Talk:Marx Brothers/Archive 1

Archive 1

Karl Marx, etc.

And, in the art spirit of serious Marxism, you shouldn't forget their older brother Karl Marx :-) sjc

Not to mention the excellent soundtracks for A Night at the Opera and A Day at the Races by Freddie Mercury and company. RjLesch

Their father, I seem to recall, appeared as Gummo -- but was this in vaudeville or the plays? I don't think he's evern in the movies.

Gummo was a brother (the oldest, perhaps); he was on stage, but bowed out before they did any movies. Worth mentioning, though. Groucho later said that he thought Gummo was the funniest one of them all. RjLesch

Someone should try and paraphrase David Thomson on the Marx Brothers. Really quite extraordinary analysis.

What does Zeppo look like? I've seen Duck Soup, A Night at the Opera, and Horse Feathers and can't place him. Koyaanis Qatsi

Zeppo usually plays dull characters, usually Groucho's secretary. I'm fairly sure he's in Animal Crackers. I also thought Gummo was the eldest brother, but I could be mistaken. -- Tarquin

The birth order was Chico, Harpo, Groucho, Gummo, Zeppo. Zeppo's problem was that he appeared so normal. If he had had some kind of shtick he might have stayed in movies longer. Eclecticology

Gummo was actually in the vaudeville act briefly but hated it. He became a successful hollywood agent. Zeppo always plays Groucho's assistant of some kind, his secretary in Animal Crackers, his son in Horse Feathers, his asst. in Duck Soup. In Monkey Business, he is presented on an equal footing as the others but they still don't give him any lines when he's onscreen with the three, so he falls flat. interestingly, though, he plays the role of a leering sort of playboy type (wannabe anyway) and he's quite attractive on his own. all too soon, tho he falls in love with a girl and becomes a bland love interest again. richardk

I Believe Gummo dropped out because he was drafted into the first world war.

Supposedly, Zeppo played Groucho's part once on stage when Groucho was sick, getting lots of laughs, not to mention a miracle cure for Groucho, who was back the next day. Zeppo could literally walk the walk and talk the talk, but the dynamics of the act didn't have room for another comic character. I read this in a biography. If I can document it, I'll add it.Ortolan88 19:02, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have heard a variation in this story that it was about Harpo replacing Groucho.

Humor Risk

Comment moved from Marx Brothers, re "Humor Risk":

[I have seen this given as "Humoresque" which makes more sense. - richard@archive.org]

• "The Groucho Phile" gives it as "Humor Risk". I assume that the title was a pun on "Humoresque". -- Infrogmation 02:35 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The description of "Humor Risk" seems to keep being changed back and forth. IMDB lists it as "1926", but other sources place it at 1921.

This site seems to be the best webpage on the movie I found in a short search (dispite the wacky formating with text as headlines).

If I recall correctly, there were two showings at the same theater on the same day, one to a mostly adult audience and one to a mostly child audience. While apparently never given mass circulation there seems a possibility that a print might have been shown more, but no confirmation.

I can't find any indication, as claimed by the anon editor, that after the showing the print was "then immediately destroyed." More likely it was lost or deteriorated, as old nitrate stock was wont to do. -- Infrogmation 18:53, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Birth order

Actually, Chico wasn't the first born. Manfred Marx died as an infant before Chico was born. Some say that this is the reason Chico was Minnie's favorite (much to Groucho's remorse). SSS

Dates of birth?

I'd like to know how the birth dates were researched. I'm a longtime fan and I had always understood the birth dates of the brothers as follows: Chico - 1891 Harpo - 1893 Groucho - 1895 Gummo - @1897 Zeppo - 1901 - at least that stayed the same

Also, it was my understanding the Sam Marx tried to change his name to Marrix as the boys were growing up, because he was ashamed of the name Marx. Binklebomb (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC) Binklebomb

