Talk:Myrrha/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Wehwalt (talk) 23:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Not bad, but needs a little work. I tend to go above and beyond the GA criteria and assume the nominator wants to do the same.

Lede

• The first paragraph should in a way be the ne plus ultra of compacting information, and should really be about what the article is best known for. I think you are using it to begin the story in the lede. I would modify the prose.

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• The third paragraph has the word "myth" in consecutive sentences, and it's a bit jarring.

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Origin

• "Ezekiel notes seeing the cult of Adonis in Jerusalem" Perhaps "writes of". I'm a bit unhappy with this given the uncertainty of who wrote any Biblical book. I would rephrase to state that it is mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel. And you never know when you may get religious zealots overrunning your page.

• Agreed and addressed (just used the same phrase as my source, Grimal, but I see your point). Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Myrrha, the girl," Perhaps better, "woman".

• No, what made the story so horrifying was an (to us) underage girl falling in love with and seducing her father without his knowing. I wouldn't call her a woman, since none of the sources of the myth (Ovid, Hyginus, Liberalis, and Apollodorus) does. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Ovid's version

• "Published in 8 A.D." We know this to the exact year? Amazing.

• Yes we do. According to the unsourced Metamorphoses-article and the Doll-paper it was finished in 8 A.D. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "was ahead of its time " Why?

• Stylistically, it was written more like a modern psychological novel which made it stand apart (according to the Doll-paper). I wrote it in the intro to the summary but TCO wanted it to be shorter so I cut it. Don't really know how/where to put it in. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "showed how Ovid was more interested" Perhaps "showed that"? It needs to be changed, either way.

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "questioning how the laws interfered " In what?

• In people's lives, addressed. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "macho". I think that if this is a direct quote, show that it is. If it isn't, perhaps change the word to something less ... macho.

• Redundant, so I deleted. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "The narrator in Metamorphoses ". I would reverse this and say Metamorhoses is not narrated by Ovid, but rather by ...

• Adressed. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Orpheus sentence: Variations on "sing" are used 3 times in sentence. Can this be adjusted?

• Do you know another word? Singing is what he does. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Tells, speaks, addresses, informs ...--Wehwalt (talk) 12:26, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Okay I'll try.

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Cenchreis" If in your view this character is so minor in mythology that there will never be an article about her because she's just a name, then I'd unlink this. Otherwise, fine.

• Another user put the link. She seems like a very minor character, so I've deleted the link for now. If somebody makes an article on her they can feel free to make a new WL. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• I'm not certain you need to constantly remind the reader that Ovid is telling us this or that (isn't it really Orpheus btw?)

• I'm referring to the author when summarizing the myths consequently (same goes for Apollodorus when he "quotes" others). I can delete some of the "Ovid"-mentions though. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "crime"? or sin?

• As far as I know the Greeks didn't use the phrase "sin" very much? I imagine it was both legally and morally criminal to have sex with your daughter at that time, so I still think "crime" is best. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
• Besides, my translation uses the word crime. Mottenen (talk) 18:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "One night when everyone was asleep" Perhaps better, "the household was asleep".

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "and escaped due to the darkness of the night". "escaped in the dark" (or night).

• No it should be read that she escaped because of the darkness (that it saved her because Cinyras couldn't find her). Rephrase? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Other versions

• " All three differ greatly from one another" Perhaps, All three versions differ greatly

• Reworded it, better? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "accounts for three possible parentages for Adonis" I don't understand this fully, perhaps "tells of three possible ..."?

• You just want me to use "tell" instead of "account" or is it something else you're confused about? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "the myth takes place" "is set"

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "She had devised many tricks in order to delay her parents" Perhaps "her parents' marital plans for her". This whole sentence seems a bit florid. You say she devised many tricks because she was being driven mad with longing.

• Yeah I see it. Reworded it, better? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Interpretation

• " has been interpreted with various conclusions" Perhaps, "has been interpreted in various ways" or "has been the subject of a number of interpretations".

• Liked the first one better. Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Second paragraph, first sentence needs rewriting.

• Addressed. Better? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Myrrha is then made into a woman in the grip of an uncontrollable lust" Really, isn't this just repeating the first part of the sentence?

• The point was to make clear she is no longer the innocent little girl, which is shown through her desires. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "It has been argued that incest being a taboo marks the difference between culture and nature. " How about "Smith-Jones (whoever) has argued that the incest taboo is fundamental to a civilized society."

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "When the poor girl has been gripped and consumed by the irresistible desire," POV.

• Better now?Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "she laments that she is not born as an animal, because then there would be no problem with her having intercourse with her father - on the contrary actually, since in the animal kingdom it is not uncommon that horses, goats, birds etc. take their daughters as mates." How about "she laments her humanity, for if she and her father were animals, there would be no bar to their union." I think the reader will know that animals commonly mate with relatives.

