a New York state highway number that just happens to fit the New England numbering system. Does anyone have more definitive information regarding NY 22 as a New England route? --Polaron | Talk 04:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sources for History

Snce we're not allowed to add anything to this page right now, here's one of the most obvious sources for the history of NY 22(http://www.nycroads.com/roads/state_NYC/). There are also old maps that prove it went into Manhattan. ----DanTD (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can add to the history, I put the inuse tag on the Route description.^Mitch32^contribs 19:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

History notes

• In the early days, the part south of Austerlitz (?) was roughly defined legislatively as Route 1. [1] North of Hoosick to Putnam was Route 22 (total coincidence).

Signed numbers

• 1924: 22 NYC to Hillsdale, 24 Stephentown to Comstock
• By 1926: 30 Comstock to Mooers
• Note US 7 in 1926
• By 1930: 22 Hillsdale to Valatie, 24 Austerlitz to Stephentown
  • 1930 renumbering: 22 became NYC to Mooers, Austerlitz to Valatie became 203, Granville to Comstock became 40 (but 22 has since been moved back)

Turnpikes and other old roads

• White Plains Post Road, NYC to White Plains
• Part of the Northern Turnpike, Salem to Granville

Some information about widening: [2]

--NE2 14:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the original alignment south of White Plains?

Does anyone have better information for the original alignment south of White Plains? Various sources are inconsistent. Any help would be appreciated. --Polaron | Talk 17:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• unclear but appears to be roughly White Plains Rd then modern 22[3]
• Bronx River Pkwy,Oak St,Lincoln Ave,Columbus Ave,modern 22 [4]
• Bronx River Pkwy,Midland Ave,Main St,White Plains Post Rd,modern 22 [5]
• Bronx River Pkwy all the way to Kensico [6]
• Bronx River Pkwy [7]
• 1926 and 1927 Automobile Blue Book turn by turn guides indicate Central Park Avenue was Route 22
• 1930 and 1931 Green Book maps are unclear but appear to use Bronx River Pkwy to roughly Bronxville then shift to White Plains Post Rd

1928 matches 1926 except that the US 7 shield is gone. I don't think we can necessarily assume that the thick line is NY 22 unless it has shields.

New York Times articles appear to be useless, talking about various routes that lead to Route 22 at White Plains without saying which is 22. One article from 1927 does state that it goes "through Bronxville and White Plains". A 1931 book says that it's on the Bronx River Parkway.

From these sources, it appears to have used roughly its present route until the parkway was completed, and then moved to the parkway. However, the 1932-1934 plans for marked routes in NYC all had it cross the border on White Plains Road, and in 1937 it used the current routing through White Plains. The "Route 1" defined by 1909 to be maintained by the state did not specify the exact route, but went through Mount Vernon and Eastchester and then along White Plains Post Road. --NE2 20:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's quite clear that it used Columbus Avenue south of Mount Vernon center. Also, the Bronx River Parkway does not technically pass through either Mount Vernon or Bronxdale (in Eastchester town). When was the Bronx River Parkway opened anyway? My buest guess would be that it used White Plains Post Road from Mount Vernon and Bronx River Parkway from the NYC line to Mount Vernon. So what's the best way to describe the original alignment? --Polaron | Talk 21:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we have enough information yet to say. --NE2 22:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the 1932-34 NYC marked route plans. Why would these plans continue Route 22 on White Plains Road unless it is White Plains Road that is marked in Mount Vernon as NY 22 (at least after 1931). So perhaps NY 22 did follow more or less the White Plains Road to Mount Vernon center and shifted to the Post Road north of there (roughly the old White Plains Post Road). Maybe it was routed on the Bronx River Parkway only from 1929-1931? --Polaron | Talk 21:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

About the routing in Mount Vernon: the NYSDOT quad shows that it's locally maintained in the city. Ths was probably the case from the beginning, as a 1908 map shows the same city limits. I would guess that the signed route followed 1st Street and Lincoln Avenue to Columbus Avenue; these are paved on the 1908 map. --NE2 22:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Route description ideas

Polaron asked me, as part of the collaboration drive, to take a look at rewriting this one in the same more fluid, organic style that I've done for other routes. I certainly will, although I have limited familiarity with the actual road north of Petersburg and south of Bedford. I will do my usual research with Google Maps and visualizations based on close readings of the map.

