Talk:Military on Gotland/Archive 1

Draft talk page

@Ceannlann gorm: Hey, waddoyouknow, drafts also have talk pages. :) This is where you write all the comments and things you want to ask about instead of on the draft page itself. This page will be included in the history of the article talk page when it is moved to main later. w.carter-Talk 19:33, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Right. I just thought the bolded short notes & longer development notes in the temporary textboxes would save you some time if you came while I was away from working on the draft. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:38, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice thought, but nawh... it's ok to post them here. The box-thing makes the text go far outside my computer and hard to read. Btw, the coat of arms is very good as a picture for the article. The pic used in the hook is not the "end pic" but the main article pic. And do stop centering pics, that is considered bad form except in special circumstances. Let's start with just building a nice article. w.carter-Talk 19:41, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Got you. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:48, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

By the way, I added a handy GotlandsResor timeline of important events that I came across to the External Links section in the main article. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that, very nice. About the "eras": They are great as work names, but in the final article the WP don't give a rat's ass about eras unless they are called so in several history books. The final sections should just be the years such as 1300-1400. Once you have got more facts and things on the page I'll help you structure up the article. From what I can see you really seem to enjoy having your very own article to play with. Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea to get an account after all. w.carter-Talk 20:04, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Ceannlann gorm (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Commons

@Ceannlann gorm: A little gift for you. I have started to collect Gotlandic pictures with some sort of military connection in a new category at the commons. :) here I have changed the commons category in the draft. w.carter-Talk 21:24, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Great! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

New opening

What do you think of the new opening so far? Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:26, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ceannlann gorm: Looks promising. It's always good to start with a "History" section with subsections. Are you writing the text first and working in the references later? Every editor works different, I always add the refs as I go along so I can remember where I found the facts, but this is your article and your way. ;) In the end the articles looks the same with refs and all, no matter when they were put there. Just keep in mind that you must be able to verify everything if it's going to make DYK later. Nice work, w.carter-Talk 21:33, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

It depends. Sometimes I add the refs on the go, other times I add them in later. I suppose I might have a slight bias towards the latter approach. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:37, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ceannlann gorm: I don't know if you've seen this site. Lots of goodies. w.carter-Talk 23:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice find! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah, this is the main part of that website we got the very useful "Gotlands Marindistrikt" & "Militärbefälet på Gotland" articles from. Goodies indeed. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 23:12, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll finish up for the night. See you tomorrow sometime. Good night! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Gripen deployments in 2013 and 2014

According to this the Flygvapnet has deployed the Gripen to Gotland on a couple of occasions, once in 2013 and once last year. They were (very) temporary deployments with 4 aircraft on the first one, two on the second, and apparently were based out of Visby Airport. Unfortunately the deployments seem to have been little more than PR exercises. I'll see if I can work those deployments into the article at a later time. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Notes section / Article structure.

Thanks, didn't think we were at that stage yet. So, what do you think of the overall article layout so far? Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, perhaps I was a bit premature in adding an edit, but I was (of course) curious and I read it and thought it might be a good idea to show you how notes could be done in case you wanted to add more of them. Now, I am the "unofficial promoter" of all things Gotland here, and with each new edit you add, I sort of bang my head against the wall cursing myself for not having thought of adding it myself earlier. Read: It is that good and I appreciate your work on it very, very much! But we can't do the final layout and tweaking until all the text is done. w.carter-Talk 22:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Not at all! It saved us the trouble of doing it later. I'm all in favour of labor saving devices, including helpful co-workers. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 22:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Also: I sometimes take photo requests of things Gotland (see this) so if there are some specific pics missing, I can go a-hunting later. I use a couple of gun ranges close to Tofta from time to time, so I can just bring my camera as well. Cheers and Good Night, w.carter-Talk 22:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Night! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 23:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Notes from the draft

Moved the notes and talk here since it is the right place for them.

From the currently scrapped 'Eras of Fortification' section; We might be able to use this somehow, though there are major gaps and caveats.

• First known era of major fortifications: From around the late 300s BC (sometime shortly before 200BC) to early 100s AD or thereabouts; This era may actually consists of two or more overlapping periods. The Fortified town of Visby was built and expanded during this time (founded around 13AD)

• Second era: From the 1300s to the 1400s

• Third era: From the 1500s to the early 1600s

• Fourth era: From the 1810s to around the 1880s, including a very busy period in the 1860s to 1870s when a number of well designed major artillery forts were constructed.

