Talk:Mosquito Coast

Disputable facts

The article states that "After enjoying almost complete autonomy for fourteen years, the Indians voluntarily surrendered their privileged position, and on 20 November 1894 their territory formally became incorporated in that of the republic of Nicaragua by Nicaraguan president José Santos Zelaya" but http://4dw.net/royalark/Nicaragua/mosquito.htm states that it wasn't a voluntarily process, but rather a large scale military by the Nicaraguan government. Which are the sources that it was a voluntarily process..? Nilzzon 08:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Original text from 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica, see first edit. You and Royal Ark are probably right, see José Santos Zelaya./213.67.155.120 21:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I too was confused today by the many different accounts of what went down there in 1894 on Google. I found a book by Charles Hale of Stanford (who spent several years with the Miskitos in the 1980s) which clarifies the situation a bit. The Nic. govt. made a move to annex the Coast and the Miskitos resisted - even appealed to England for help. It also turns out the US occupied Bluefields for a month starting on July 6, 1894. The history has apparently been considerably muddied. I'd guess the few Miskitos who are still around are in no position to correct the record. NOT surprised that EB had it upside down. Twang (talk) 23:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The article keeps refering to the atlantic coast as the Mosquito coast. I am from there and we call it Misquito coast.

Yea, it is definitely not the "Mosquito" coast. It should be either Misquito or Miskito since the reference is not to Mosquitoes the insects, but rather to the indigenous people who are called the Miskito. Miskito does not = Mosquito. --70.152.141.101 03:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Return to Honduras

The article says, quoting Britannica, that the northern part was awarded to Honduras by the ICJ in 1960, however, in my 1939 atlas (put out the month WWII broke out, a great reference tool!) the border shows pretty much as it is today - although the cartography isn't as exact as today it clearly shows that the border follows the Segova River from Bodega (a town showing on the Honduran side, but I couldn't find it in a modern atlas) all the way to C. Gracia a Dios, pretty much as it is today (ie that C. Gracia a Dios is the dividing point between the nations). While Britannica seems to be a reputable source to quote in Wikipedia, I'd like to find more citation that this was actually the case (a text of the ICJ ruling would help) --Canuckguy (talk) 03:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Colony and Independence

The Mosquito Coast during the Spanish colonial period was a part of the General Captancy of Guatemala and as of 1803 was added to the Viceroyalty of New Granada. After the independence of New Granada, it was a part of the territory of the Great Colombia (Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela), once the Great Colombia dissolved into individual countries, it continued as a part of the Republic of Colombia. Colombia never exercised it dominium over the Mosquito Coast as it was invaded and occupied by the British. The Republic of Colombia recognized suzerainty of Nicaragua in 1928, as Nicaragua did to Colombia of the Archipelago of San Andres Islands with the signing of the Esguerra Barcenas Treaty, ratified by both countries in 1930. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.244.193.32 (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

1834

The infobox mentions 1834, but there is no other reference to that date. What exactly happened in 1834? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Mosquitos

Is it filled with tons and tons of mosquitos? 32ieww (talk) 22:45, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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• Mosquito Coast.jpg

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Scope of article

There has been a lot of activity the last days in this article and several other articles within the same content area, including what looks like the possible start of an edit war. Since I do not do edit wars, I will try to outline a possible way out of this mess.

So what is this article about? The title is "Mosquito Coast", which is the name that was commonly used for a semi-independent 'state' in the mid-19th century. However, it is also a term used until this day for the geographical area where this polity existed. And that is where this discussion has gone out on deep water. The insistence that the Mosquito Coast ended in 1860 (or in 1894, for that matter) is just not true. Yes, the Mosquito Kingdom was discontinued in 1860 (and its successor polity, the Mosquito Reserve ended in 1894). But the Mosquito Coast still exists as a geographical area, as is acknowledged by Encyclopedia Britannica and in news reports like here, here and a fresh one here. Those news reports are obviously assuming that the term is immediately understood as a geographical term.

This article has to mirror and explain this double usage. In my opinion, the best way of doing this is to focus on the geographical area. The political entities of the 19th century (and before) will then have to be treated in the 'History' section (and summarized in the lede). Whether the content about the kingdom and/or the reservation should be lifted out to as content forks, will have to be decided on the basis of the guideline WP:SPINOFF. T*U (talk) 10:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

The term was never understood to be geographical. The country that was know as the "Mosquito Kingdom", "Mosquitia", or "Kingdom of Mosquitia", was first called "Mosquito Coast" and/or "Mosquito Shore", and prior to that, it was know as Taguzgalpa. That said shore had always extended from Cape Honduras down to the San Juan River; being the length of coast that was inhabited and dominated by the Miskito people; from whom the name is derived. And as Karl Offen said in his article: (Creating Mosquitia: mapping Amerindian spatial practices in eastern Central America, 1629–1779): "At the end of the seventeenth century, Spanish writers stopped referring to a little-known eastern province of the Audiencia of Guatemala as Taguzgalpa and began to call it la costa de mosquitos." So it is clear that it was understood in a political sense from the beginning; that the shore was inhabited and dominated by a people who the Europeans erroneously called "Mosquitos".