I propose to jettison the current structure (the Catskills? Come on! And it "enters" the Hudson Valley at Brewster? It's roughly the same distance from the river at that point, and frankly it's so far east I don't consider it a Hudson Valley route, particularly since some sections in northern Dutchess are in the Housatonic watershed) and divide it into the following subsections, based on the character of the road and the landscape it passes through:

• Bronx to Kensico Reservoir: This is where 22 is just another urban-suburban artery. I would guess these first fifteen miles or so probably contain a solid majority of people who live along the road.

• Kensico Reservoir to Brewster: That traffic circle that marks the beginning of the Taconic marks a major change in 22. It turns to the northeast and starts to become the two-lane rural eastern sentinel route the majority of it is known for. This section crosses I-684 several times, meanders through a lot of pricey communities, begins to parallel the Connecticut border in some places, and picks up the Harlem Line near its northern end.

• Taconics and Berkshires: Nothing east of the Hudson is the Catskills, wherever some people in New York City believe their weekend places are. Not geologically, not culturally. Once it crosses I-84, 22 straightens out and runs relatively close to the state line (nearly entering Massachusetts at one point in Austerlitz south of the Thruway). Metro-North follows it closely to Wassaic, where it ends (currently). This section, especially up in Columbia County, is rather lonely, wooded and rural, passing few major communities of consequence save Pawling. But it's quite beautiful and fun to drive.

• Hoosick Falls to Whitehall: Or should I just say Washington County? This area seems to be gently rolling farmland and woodlots of the type pictured. Again, comes real close to the Vermont state line south of Granville.

And I have been there now, and it is beautiful. Hopefully will take pic before the year is out. Daniel Case (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• Adirondacks and Lake Champlain: More about the latter than the former. Some exciting places like Ticonderoga and Crown Point.

• Clinton County: Keeseville to the border. Here 22 changes places with Route 9, running further to the west, inland, while 9 runs along the lake. 22 passes through Plattsburgh but otherwise avoids any settlements of consequence.

Speaking of settlements, we have to trim down that communities box. Many are far too inconquential to be listed separately in a communities box for a route of this length. I'll do that before calling it a night. Daniel Case 07:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggested pictures

Other than the few that are in there, anyway. The nice thing about this road as opposed to Route 9 is that, as a rural route there are far less in the way of particular places that just have to be in there. So, we can concentrate on roadscapes that express the essence of a region without worrying too much about where.

My list:

• Bronx-White Plains: A busy section of street, preferably looking down the road, something showing us the heavy traffic and population of this area, so unlike the rest of the road.

If you want a backup, I was able to get the first NY 22 reassurance shield in the Bronx.^Mitch32^contribs 22:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

• Westchester horse country. There are so many great places for this. Downtown Bedford? The winding, shady lane feel you get there and in Somers and (especially) North Salem? I would like, however, to make sure an image of John Jay's house gets here as one of the few National Historic Landmarks right on 22 itself as opposed to nearby roads. The only one, in fact.

• Harlem Valley. There are some great vistas along the section north of Pawling. Views that can make you think of England. We'll have to wait for warmer weather, though.

I found one near Patterson, actually, where the road goes down a drop and these hills loom in the distance. It sort of makes the point ... if you had come all the way from the Bronx, you'd definitely feel you'd reached upstate at this point. Daniel Case (talk) 05:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's in the article now. Daniel Case (talk) 05:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• Taconics. The way that ridge just north of Millerton looms from near the 44 and 199 junctions, has to be in here. Especially if you can get that bend the road takes into the village in the foreground.

• Berkshires. Something in that deep wooded valley between Stephentown and Petersburgh, perhaps?

• Washington County. I like what we already have, but if someone else has or finds something even better, go to it!

• Adirondack Park and Lake Champlain. Something along the shore that's picturesque.

• Plattsburgh. A street scene.

• Clinton County. Those pine stands mentioned in the text?