• Addressed. Are you sure? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "interpreted as an indirect attribute of Adonis." Perhaps "to be influcences on the character of Adonis"?

• Reworded it to almost your suggestion. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "2 goddesses" Two.

• Addressed. You never use numbers unless on dates here on Wikipedia? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• " In Ancient Greece" Link?

• Yes. Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think we need the full title of Doll's work. Just summarize.

• Deleted the part "the cases of blabla". Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "Doll suggests that both Ovid and Proulx' " I think Ovid needs a 's, but am not positive.

• We better be sure, so "Ovid's". Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Putting a one sentence blockquote out there is sort of POV, it means you are really emphasizing that statement. I would drop it back into the text.

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• I would move the discussion of Orpheus back to your other mention of him and his songs.

• Addressed (and agreed). Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• The Guardian needs to be italicized, and check that article to make sure you are italicizing the proper word or words.

• What do you mean with the proper words? If you mean in the reference, I'm using a reference generator. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Dryden

• I would move this section into Cultural Impact, and surely it can be divided into paragraphs?

• I would like to leave it in interpretation. It is an interpretation of a translation. IF I was to move it, should it be merged into the bottom or the middle? Dividing into paragraphs, addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Okay moved it. Mottenen (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Dryden's conversion to Catholicism have anything to do with it?

• I don't know, it didn't say anything about it in the paper so I would have a hard time verifying such a comment. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Cultural influences

• Why does Myrrha having rabies mean her most serious (not "biggest"!) sin was deceit? Also avoid "This means".

• Sorry, I'm a foreign, wrong word :) reworded it and added note explaining. Note that using "sin" here is okay because it's Dante and his Christian interpretation, not the Greeks' understanding of her "wrong-doing", if you get me. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• I believe essays have titles in quotation marks, not italics

• Right you are! Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "In 1997 the myth of Myrrha and Cinyras was one of just 24 tales" Strike "just"

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "The work as a whole " Split sentence.

• Addressed, if I got you right. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "back in his days" Suggest substituting a phrase involving the word "contemporary"

• Better? Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "The score was aimed at generating tension," Not certain what this means. I would go over this sentence very carefully, anyway.

• It's in the review I'm citing. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "In more recent times, Kristen Kuster has created" I'd say "More recently, Kristen Kuster created"

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "the illustration of Myrrha by Doré featured in Dante's Divine Comedy." Perhaps "Dore's illustration of the legend of Myrrha for the Divine Comedy". No need to mention Dante.

• Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• "represented" "Depicted"?

• I didn't write that, thought it was some smart English phrase somebody did under a ce. Addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Can you tell us why any of the insects and so forth are named for her?

• We are guessing it has something to do with Myrrha being metamorphosed, just like butterflies are from larvae but we haven't been able to locate a source agreeing with us yet. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll give it another read when you've gone through these.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:29, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Awesome go through, WW. Very obvious that you parsed it.

• I'm the source of the Myrrha "the girl" as I think she is under 18 in the story, and the term is more piquant (has an edge to it) more than the tendancy to call all 12+ females women. But I don't care. Besides, I called Suzy a whore.
• Agreed on the article reading too much like independent Dante interpretation. Either we need to cite someone making that point or perhaps, describe it by facts without an assertion. For instance "Dante places Myrrha in the 10 (lowest) circle, that of liars, rather than the 2nd (less sinful) circle, that of sexual deviants." And it's how deep she is in Hell, that is the telling thing. Not the rabies (that's just how punished).
• For the insects, the biology crew should take care of this for Mottenen and there will be something interesting after we look at the inital papers where the things are named. We just haven't done it. But it's just some grunt work, can be done. TCO (talk) 04:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Addressed and gone through all of it now I think. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Not to butt in, but in reference to Mottenen's question about spelling numbers versus displaying them as figures: the MOS recommends spelling the numbers if they can be rendered in one or two syllables (five, six, seven, twelve, nineteen etc.), but using figures when the number is higher (85, 1,935). Obviously, figures should be used when rendering years and in infoboxes and tables where there is little room.-RHM22 (talk) 23:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, should probably read the whole MoS at some time soon :) just couldn't really get myself together to do it when I hadn't even written a GA yet. Thanks for clarifying RHM22. Regards, Mottenen (talk) 23:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I've never read the whole thing. If I did, by the time I got back to the beginning, it would have changed. Anyway, I'm going to pass the article. I think the prose can be improved, and I urge an outside copyedit if you plan to try to advance this article further. Formality of language is a harped-upon thing here on wiki. Good luck!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:12, 17 February 2011 (UTC)