Also, when the British and the Spanish signed the Convention of London of 1786, it mentioned that the British would evacuate the "Country of the Mosquitos"; being the said "Mosquito Shore", extending from Cape Honduras down to the San Juan River. Whoforwho (talk) 05:14, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, the name of the country was later changed to "Kingdom of Mosquitia" following the creation of its 'Council of State' in 1846. Whoforwho (talk) 05:16, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I have indented your post for easier reading.

@Whoforwho: You claim that The term was never understood to be geographical. Well, the fact remains that the term has been used continuously up till today, in official documents, encyclopedias, books, news articles etc., to denote the geographical area. Whatever the term was meant to describe originally, it is today commonly understood that way. --T*U (talk) 06:36, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, regarding the name of the kingdom, it may have been officially called "Kingdom of Mosquitia", but analysis of existing sources indicate that the term "Mosquito Kingdom" is the more commonly used term, at a ratio of 2:1 or more in Google Scholar and Google Books, as this ngram also indicates. --T*U (talk) 06:46, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Some mentioned somewhere else; "The history has apparently been considerably muddied. I'd guess the few Miskitos who are still around are in no position to correct the record." Though I am not a Miskito person, i have studied their history. And most articles about their history contains many misinformation, including using the term "Mosquito Coast" and a geographical meaning. Whoforwho (talk) 06:47, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

But I think the confusion is because it includes the word "coast", which is indeed a geographical term. But we can think of the word Mosquito Coast, as Mosquito Land. Becasue that's how the Spanish and the English thought of it; as the land/country of the Mosquitos. Whoforwho (talk) 06:56, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

@Whoforwho: Are we into WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS territory? Wikipedia reports what reliable sourced say; end of story! --T*U (talk) 07:12, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

As regarding the name, the term "Mosquitia" appears to be even more popular than that of "Kingdom of Mosquitia" or "Mosquito Kingdom". The name "Mosquitia" first appeared on a 1787 map by William Faden titled: (Mosquitia or the Mosquito Shore with the eastern part of Yucatan as far as the 20th degree of north latitude); this can also be confirmed with Google Books Ngram Viewer. So in my opinion, and as the most commond practices on Wikipedia. The article could be renamed to "Mosquitia"; being the most commonly used name for this historical country, and start the description of the page/article by mentioning the name that was used officially; The Kingdom of Mosquitia ...... Whoforwho (talk) 07:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

If it's about reporting what the most reliable sources says; then it follows that the name that this historical region is know mostly by is "Mosquitia", and not "Mosquito Coast" or "Mosquito Kingdom". So as I mentioned before. It would be more proper to rename to page under "Mosquitia", and start the description of the article/ page by saying: The Kingdom of Mosquitia...... This can be seen in most articles relating to countries and historical countries. I am simply trying to follow the pattern of Wikipedia, not changing it. Again, check Google Books Ngram Viewer; and compare "Mosquito Coast" and "Mosquito Kingdom' with that of "Mosquitia". This to me is the most reasonable way to change the name of the page. Whoforwho (talk) 07:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense. You cannot compare simple "Mosquitia" with the two others in an ngram, simply because you will get any number of false hits: i.e. all mentions of the province "La Mosquitia" in Honduras, all mentions of the book "Memories of Mosquitia" etc., and it will also include all mentions of "Kingdom of Mosquitia". I have tried a simple Google search for the string mosquitia -"la mosquitia" -"memories of mosquitia" -"kingdom of mosquitia", which should show all mentions in the internet of the word 'Misquitia' where the three terms in quotation marks are not used. I get the amazingly low numer of 158 hits (of which several are about "Honduran Mosquitia" or "Mosquitia in Honduras" or similar, and some are in other languages than English), which tells me that the term 'Mosquitia' alone almost never is used about the region or about the kingdom.

The article about the area will have to remain in the overwhelmingly dominating name "Mosquito Coast", of course mentioning other names, as it currently does.

A possible spin-off article about the kingdom should be named "Mosquito Kingdom" (of course with 'also called "Kingdom of Mosquitia" or "Mosquitia"' prominently placed). --T*U (talk) 08:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

In French, Mosquitie, Côte des Moustiques, Côte des Mosquitos refer to a geographical area. I don't know if the article points out that no countries of the world except Britain ever recognized the Mosquito "Kingdom" (and Britain's protectorate). While one find fairly often the word "king" for the Mosquito chief in historical documents, it seems to me that the word "kingdom" is uncommon, not to say quite rare.--Lubiesque (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

@Lubiesque: A quick search in Google Books and Google Scholar indicate that there are quite enough reliable sources that use the term "Mosquito Kingdom" (or indeed also "Kingdom of Mosquitia"). Whether it is enough to merit a stand-alone spin-off article, is another matter completely. --T*U (talk) 15:06, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

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