Talk:Misandry/Archive 6

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"There is little doubt, of course, that some feminists are misandrists"

This source looks quite academic consensusy. I believe that it legitimizes some sources that do not contradict this statement. The sources that all feminists are misandrists are definitely fringe, but the sources that some feminists are misandrists are quite okay and we shouldn't avoid them. Reprarina (talk) 08:32, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

The source also says that there is little or no difference between hostility toward men for feminists vs non-feminists, so I'm not sure if that'd be appropriate. —Panamitsu (talk) 09:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

It's appropriate in the context that some people think that there are no misandrists at all. Reprarina (talk) 09:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

In that context I agree. We would just have to be careful not to label certain groups as exhibiting misandry per my previous comment. —Panamitsu (talk) 09:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I would be fine with briefly summarizing the source, with the context that Panamitsu mentions. It would be nice to go one-in-one out on the §In feminism section, which is already overlong, with many sources of lower quality than this new one. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I've just had a brief look through the source and here are a few points that perhaps we could mention:

• There is a stereotype that feminism is motivated by misandry: "by the perception that [feminism] is motivated by antimale sentiment, or misandry"
• Some feminists are misandrists, and so are some nonfeminists. "There is little doubt, of course, that some feminists are misandrists, just assome nonfeminists are also likely to harbor negative attitudes toward men."
• Little or no difference between misandry in feminists and non-feminists
• The Stereotype accuracy hypothesis may be worth mentioning (discussed in source).
• "some feminists have claimed that misan-dry is a legitimate, even necessary aspect of the movement.Their argument is that bad feelings toward men are rationalresponses to men’s hatred and mistreatment of women andthat more positive or dispassionate responses would onlyundermine women’s motivation to bring about social change"
• Source has a few mentions of in-group and out-group dynamics.
• Has a few points about anti-misandry in Feminism, eg "Feminists have driven forward significant changes in men’sfavor (Courtenay, 2000) including the repeal of sexist drinkinglaws (Plank, 2019) and laws that define rape in terms thatexclude assaults in which men are victims"
• "people are grossly inaccurate in their understanding of feminists’ attitudes toward men."
• "A multiple regression showed that radical (β=−.24,p< .001)and cultural (β=−.18,p=.003) feminism, but not liberal(β=.06,p=.330) or women of color (β=.01,p=.910) fem-inism, were uniquely associated with less positive explicitattitudes toward men"

—Panamitsu (talk) 09:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Grammatical correction of a sentence in the Misandry article.

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):
• Why it should be changed:
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

−

Echols also claims that, after her attempted murder, Solanas' SCUM Manifesto became more popular within radical feminism; but not all radical feminists shared her beliefs.

+

Echols also claims that, after Solanas attempted to commit murder, her SCUM Manifesto became more popular within radical feminism; but not all radical feminists shared her beliefs.

In the Article "Misandry", under "In Feminism", in the 2nd paragraph it states:

"Echols also claims that, after her attempted murder, Solanas' SCUM Manifesto became more popular within radical feminism; but not all radical feminists shared her beliefs."

This would seem to suggest that either Echols or Solanas were the victim of an attempted murder from the usage of the word "Her". However, if it is taken in context with the 1st paragraph which states:

"However, radical feminist arguments have also been misinterpreted, and individual radical feminists such as Valerie Solanas, best known for her attempted murder of Andy Warhol in 1968, have historically had a higher profile in popular culture than within feminist scholarship."

It can be inferred that the statement I am proposing to edit is referring to a Murder attempt made by Solanas. If this is the truth of that statement, then it would be better to change it in to:

"Echols also claims that, after Solanas attempted to commit murder, her SCUM Manifesto became more popular within radical feminism; but not all radical feminists shared her beliefs."