• Fifth era: 1939 to 1989, A massive new round of major construction began as the World headed for a new world war, and continued right on into, and throughout the Cold War. From the late 1940s the entire northern part of Gotland became a even more heavily fortified military only zone, a status that was only rescinded in the early 1990s.

Above section moved from draft. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Coat of arms

• As you have probably recognised , this is the Coat of Arms of the former Gotlands militärkommando. It is currently in use as the Coat of arms of the Gotlandsgruppen, which, except for around 8 officers, exists solely on paper. In theory, the Gotlandsbataljonen comes under the Gotlandsgruppen but in practice they report directly to their current parent regiment, the 1st Marine Regiment, except for what ever day to day tasks Regimental HQ delegates to the Gotlandsgruppen officers on the ground. It seems to be much the same arrangement at the Tofta firing range; the range these days comes directly under the 1st Marine Regiment for administrative and most operational matters, but for work directly onsite, including oversight of any civilian contractors on long term contract or call, the job is again delegated to the Gotlandsgruppen, who conveniently have their offices in the range.

Gotlandshemvärns bataljonen==Gotlandsbataljonen?

I've been meaning to ask you, is the Gotlandshemvärns just another name for the Gotlandsbataljonen? If that is indeed the case, then one of the photos at our commons category would seem to indicate that the Gotlandsbataljonen training section, rather than being based in Visby itself, is actually based at the Gotlands försvarsmuseum site in Tingstäde , along possibly with the battalion's main assembly area on Gotland?

Otherwise, we may have a bit of a mystery on our hands. Must look through the refs again when I get a chance later.

As of 2014, there were around 40 personnel known to be actively involved with military matters on Gotland. 20 of those were civilian contractors (the bulk) and government employees, assigned to specific duties or on call. 8 were the officers that make up the Gotlandsgruppen. So the remaining 12 must be the reserve & regular personnel (on duty rotation?) that make up the Gotlandsbataljonen training section. Of course all that doesn't mean that the Gotlandshemvärns bataljonen isn't just a ghost formation or something of the sort. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 13:52, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ceannlann gorm:So, talk at the talk page as it should be, otherwise it will not be preserved in the right place when the article goes live.

Yes, they are the same. See this. In Swedish "Gotlandsbataljonen" is just a short way of saying "Gotlandshemvärns bataljonen". Is is part of the Hemvärnet (Dad's army) and not the regular military forces that goes by the name of "Gotlands regemente". The hemvärnet on Gotland is just said to carry on the tradition of that regiment.

I don't think the sign on the museum has anything to do with where the actual training is taking place, it just indicates that the museum also have things related to the Hemvärnet on Gotland as well. Also it is two years old. w.carter-Talk 14:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Here's a good page about air force (or lack of) on Gotland [1] and further to [2]. w.carter-Talk 14:22, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ceannlann gorm: Hmm, I just occurred to me that you may not know exactly what Hemvärnet is. Those are not regular soldiers, but have other jobs, but they have some military training and a safe with weapons at home. On their spare time they train in military matters just like we edit the WP. If a situation should arise, the are called into action. This might be what you refer to as a "ghost battalion", since I have no doubt that they are as many as a battalion. At least they manage to clog up the town pretty good sometimes with their exercises. w.carter-Talk 14:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks w.carter for the clarification. I already knew about the Hemvärnet, they're similar in some respects to our RDF (formerly the FCA). RDF personnel aren't generally allowed to keep service weapons or equipment at home though, the Hemvärnet is closer to the Swiss model on that score. Another difference is that, even during the Cold War, the FCA was starved of resources like the rest of our Defense Forces, our politicians having more important things to spend the money on (one of the few real exceptions to this rule being the Army Ranger Wing which was originally formed in the 1970s to help keep said politicians hides intact!). Even the border operations were run on a shoe string, more or less.

On the issue of ghost formations, I was thinking more of paper units & formations without any actual personnel or equipment assigned that are in theory are available for activation from an administrative viewpoint. The idea is that in a war emergency or similar it would speed up the creation of new units and formations by having an administrative framework already in place for them. However, the concept has often been used for less than noble ends, especially in the post-War era. Inflation of the rolls for personal or political gain is one that has occurred on a not infrequent basis in various parts of the world.