Throughout his book "Harpo Speaks!" Harpo when he speaks of his age it all consistently works back to 1893. A good example is when he speaks of his friends having a 35th birthday party for him in 1928. Everything works back to 1893. It also seems logical for his birthday to have been 1893 and that the following is correct as from the above comment Chico - 1891 Harpo - 1893 Groucho - 1895 Gummo - 1897 and Zeppo - 1901. Otherwise there would be a big gap between the first three and the last two (if Gummo's is correct). Why would Harpo lie about his age throughout his book? Everywhere he's consistent in his age going back to 1893. Peter Jensen (talk) 22:26, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits

Much of the article had been written by somebody who either used a translating tool or English was not their first language —I've worked on the grammar of these sections, corrected typos and changed the layout. It still needs more biographical detail - redcountess 06:48, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

I believe that they also made a radio series, which may have been taped but was deleted. 'Flywheel, Shyster and Flywheel'. The BBC made a reconstruction of it - it's about a dodgy lawyer, and featured Groucho as Flywheel, and Chico as Ravelli. I don't know for whom it was originally made, or who were the actors in the BBC reconstruction, which was from the late 1980s, but I do know that it was funny, and that it is still funny. Krustythebaker 21:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)--Krustythebaker 21:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Some links about the radio series:

[1]

[2]

[3]

I think there is material enough to write something about it, if someone gets the time. Anyhow it is from 1990-1992. Michael Roberts played Groucho and Frank Lazarus played Chico. The original dates from 1930 and was written by Nat Perrin and Arthur Sheekman. Mlewan 17:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I came over here to Talk wondering what was looked for, regarding the citation request for "After publication in a book they were performed with Marx Brothers impersonators for BBC Radio.", and going to offer [4], myself. It's shorter on detail (also currently has no audio active links (although is often being repeated!), and may be geographically limited when it does), but on top of the rest surely deals with any remaining Citationicity that remains over the half a dozen years or so since the above was said. 178.107.249.215 (talk) 11:48, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

This article is absolutely gorgeous! One of the greatest in all Wikipedia! A gem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.199.34.154 (talk) 03:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Image?

Could someone provide a rundown, in the caption, of who each person in the "early photo" image is, from left to right? Kaz 18:54, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Early Photo Order

The run down from left to right is: Groucho, Gummo, Minnie (mother), Zeppo (age 13), Sam (father), Chico and Harpo. "The Groucho Phile"(Marx/Arce:Galahad Books 1976) pp23, places this photo about the time of their vauderville act "Fun in Hi Skule". MBG

Influenced By The Marx Brothers

Many other articles have a similar subsection. Wouldn't it be prudent to illustrate the influence that the Marx Brothers had on other comedians/media/etc.? For instance, Spike Milligan addmitted ("Monkey Business" page 414) that he was heavily influenced by the Marx Brothers in his development of sense of humor and his writing. IrishGuy 08:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

  The Beatles' "A Hard Day's Night"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoffeeHead (talk • contribs) 03:27, 17 August 2015 (UTC) 

Frenchy spelling?

The intro paragraph notes the father as "Frenchie" while the photo caption notes him as "Frenchy". I have no idea which is right, but someone might want to consolodate the spellings to some correct or at least some standard spelling TheHYPO 06:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"Mediocre"?

There are a lot of value statements in the article. For example: "the Marx Brothers made three mediocre films before leaving MGM, At the Circus (1939), Go West (1940), and The Big Store (1941). None of these had the quality and success of their first two MGM films".

I'm not against value statements as such, but shouldn't they be based on references? Or at least true? And preferably both. All these three films are still broadcast occasionally on television channels and you can buy the DVDs in many countries still now 60 years after their release. That's an indication that they cannot be that mediocre. It would also be good if the statement about their "success" was quantified in box office numbers for example. Mlewan 09:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

As no one defended the word, i removed it from the article. Mlewan 02:00, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Groucho in "The Marx Brothers Scrapbook" (Harper & Row:1973) described the last 3 MGM films as "three of the worst pictures we ever did." Numerous writings on the Brothers' films describe why these films are not up to the standard of "...Opera/...Races" ie death of producer Irving Thalberg, no testing of the script in live theatre tours. But there is still great comedy in these films and have enjoyed a long life reissued, shown in revial houses and in video and DVD. If you make a stream of five rolled-gold comedy classics from "Monkey Business" to "Day at the Races", is there any other place to go but down? [[Matthew Bateman-Graham|Matt] 12:05 29 March 2007

Jewish???

