Talk:Margaret Mead/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Credible Source

I don't think a Slate op-ed is a suitable source for the definitive statements made at the end of the article about "Jewish mothers." Does anyone have a better source? - user:98.209.48.115 04:31, 17 June 2008

Deletion

It looks like someone simply deleted the entire section on this. This was immediately followed by another act of vandalism which was reverted, but the samoan deletion seems to have survived for about a month. I'm going to re-add it, but thought I'd leave a note here in case it was decided that the section shouldn't remain in the article. --Starwed 04:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Linkage to References Needed

As stated in other places on this talk page, the article is apparently well-researched but the supposed factual information is unreferenced save for a list at the end. So I added the unreferenced tag. I think it should be kept there for a while. --Merryjman

Coming of Age in Samoa: summary style

I would suggest that most of the text from the Coming of Age in Samoa section should be moved to the article for the book itself, with just a summary of the book and its controversies in the Margaret Mead article. This seems to be the convention for other author pages, where the book has its own page. (See for example Judith Rich Harris and The Nurture Assumption. Fionah 10:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that this article has any text from Coming of Age in Samoa unless you mean the short quote by Boas. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute, revisited

In general I found this to be an informative and very well written article but I question its neutrality mainly due to one phrase. I believe that the phrase that violates neutrality is, "...most published accounts of the debate have asserted that Freeman's critique is highly questionable.[16]". I do not believe that the sources cited can substantiate this assertion. I believe that this is a dismissive opinion in the guise of a factual statement. Claiming neutrality for this opinion based on the American Anthropological Association's assertion that Freeman's work is "poorly-written, unscientific, irresponsible, and misleading" is a circular argument, as the AAA is hardly a neutral party in this debate. This a bit akin to referencing the Pope to substantiate the factuality of the virgin birth. I agree that a link here to a more detailed account of Freeman's views in an article on him or on Samoa is necessary. Replacing this statement with such a link would be more appropriate to a neutral stance on the Meade/Freeman debate.--Johosophene (talk) 01:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I go as far as you do, but I could go along with some revised language. Can you suggest some specific language? (PS - I moved your cmt here, and then archived most of the old stuff, because I had a hell of a hard time finding it in the old 2006 stuff. The prior discussions are all still available in the archives for reference.) --Lquilter (talk) 02:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not buy Johosophene's comment. The AAA is the largest body of anthropologists in the world and therefore the best authority on what anthropologists think. I see no reason t assume any bias in Mead's favor: Freeman was an anthropologist too, and probably was a member of the AAA. Even if he was not, there is no reason to think most members of the AAA are in any sense "meadists," in fact, if you look through American Anthropologist. you will see that the bulk of articles published diverge very much from Mead's approach. The analogy to the poe is misleading - this is a debate between two anthropologists, not between an anthropologist and a non-anthropologist. In what way is the claim "published accounts of the debate have asserted that Freeman's critique is highly questionable" unsubstantiated? The article provides an extensive list of articles publsihed. It is a simple fact: most published articles support Mead or question Freeman. Sorry if you do not like it. We can include minority POVs but let's be accurate as to what is the manority POV and the minority POV. All that we need here is a link to the Freeman article, and a good Freeman article that fully accounts for his work. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Freeman's critique is given a few sentences. Criticism of Freeman's critique is three long paragraphs. That is definitely not neutrality. -Sensemaker

This is Mead's biography - it is appropriate to focus on her point of view. And SLRubenstein is completely correct about the AAA. Tvoz/talk 08:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your general thesis. The article on a certain person should not necessarily focus on his or her perspective and should definitely try to be neutral. The article on Gengis Khan is not mostly written from Gengis Khan's perspective. Even if I did agree with your thesis, you would still be wrong since criticism of Freeman's critique does not constitute Mead's point of view. She was dead by the time. Criticism of Freeman's critique can at most be considered the perspective of her followers. It is violates neutrality to blatantly overrepresent her followers perspective. -Sensemaker.