This is a simple grammatical correction. I hope this can help with clarity. Fantredath (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I think this a good change. But I'm tired and the grammar is hard. Could someone else do it? Talpedia 06:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

This edit is all too complicated trying to do it - I just wanted someone else to do it! The reasons for this are complicated. Talpedia 06:50, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

I've just made the change but I have a high propensity to switch words around in accident (it's 11pm for me), so someone please do check over my change. —Panamitsu (talk) 10:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Replaced her Solanas' with the. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 19:24, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Big study finding evidence of widespread anti-male bias

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2022-61496-001?doi=1

Little is known about implicit evaluations of complex, multiply categorizable social targets. Across five studies (N = 5,204), we investigated implicit evaluations of targets varying in race, gender, social class, and age. Overall, the largest and most consistent evaluative bias was pro-women/anti-men bias, followed by smaller but nonetheless consistent pro-upper-class/anti-lower-class biases. By contrast, we observed less consistent effects of targets’ race, no effects of targets’ age, and no consistent interactions between target-level categories. An integrative data analysis highlighted a number of moderating factors, but a stable pro-women/anti-men and pro-upper-class/anti-lower-class bias across demographic groups. Overall, these results suggest that implicit biases compound across multiple categories asymmetrically, with a dominant category (here, gender) largely driving evaluations, and ancillary categories (here, social class and race) exerting relatively smaller additional effects. We discuss potential implications of this work for understanding how implicit biases operate in real-world social settings.

The article generally dismisses valid concerns that several groups have expressed over the past decade or two without citing to evidence that tends to support the notion that misandry is fairly prevalent in modern society; for example, the foregoing study which found anti-male bias to be stronger than class and race bias. 24.234.86.222 (talk) 01:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

sorry, to be clear, the evidence is BURIED and scarcely referred to in a section entitled "psychological studies," which shrouds the probative value. I believe there should be a section entitled "Prevalence," "existence" or "empirical studies." And there should be more than just a one sentence blurb. 24.234.86.222 (talk) 01:57, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the current phrasing of that study is already problematic as it lacks context and explanation. All this article has from the study has Implicit Association Tests find a reflexive distaste for men and preference for women on the part of both sexes. It raises the questions (but is not limited to): What tests, how was the study performed? Bias in which areas? Who performed this study/what journal so we can assess the quality? etc —Panamitsu (talk) 02:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The study by Paul Connor et al. is a primary research paper. We generally don't cite primary sources for significant claims. There could be flaws in the methodology or interpretation. Evaluating Connor's paper, James Chamberlain et al. write, a strong gender effect was found, such that positive terms were most closely associated with high class women. [...] It is impossible to tell if this finding reveals a genuine evaluative bias on the part of the participants, or is the result of the confounding effects of the gender stereotyped content of the stimuli. Connor's study was not even focused on whether one form of bias was stronger than another, but was meant to evaluate the simultaneous effects of multiple intersecting social categorizations. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 12:00, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

A minor issue

Just a suggestion... When looking up Misandry I found quotes from this stating that Misandry is a minor issue. With men committing suicide at the highest rates in history and leaving the US to start families, it seems logical that misandry is not a minor issue. At least, it is not a minor issue today where in the past it may have been. 47.227.180.59 (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It's minor compared to misogyny which is huge and has been for thousands of years all over the world. Misandry has only been a thing for a couple of decades. Binksternet (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"Misandry has only been a thing for a couple of decade". According to your opinion, not according to RSs which find misandry in Shakespeare, in Jonathan Swift, in Ancient Greek pieces. Reprarina (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

What sources suggest that misandry is a cause of suicide or emigration? EvergreenFir (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is that conflating misandry and suicide is a form of synthesis which we can not do unless there are sources which do this. Sources generally do describe it as a minor issue, I have not come across many sources which don't. And as EvergreenFir mentioned, I don't think there are even any sources which list misandry as a cause of suicide, but I'm happy to have a search. It would be great if you could provide your sources! —Panamitsu (talk) 21:24, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

WHy is it necessary to qualify it as anything at all? Isn't this an informational page that's meant to provide an overview of the subject not prescribe how relevant/prevalent/percieved it is? A minor/major within what? Is there a graph that plots how 'important' a subject is within a certain discource that readers should be aware of? 203.91.244.159 (talk) 06:50, 17 January 2024 (UTC)