Quotation from Talk:Irish_Traveller (see also Yeniche_(people)):

Although there is no official statement with respect to this genocide, Jenische now have the status of a national minority in Switzerland and of a Volksgruppe (people) in Austria. Famous members include, according to the German Wikipedia, Marx Brothers, denoted wrongly (?) as Jewish by the English Wikipedia Marx Brothers.

--WernerPopken 09:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

They are referred to also as "jenisch Jewish". Looks like an example of a fairly common cultural divide across the pond. Something similar with Charlie Chaplin. Hakluyt bean 23:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

In Groucho's and Harpo's biographies, they identify themselves repeatedly as Jewish. As neither they nor their families are from Germany, I question whether German Wikipedia is authoritative on this point. (Although, since their father was a Plattdeutsch speaker, I concede that their ethnicity isn't entirely clear cut.)

Their mother came from East Frisia and will by consequence have spoken "Plattdeutsch" (Low German), whereas their father came from Alsace and must have spoken a variant of Upper German and/or French.

The German article "Jenische" (which is generally a sad mix of facts, myths and ignorance) claims a mixed jenish and jewish background for the Marx brothers, with particular regard to their maternal grandfather, who is said to have lived caravaning around the country, working as a tinker and performing as a ventriloquist. One of the users responsible for this passage claims to be relying on various sources: some weblinks of not even disputable quality; authobiographic writings by Groucho ("Grouch and Me", "Memoirs of a Mangy Lover") and Harpo ("Harpo Speaks"), and Charlotte Chandler's biography ("Hello, I Must be Going: Groucho and His Friends"). I have not read any of these, but I doubt that they would tell us anything about Jenish descendance.

"Jenish" is not an exact ethnic term, but rather a post festum construction of quasi-ethnic identity for the descendants of homeless or mobile classes in Germany, Switzerland and parts of France. Jenish people used to be rare in the Northern parts of Germany, their language or rather argot too was based on Upper German Dialetcs (with lexical borrowings from Romani, Yiddish and Romance contact languages), so an East Frisian grandfather, even if caravaning around the country, is not an ideal case for proving Jenish descendance (whereas Alsace would be a more likely region for Jenish people). In the end, one would have to check the above sources in order to find out how Groucho & co. saw (or wanted to have seen) their descendance. Jewish is for sure, but Jenish seems doubtful.--195.233.250.6 15:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Name change

"During World War I, anti-German sentiments grew, and the family tried to hide their German origin. Harpo changed his real first name from Adolph to Arthur, and Groucho discontinued his "German" stage personality." During I World War Hitler was just a soldier. Did Harpo change his name because of this? Or did hi change it later, after the IWW

The change had nothing to do with Hitler. Adolph was a German sounding name, though and it was changed to avoid the Teutonic linkage, just as Groucho dropped his German accent. Shsilver 01:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

New Image

This image is public domain from the LOC, and it might be used to replace the canadian copyright photo in the article. Cjosefy 18:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'd be for making this the main photo of the brothers. It captures who they are a lot more than the family photo does, the article isnt about the whole family, it's the comedy four-some. I'd be all for switching the images.Ganfon 03:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Harpo

Harpo(Apolph, Arthur) Marx did not auctually change his Name because of hitler, he changed in around 1911 before world war 1 broke out

Art Fisher??

Art Fisher never exist, it was a urban legend. Simon Louvish and Paul Wessoloski (Wesso) never found it. I repair the mistake in my Wikipedia (Spanish) and I hope that you repair here. Art Fisher was a fake. Britzingen 02:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC).