I can try for some of these closer to the south end, but it will have to wait till warm weather. Daniel Case (talk) 05:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Nice to have but not necessary

• I-84 bridge north of Brewster. I described it in the text but a picture adds so much. A stitched panorama might be necessary. Looks like a shot from the railroad bridge provides the best angle[8]. This is a really stunning sight even in low light and bad weather ... in summer it would look very cool. Could also be used in the 6 and 202 articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Case (talk • contribs) 02:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually got this one today too. The shot from the rr bridge wouldn't work; I could tell due to the wires. Instead I got one that shows the road and the interstate high above it. Daniel Case (talk) 05:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Also in there now. Daniel Case (talk) 05:55, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Old maps

And might we be able to get some old maps to illustrate the history section? Daniel Case (talk) 18:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The main issue I guess is that many of the maps used as a basis for the early numbering history are copyrighted. It should be possible to create our own maps though. For the routing in NYC, there should be some USGS maps available online that we can crop to show the exact alignment. --Polaron | Talk 00:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Any maps we create from old maps would be derivative works and couldn't be free images. While we should look for public domain images (i.e. USGS maps) to illustrate some of the former routings, I think a section of the old map could be considered historic and irreplaceable as long as the other fair use criteria were observed. Daniel Case (talk) 16:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It's only a derivative work if we incorporate some of the copyrightable elements, such as style. --NE2 15:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Or if some of the information thereon were proprietary, which is usually difficult if not impossible when making maps. However, remember that mapmakers do put copyright traps in their maps, usually not in the rumored form of paper-only streets but often by the extent to which they show the headwaters of streams. That element can also be considered copyright-eligible. However, it won't be a problem here. Daniel Case (talk) 02:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Good Article Assessment

Here is my assessment. GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

Further examination of my findings:

• No evidence of original research. Y
• The prose was readable, and could address a wide-range of audiences. Y
• References were provided, and were reliable making all claims verifiable. Y
• All images were appropriately captioned. Y
• No images are/were flagged as having no source, no licensing information or were used with no-fair use rationale where appropriate. Y
  • A very well written article in my opinion, and I'd suggest asking for an A-class assessment. It's definite that it would meet that criteria. Well done to all those involved, I am passing this article. Rt. 14:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Question

Does anyone really know FOR SURE that NY 22 now ends at US 11 and not the International Border? The sources on that part of the article are confusing as it just links us to another Wiki article. I really don't know either way. I just think there should be more clear sources there considering this article is considered to be FA status. --Airtuna08 (talk) 18:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

According to every DOT document I've found - inventory listing, route log, TVR, etc. - the north end of NY 22 is still at the Canadian border. However, according to this blog post, all signage for NY 22 was removed from the part north of US 11 (which had been county-maintained since 1988, see WP:NYSR/MS) and an "END NY 22" assembly was installed on 22 north approaching US 11 sometime prior to May 2008. A similar scenario is taking place right now in Monroe County: maintenance of NY 252A was transferred to the county in 2007 and all signage for the route except for those on assemblies on NY 383, NY 33A, and NY 386 was removed sometime in 2008 or 2009, yet NY 252A is still listed in every DOT document. The best way to handle this is probably to say "the DOT recognizes the route as doing this, but it's signed as that", which is how other but similar situations are handled on NY 324 and NY 149. For those two routes, the posted ends of the route vary a bit from the official ends. – TMF 05:49, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Too bad that blogger couldn't get a few snap shots, but even if that is the case, they might have just installed an end shield at US 11 to keep the border traffic lower. I know from personal experience the waits in to and especially back into the USA are a lot longer now with the stricter passport laws. And getting in and out of Quebec has always been longer than the other provinces. Plus that's a two lane road, there are probably only two custom agents there opposed to maybe 8 to 10 on I-87. I can't imagine the traffic build up there so anyway to keep it lower for local people/freight transport/etc would be beneficial. How often does DOT release info? The most current I've noticed is 2008 and it has NY 22 going all the way to the border. --Airtuna08 (talk) 20:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The most recent documents I know of are the by-county inventory listings, the latest of which were released about four weeks ago. Like the January 2009 route log and the 2008 TVR (released in June 2009), it has 22 going to Canada. – TMF 20:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Then I would think my theory of limiting border traffic is correct and that the road north of US 11 is still secretly NY 22. What's your opinion though? Do you think that the terminus should be listed as US 11 based on that one blog? I'm skeptical of changing something based on that alone. Here's an example of Wiki going by the official DOT terminus and not the signed terminus. The northern terminus of NY 340 is signed at NY 303, but DOT has it going about a tenth of a mile past this and that's what we have listed. --Airtuna08 (talk) 22:02, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, NY 340 embodies what's been the standard NYSR practice for years when it comes to official vs. signed termini. Other articles that follow that practice - i.e., using the DOT-specified termini as the official termini and noting any signed termini that are different in just the RD or the jct list's notes column - are NY 96, NY 324, NY 149, and in recent months NY 15. The NY 22 signage change and thus the change to this article happened during my hiatus in 2008 and 2009, so I had no input in it at the time.