I think those aircraft links you found will be quite handy for additional references after we get the article up and running.

Returning to the draft, we have still have a creaky skeleton, but one with a fair bit more meat on it now. I'll see if I can fit in the Visby corvettes (or rather lack of them especially so far as Gotland is concerned) and the token Gripen deployments in, then start plugging in more references & inline citations to get the draft ready for the C & C work. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Copy that. You're go for edit. :D w.carter-Talk 21:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Have to finish off and ref up in the morning! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 22:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Ready for the chiseling and carving, Mr Carter. Take it away. Now I think I'll go and have a nice quiet game of Civilization V. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

That seems like a very good idea after all your hard work. :) It will take to time to translate all of this into "encyclopedeese" since that has to be absolutely neutral and as timeless as possible, with no bias or embroidery. You have a good style for telling a story, unfortunately I have to "destroy" some of that to appease the powers that be here on the WP. Just keep in mind that I'm the good cop. ;) It would be good if you take a look later in the history of the article and see what words or phrases I have sorted out. That was the way I learned how to edit here. It feels like a bucket of ice-cold water over you head the first time, but you get use to it. So, give me a couple of days. I'll ping you when I'm done. Cheers, w.carter-Talk 21:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC) (aka Ripley ;) )

Roger that. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Coming along nicely

@Ceannlann gorm: I've done what I can with the article for now. Some more refs needed, otherwise it looks ok. I also made a request for a copy edit, you should have got the ping for that. And it seems we should go with the "on" instead, as you can see in that discussion. Not far from go now. :) w.carter-Talk 11:17, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I see we're live. . I'll do a couple of quick edits then and then finish up the rest of the tidying up tomorrow. Thanks for all your help. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

It's been a pleasure working with you, looking forward to more projects if you want. w.carter-Talk 22:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The feeling is mutual. Onwards to the next battle! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 22:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

A note regarding Swedish Naval Aviation

Some of the sources/refs already added seem to indicate that the Air Force had absorbed Naval Aviation as early as 1926 (the year the Swedish Air Force was founded); I've held off modifying the relevant text in the article until I had double checked it but so far it appears to be correct. I'll probably modify the Air Force section and possibly a related note sometime tomorrow or Monday. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Torpedo launchers?

Morning w.carter. It just occurred to me this morning; were there ever any shore based and/or underwater torpedo launchers as part of the coastal defences? Ceannlann gorm (talk) 09:48, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Top o' the mornin' to ya too. Beats me. Sorry, I'm not a military expert, I just live on the island. I've never seen anything resembling that, but that doesn't count. w.carter-Talk 10:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks anyway. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 11:55, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Svenska skifferolje AB (SSAB)

I was thinking of mentioning this in a future update. During the war, navy, air force, and presumably army units on Gotland were increasingly dependent on fuel produced from shale oil. The above named state company was set up in 1940 for production of such fuels for various critical civil and military applications around Sweden (mentioned here, Swedish wiki entry here). Ceannlann gorm (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Latest news

@Ceannlann gorm: According to the news today the Russians are rehearsing: see this. w.carter-Talk 20:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, it gets even better; remember this bone?: Russia examines 1991 recognition of Baltic independence (BBC)

Yep. And, ahem, the ping don't work unless you sign you post. But I had it on my watchlist. Reprint? w.carter-Talk 19:10, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Something along those lines would seem to be called for, given how fast things are falling apart. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I see that the Särskilda operationsgruppen are carrying out more PR exercises in your neck of the woods. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 12:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@Ceannlann gorm: Gotland in November is void of people and as far from the beaten path as you can get. Guess they have to train somewhere, preferably someplace where no one sees if they >bleep< up. Btw, I don't live there anymore. Job-related move to new location during summer. w.carter-Talk 13:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Good luck with the new posting! Ceannlann gorm (talk) 12:50, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

During the last days there has been reports on the radio that the closing down of the regiment on Gotland was a premature decision ("surprise!"). They are now worried that the housing for the new group will not be ready in time. When this hits reliable web sites, I'll send links to you. w.carter-Talk 13:00, 12 November 2015 (UTC)