7th Marx Brother

In all of the biograpies of them, They never mention a 7th. It could be there cousin Sam Marx, or a completely diffrent Marx Family all together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.119.225.61 (talk) 22:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

Groucho's comment on the MGM films

I think it's debatable about Groucho's positive remarks about the MGM films. I know he reportedly liked A Day at the Races the most---and I admit, it is hilarious---but during that time of his comment, the MGM films were actually considered the better of their films. Groucho's opinions of the pre-MGM films were notoriously fickle, only to revise his opinion upward when critics and fans began to reconsider the Paramount films. Could this be cited? -- Cinemaniac 18:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, such a source was found, but it's currently included at the Duck Soup article. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 02:34, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the Marxes disparaged those earlier films somewhat, just because they didn't bring in a lot of bucks at the time. Keep in mind they weren't just doing this work for art's sake. I recall something Harpo said about those early films, "At the time we made them, we had no idea we'd end up on the Late-Late Show." I would have to check out my copy of Harpo Speaks for that one. Also, in one of his books, I think Groucho commented about one of the Paramount pictures, "They've lined up another turkey for us." Again, something I would have to look for, unless it's on the internet, which it might be. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Preliminary indications are that he said it about Go West, which was probably not their best product. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Go West is obviously not their best product, although the opening scene with Groucho trying to con Chico and Harpo, and the wild climactic train scene, certainly are some of their best routines. — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 23:48, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Groucho also said this of A Night in Casablanca, arguably one of the better of their later films: "It's a lot better than The Big Store, but it'll never be another Night at the Opera." — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 23:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It's evident he regarded A Night at the Opera as one of their best, and it's hard to argue with that. It's probably the most polished film they did, if not necessarily the zaniest or pure-funniest. But it's an excellent film. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that it, along with A Day at the Races, was their most financially successful film to date. :) — Cinemaniac (talk • contribs) 03:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

To date? Are you expecting future films from them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.107.59.157 (talk) 18:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not, the digital arts being what they are? I think the reference was to the success of the existing films, which change over time as they bring in more or less revenue. Who knows, perhaps The Big Store will suddenly be hailed as a classic, and tons of dough will come in as film buffs rush to own copies of it. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 19:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Plattdeutsch

I'm extremely dubious about Minnie Schoenberg's first language being Plattdeutsch. Even though she came from a Plattdeutsch-speaking area, Jews weren't Plattdeutsch speakers as a community; in Northern Germany they spoke West Yiddish and later Standard German. I did some old-fashioned library research, and the only references to Plattdeutsch I found were in Harpo Speaks, in which Harpo claims that his father, not mother, spoke Plattdeutsch. This is certainly untrue, since Simon/Samuel Marrix/Marx was from Alsace. Harpo undoubtedly misused 'Plattdeustch' to mean 'a kind of German that isn't what they teach in school.' The question remains whether this was West Yiddish or Alsatian German. In any case, though, the claim that Minnie Schoenberg's native language was Plattdeutsch is both doubtful and unsubstantiated, so I'm getting rid of it, but I wanted to explain why. Bws2002 (talk) 01:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Such an obscure detail, with no substantiation, has to go. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:43, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

James Agee quote about Zeppo

Does anyone have a citation for the James Agee quote about Zeppo used in this article and in the Zeppo Marx? I just consulted 7 volumes from my library of quotation reference books, the ones most likely to have it, and none of them did -- and this included the Guiness Book of Poisonous Quotes and The Portable Curmudgeon. A Google search looks like it turns up a lot of hits, but when you control for the sites which are just copying the Wikipedia entries for the Marx Brothers and for Zeppo, you get basically nothing: 16 hits and none on point.

If no one turns up with a citation, it should probably be removed. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^(talk/cont) 04:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Even more telling, a Google Books search turns up nothing, with or without Agee included as a search term. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^(talk/cont) 04:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers priority assessment

Per debate and discussion re: assessment of the approximate 100 top priority articles of the project, this article has been included as a top priority article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 06:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Ahem no trivia

It's clearly stated that trivia sections are discouraged. I'm not sure how to post one of those "Please do something about this" thingys, so could someone do that? Thhhh (talk) 01:30, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no "trivia" -- i.e trivial and unimportant facts -- in this article. There are some miscellaneous facts -- i.e interesting and/or important facts -- which do not otherwise easily fit into the article. If you think one of those miscellaneous facts is trivial, then delete it, but otherwise, it's best not to but a "trivia" tag on the section, because it will likely be removed as not being warranted. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 01:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Gummo’s year of birth

His own article says he was born in 1893 and died at age 83. But here we’re saying he was born in 1892 and died at age 84. These absolutely MUST be consistent, even if they’re both wrong. Better that than to give out conflicting information as we’re currrently doing. Does anyone know the correct year? -- JackofOz (talk) 07:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Harpo's year of birth

This article says 1888; but Harpo's article says 1893. Which is it? GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

"Manfred Marx"?