Here's my take on it now: there is typically some delay between the time when the signage change occurs and when the DOT documents are updated. However, it's been nearly two years since the change has happened, which is plenty enough time for the DOT to change their definition of 22 if they wanted to. Given that, I don't think the DOT has any intention of changing the official definition of 22 anytime soon. I say we should revert the article to use the official terminus - the Canadian border - as long as the border remains the NT in the DOT's documents. If they change it to US 11 in Mooers at some point, we can change it back at that time. – TMF 19:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Do we take this to the NYSR forum or what not and challenge it or should we just be BOLD as Wiki says! --Airtuna08 (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I say just do it. If anyone sees the change and disagrees with it, they can discuss it here afterward. – TMF 23:29, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Change has been made. Until further evidence is provided this should be the case. This article is "FA" but yet very sub-par sources have been used to show supposed truncation. --Airtuna08 (talk) 04:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I further edited the article to reflect everything mentioned above. – TMF 22:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Looks good! (I know 5 weeks later :)) How about the map in the infobox though? That should be updated so the route touches Canada again. --Airtuna08 (talk) 07:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Berkshires? I don't think so...

Why does this article refer to NY 22 as passing through the Berkshires? Just about all sources within Wikipedia show the Berkshires to be confined strictly to Massachusetts and Connecticut, with the mountains east of the Hudson in New York State being referred to strictly as the Taconics. Famartin (talk) 18:07, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Taconics and Greens

I tend to agree that that Route 22 does NOT pass through the Berkshires. I live up this way. The Berkshires is Mass and lived in by folks from Boston. The Taconic are WEST of me (I live on route 22) and the GREENS are to my EAST in Washington County. I have to go out of Renesseller to get the Berkshires in MASS. Even have to go over to Vermont and go through Bennington to get the Berkshires...

Dhibbeln (talk) 02:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Moved from article, part one

I have a suspicion that this was copy/pasted from the sources given below; even if it wasn't, it needs to be integrated into the article, not just plopped in like it was. – TMF 10:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Well it wasn't copy/pasted it was typed by hand from a book that is too fragile to be scanned. It was placed in the section under history since in my humble opinion that is what the section seemed to mean. The article as written desribes well the current state of the road but lacks the information about the history of the road. The WPA GuideBook series was one of the great works of the depression. How do you folks want to integrate this stuff... Dhibbeln (talk) 13:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

For one thing, it cannot be added verbatim as that constitutes plagiarism. Secondly, the first section has a lot of content that I feel is irrelevant to NY 22 - it deals more with the village of Salem than the route itself, save for one sentence. We could do without some things in the second section: for example, the line describing NY 22's routing is redundant to the full route description since the route's alignment hasn't substantially changed since 1940. However, there is some value in the second half of the section - from "The section between Plattsburg" on. But what I'm saying is that the historical details should be added at relevant, logical points in the history, not in one section that breaks the flow of the history. For example, that paragraph should be covered in the "Old roads" subsection of the history, if it isn't covered by the content that's already there. – TMF 20:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Just another comment. On Halloween, the Featured Article of the day was pulled down off the Main Page over a copyright violation and plagiarism. There is a great deal of scrutiny on that issue right now, so we can't invite controversy by doing the wrong thing. Even if the content is in the public domain, it can still be plagiarism to copy text verbatim without the proper attributions. Imzadi 1979 → 22:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

First - I did not commit plagarism and inclusion of text from outside sources is allowed - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Plagiarism. Nor was there any copyight violation under the fair-use doctrine. I provided attributions.
Second - You folks did a great job and I give you lots of pats on the back.- however, you went south to north. The southern sections of the route are full of detail of historical sites, vista's etc. As follows the route north all of the detail disappears. For example, you ignore the village of Salem and Stuff like the historical marker in cambridge on 22 as the great indian warpath. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_State_Historic_Markers_in_Washington_County,_New_York.
You include historical markers in the southern sections eg: John Jay Homestead State Historic Site (the first National Historic Landmark You talk about hamlets in the lower sections, but ignore the hamlets in washington county (eg: After leaving Scarsdale, NY 22 continues north into the hamlet of Hartsdale.[4])
If the goal is to be a description of intersections of pavements its a shame since there is so much more here. This is path of human commerce and interaction since the early 1600's for the white man, and earlier for the native peoples.
From the first part of the article the impression is given that route 22 was born of urban necessity. QOUTE: " The southernmost section of the road was known as the White Plains Post Road in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, a major highway connecting New York City to White Plains, the Westchester county seat. Route 22 in its modern form was established in 1930 as one of the principal routes from New York City to Canada." Commerce flowed from the countryside to the city. In recent moden times tourists flow out of the city, so has the bias of description.
Also remember that section from the WPA GUIDE " The southern strech was opened to carry agricutural products to the markets of New York City. In the early decades fo the nineteenth century, large herds of cattle were driven down this road, and the older taverns south of Hillsdale were built to accommodate the drovers, withe large, enclosed yards for the livestock."
Also I have to wonder about the backup for some statements about terrain and vegetation. Did someone see this stuff on driveby or did it come from arial photography? Why do I ask - because the reference source is a black and white map, it not even topographical map. eg: The terrain around the road becomes increasingly wooded, with long unbroken stretches of pine, in the northern portion of the town.

I'm willing to help, since I live on Route 33 and know the section in washington county. what I need is some guidance how to incorporate what I know about.

Dhibbeln (talk) 00:16, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a magnifying glass or a microscope being focused on content in Featured Articles right now, both currently listed or future candidates. The combs are coming out, and I just want to warn people in general not to dance too close to the cliff concerning those issues. Even if the text is in the public domain, there is still the issue that such text is not our work, and a Featured Article is supposed to be "our best work".

When it comes to highway articles, they are written south to north or west to east to follow the direction of the mileposts in this country. That's a national project standard for all highway articles in the United States. As for inserting additional history, that's great, but you can't just dump text straight out of a book into the article. Even if you provide attribution for the source of the text, verbatim copies can still be a copyright violation. Even if it's in the public domain, at the very least, the text needs to be integrated and restyled to conform to Wikipedia's Manual of Style. We don't use ALL CAPS or <small></small> tags in an attempt to replicate what the source did. The references to the roadway should have been changed to conform to how the rest of the article refers to it. Those are two dead giveaways that there's something up with an addition to an article. Please help improve the article, but let's be careful to avoid trouble. Imzadi 1979 → 00:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Content in question

1940 New York WPA Guide Book Description of Salem NY

"Beneath the rampart of the Taconics to the east, State 22 runs west of the Vermont line. SALEM, 35.5m (500 alt. 1,081 pop), with its well kept houses and spreading maples and elms, is suggestive of Vermont Communities. At the north village limits is GALLOWS HILL (R), where until 1809, public executions were held. A hanging provided a holiday for hundreds of visitors, who arrived with lunches and dotted the surrounding meadow, picnic fashion. The Larmon House, E. Broadway, built in 1790 by John Williams, is an impressive residence in the Georgian Colonial style. A yellow clapboard building with handsome fanlighted doorway and greenblinds, it has a double hip roof, the upper part almost flat. On W. Broadway, the UNITED PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, known locally as the 'White Church' is patterned afterh the white-painted frame, gable-roofe churches common in New England. The horse-and-buggy sheds are still intact. The congregation was organized at Dallibay, Ireland in 1751 and in 1764 moved as a body to Salem. The present or third building on this site was erected in 1701 and is said to be the oldest Protestant church north of Albany. ^[c]

1940 New York WPA Guide Book Motor Tour Highlights

TOUR 20 From 1940 New York WPA Guide Book, Page 535 to 551

(Montreal, P.Q.) - Plattsburgh - Hoosick Falls - White Plains - New York City State 22. Canadian Line to New York City, 349.6m

Railroads
Delaware and Hudson R.R. parallels route between Rouse's Point and Whitehall.
Rutland R.R. between Hoosick Falls and Lebanon Springs.
New York Central R.R. between Hillsdale and New York City.