What evidence can you cite for the alleged other brother's existence? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Find a Grave, Marxology, and I've seen references to him in other reputable sources. And no, I'm not the one who was editing to add Manfred to the page. Shsilver (talk) 02:04, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't figure you were. The IP needs to post the source if he cares about it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I've just updated it with a source and a quote from Simon Louvish's Monkey Business. Shsilver (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Groucho mentions the sixth brother in a Dick Cavett interview, but can clearly be heard saying that he lived to the age of four. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFAWdvloFlEw#t=06m42s —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.244.9.94 (talk) 22:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

" Origin of the stage names" discrepancies

"Four of the five" were supposedly named in a poker gamel, but then the origins of two names are controversial. "Sherlocko the Monk" vs "Knocko the Monk" 208.127.106.233 (talk) 00:33, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The name origin of Chico: On that tape from Carnegie Hall Groucho clearly states that Chico's name came from being a chicken chaser yes.. but it was because that was his job at the time. It has nothing to do with women at all. In fact during that whole discussion he's relating various jobs Chico had, nothing at all about women. Give a closer listen :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkwolfe 73 (talk • contribs) 18:09, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, on his Carnegie Hall performance Groucho states that he 'thinks' he may have been named after his uncle Julius, who his mother thought was rich. It turns out he was not of course but the family believed he was hiding a fortune until he died and thus, Groucho thinks he may have been named after him as his family's way of trying to get into the will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkwolfe 73 (talk • contribs) 18:18, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

That would be the Julius part, though, not the Groucho part. And Chico was originally Chick-o, and it was not a job, it was a hobby. As in chasing "chicks", a now fairly obsolete term for women. He was always known as a "ladies' man". I saw a youtube where an interviewer asked an older Chico if he still chased women, and he said, "Yes, I just can't catch them anymore!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's the transcript of his Carnegie Hall show:[5] He follows up the chicken comment with how they're called "birds" in England. That was what the Beatles and their group called women in the 60s. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

At the head of the page, there's a Disambiguation link to Brotherhood of St. Mark, known for centuries as the Marxbrüder. Although they were all brothers and their surname was Marx, they were not under any requirement to use The Marx Brothers as the name for their act. Do you think using this name is intended as a knowing pun on the name of these famous swordsmen?

Nuttyskin (talk) 01:40, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

/* Ownership status of films */ Citation needed

I inserted the "citation needed" into this section. Anyone can help me with a reliable source to this? Misibacsi (talk) 18:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

New article = Richard Smith (Silent film director)

New article, created, at Richard Smith (Silent film director). Additional assistance in research would be appreciated, feel free to help out at the article's talk page. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 16:33, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

File:Marx Brothers 1948.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Comedy style

No mention of the rather off color style of comedy? Many complained the Marx Brother Movies were not family friendly. I like the Marx Brothers (except for their off color material) but it needs to be mentioned.--71.228.186.13 (talk) 22:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)TheRebelSharpshooter

"Off color"? Compared to what? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't forget that many moviegoers complained that Marx Brothers were not family friendly. Some of their scenes contain questionable martial I.e. Harpo's ride on Duck Soup or any of his chasing scenes. I like the Mrax Brothers, but truth's the truth! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.186.13 (talk) 01:40, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Citation, please? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:03, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

usa postage stamp

"a new kind of Marx" 1990's — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.68.82 (talk) 16:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect date

Please double-check a cite which lists Minnie Marx's year of death as 1901 (much too early). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.216.130.195 (talk) 04:05, 25 March 2014 (UTC)