State 22, the easternmost road of the State, is essentially a rural route (two lane concrete or macadam). Between Plattsburg and Whitehall it follows the long shoreline of Lake Champlain; then it swings east to hug the New England boundry. In Westchester County it connects a series of restricted residential villages.

The section between Plattsburg and Whitehall began as a series of trails alon the lake shore, followed by a part of Burgoyne's army. The southern strech was opened to carry agricutural products to the markets of New York City. In the early decades fo the nineteenth century, large herds of cattle were driven down this road, and the older taverns south of Hillsdale were built to accommodate the drovers, withe large, enclosed yards for the livestock.

Section a: Canadian Line to Whitehall 123.8m
Section b: Whitehall to Hillsdale 118.1 m
Section c: Hillsdale to New York City;; 101.7m

At Route 107.7m State 22 crosses the NEW YORK CITY LINE, 12 miles northeast of Columbus Circle. ^[d]

• c ^[c] New York: A Guide to The Empire State <Compiled by worker's of the Writer's Program of the Works Progress Administration of the Sate of New York. Oxford University Press: New York c1940 page 541 in possesion of author.

• d ^[d] New York: A Guide to The Empire State <Compiled by worker's of the Writer's Program of the Works Progress Administration of the Sate of New York. Oxford University Press: New York c1940 page 535 to 551 in possesion of author.

Moved from article, part two

I also stripped this out because the given source has a few issues. First, these generic claims of maps ("State Highway Survey Maps in Possesion of Author and Landowner") aren't valid citations, certainly not for a featured article. If you have specific maps, cite them using {{cite map}}. Second, conversations with anyone, DOT engineers or not, are not reliable sources. – TMF 10:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi. These are phyiscal maps from the days before the internet and transitors... if you want to see the maps ask the State of New York for " SALEM-GRANVILLE, PART II Highway No. 5336 Washington County." I can add that to the notes if you which...

Hmmn. Reliable sources - When a state engineer of 30 years tenure shows you articles from the period describing the work you tend to believe him. I was alway taught that humans are good sources of history and when attribute statement to that converstion it allows the reader to make their own determination as to its validity....

also would photographs of the milemarkets and old sections satisfy you? Dhibbeln (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, in order to use the maps as sources, we need to provide enough information in the citation to allow others to find the source and verify its contents if they so desire. For the maps, the minimum we need to provide is typically the title ("Salem–Granville, Part II – Highway No. 5336 – Washington County" based on your reply), the date or year of publishing, and its publisher (in this case the state DOT). The best way to format this information is {{cite map}} - just fill in the params, place the template in <ref></ref> tags, and add to the article. As for the latter point, the articles the engineer showed/described would be reliable sources; however, his word - for Wikipedia's purposes - is not since, again, it's not verifiable. On the other hand, if we cited the articles, someone could then look them up in a news archive or at a library.

Photographs have been used as sources in some articles; however, it's not something that I'm totally comfortable with doing. But by all means take them - at minimum they could be added to illustrate the section. – TMF 20:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I've used photos as sources in another Featured Article, but (but!) in that case it was limited to proving that X sign exists and that the sign says what it says. (And then I still included the photo as an illustration in the article.) Anything more though is pushing it. TMF is right. As much of the policy on reliable sources is about a reader being able to verify the content as well as the general reputation of the source. We're not saying that your engineer friend is lying, but unless he publishes his knowledge in a book or on a webpage someplace, we can't use him as a source. Imzadi 1979 → 20:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Content in question

Three mile markers from the Northern Turnpike still exist along the Salem–Granville section of the turnpike's former routing: one is in the town of Hebron near the hamlet of Hebron and another is along a section in the hamlet of Porter. On private lands in the hamlet of Porter, a section of the highway built in 1911 and mothballed in 1935 still exists. The section in 1911 was built to provide a way for horses to navigate a steep grade in Hebron. In 1935, rock drills were used to change the grade to the present level. The cut is visible just north of the hamlet of Porter. State Highway Survey Maps in Possesion of Author and Landowner. Origional Copies at NY DOT Washington County Residency. Also Conversations with State Highway Engineers in 2006.

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Berkshires?

Most sources I can find (certainly those on Wikipedia) describe the Berkshires as being only in Mass and CT, with the mountains along the eastern side of NY state being entirely Taconics. Why, then, does this article refer to mountains in Rensselaer County as the Berkshires? I spent plenty of time there as a kid and certainly no one considered the area to be part of the Berkshires. They were the Taconics. I plan to be bold if I hear no response. Famartin (talk) 03:36, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, New York named that extension of the Thruway the Berkshire Section. Berkshire Bank has a number of branches in Rensselaer County. There is a Berkshire Farm Center for at-risk youth in Canaan (which, to be fair, is in Columbia County, but whatever ...). The Berkshire Bird Paradise sanctuary (where my wife and I once took a wayward release dove we came into possession of) is in Grafton.

So, I'd say that at least some people in eastern Rensselaer see themselves as living in the Berkshires. I have nonetheless added to the article a note that the mountains in New York are, geologically at least, distinct from those in Massachusetts. Daniel Case (talk) 20:14, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

FAR

This article no longer meets Wikipedia:Featured article criteria, and attempts to improve it, and remove unjustified tags, are reverted, meaning that attempts at improvement are forlorn. Consequently, it should be demoted. DrKay (talk) 20:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

WTH? The various map citations are incomplete as they lack a scale and other details. As I noted, even a PDF map will have a scale. If I scan a paper map as a PDF, it suddenly doesn't lose its scale information. Yes, you can print a map at various scaling, but so can I photocopy a paper map and enlarge or reduce it. Unlike Google Maps though, the resolution of the map doesn't change when enlarged or reduced.

Additionally, the various map citations are incomplete in other ways. They are missing map grid section or inset information. Would you consider a book citation complete without a page number? The authors and publishers aren't mixed up either; the oil company and the cartography firm each contributed to the authorship of a map then published by the oil company for distribution at gas stations. The publication location should also be provided, if possible, as a standard component of a citation. In any event, a single reversion under the principle of WP:BRD is not grounds for FAR, DrKay. Imzadi 1979 → 20:31, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Not meeting the criteria is grounds for a FAR. Articles in clean-up categories do not meet the criteria. DrKay (talk) 20:37, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Daniel Case and Mitchazenia: do you have access to the maps being cited? I pulled as much information as I could from http://www.worldcat.org/ , but someone else will have to find the rest of the missing citation information. Imzadi 1979 → 21:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

To follow on, a full map citation should look like a full book citation with the added scale information, and it's more likely to cite corporate authorship with a map. A citation would include the following at a minimum:

• Author (n.d.). Title (Map). Scale. Location: Publisher. City inset. {{cite map}}: |author= has generic name (help) or
• Author (n.d.). Title (Map). Scale. Location: Publisher. § A1. {{cite map}}: |author= has generic name (help)

If there are multiple authors, list them individually. If the scale is not listed on the map, and it's not listed in a library catalog record, use |scale=Scale not given. If it is in the library catalog, enclose it in brackets, |scale=[c. 1:25,0000]. Maps that are dynamically scalable, like Google Maps, do not include scale information, unlike those with a fixed scale on paper or a PDF scan. Omit an inset or section if the map doesn't use either. An ISBN or OCLC number is a useful addition so that readers can locate a copy of the map in a library. Of course, if the map being cited is online, the URL and access date should be provided.

{{Cite map}} was updated in 2015 to correct some practices that don't comport to academic citation styles and don't match with the rest of the CS1 scheme. As a result, older articles that haven't been updated previously may still have incomplete citations. Imzadi 1979 → 23:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

@Imzadi1979: Adam would be the one who'd know about the old map cites ... I don't usually work on article history sections. Daniel Case (talk) 02:23, 13 August 2018 (UTC)