Sensemaker, I must not have explained myself well. The issue here is undue weight. Mead conducted research. MANY anthropologists have written about her research. Freeman was one person, and his views are expressed here. But there are a dozen or more anthropologists who have reanalyzed Mead's work. You think that because they disagree with Freeman, they are therefore "for" Mead. If we lived in a Manichan universe, perhaps this would be true. But when it comes to anthropology, there are seldom "two views" (for and against), there are usually many many views. People who disagree with freeman are not "taking Mead's side" (well, some do, but most do not) - they are presenting their own analysis. Thee is smething wrong with this article, but it is not about giving inadequate weight to Freeman. Given that his arguments are generally dismissed by his peers, his views are given the weight they deserve. But this article cites many other articles published in peer-reviewed journals about Mead and her research that present other analyses, and the analysis and arguments and views of the authors of those articles are NOT explained in any detail. That is the problem. i do not have the ime myself right now but i wish someone interested in Mead or anthropology would start reading those articles and providing NPOV accounts of their views. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:30, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"You think that because they disagree with Freeman, they are therefore "for" Mead. If we lived in a Manichan universe, perhaps this would be true. But when it comes to anthropology, there are seldom "two views" (for and against), there are usually many many views. People who disagree with freeman are not "taking Mead's side" (well, some do, but most do not) - they are presenting their own analysis. " That's a straw man, Rubenstein and an ad hominem (accusing my of black-and-white thinking). I definitely would not mind that other anthropologists view would be included, but in that case they should not just be presented as criticism of Freeman (and giving the impression that they support Mead) but as independent research. You could aslo ask yourself if this is controversy is not given undue weight given that the article is supposed to be about Mead. Perhaps it would be enough to just state that Freeman seriously questioned her research claiming that she had completely misunderstood Samoan culture, but that Freeman in his turn has also been seriosly questioned. He that wants to know more can look up the article on Samoan culture. -Sensemaker.

I am not sure I agree with you - but I do think this is a constructive suggestion. Can we see what others think? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:54, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

←Looking this over, after trying to rein in the excesses in the section, I reached the conclusion that the section was given undue weight for her biography. There is an article on the book itself with a section on Freeman's critique, there is the Derek Freeman article itself which goes into it, and there is the article on Samoan culture - maybe other places as well. But this is a biography of an individual who did more than write this book (although it certainly was an important part of her career), and all of the critiquing and surrounding disagreements and controversy came long after her death so more appropriately should be mentioned here and discussed elsewhere in greater depth. The inclusion of this major section is giving this controversy far more weight than is appropriate. To put it another way - it appears that all that Freeman is known for is his work on Mead- she is known for a great deal more. His bio can be weighted toward this subject because it seems to be his life work; her work went beyond that. IN fact I'd like to see her bio expanded to include more about other facets of her career and life. Tvoz/talk 21:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Well-put, and I think you did a good editing job, Slrubenstein | Talk 22:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - and thanks for finishing the job on the book article - I intended to do that and was called away, so glad you got that material in there. Tvoz/talk 23:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Margaret Mead And Remote Viewing

Of the many interests Margret Mead had, one of these interests was in Parapsychology and psychical research. In 1957, she co-founded an organization named The Parapsychological Association or "PA". It was created to give a better recognition of parapsychology professionals into the scientific community.

Her influence helped merge the acceptance of parapsychologist as fellow scientists. The direct or in-direct role in the study of what would be called "Remote Viewing" would give creadence in this field during "The Stargate Projects". Playing a role in the development of present day remote viewing was, Pioneer Remote Viewer, A. Edward Moch.

Fifty years after her co-founding of the "PA", it would re-recognize a number of "Forgotten Pioneers in Parapsychology". One of these forgotton pioneers during the late 1800's was Dr. Rufus Osgood Mason. His re-recognition would bring his writings on what would be termed as OOBE or "Early Remote Viewing", would be definately topical to the present day issues of remote viewing. It would be recently revealed that Margaret Mead was a distant cousin to Dr. Mason, but also to Moch as well.

Aedwardmoch (talk) 06:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)AedwardmochAedwardmoch (talk) 06:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Born into a family of Quakers?

The first sentence of Birth, early family life and education claims that Margaret Mead was born into a Quaker family. However, can the dead link be trusted? Mead herself says that her grandmother was a Methodist, but her mother was a Unitarian before she "gave up on religion" all together. She only says that she had neighbors who were Quakers whom her father would make anti-Quaker jokes toward. Consider revising and make sure to put Blackberry Winter: My Earlier Years (1972) as a source:

• Mead, Margaret (1972). Blackberry Winter: My Earlier Years. New York: William Morrow. pp. 76–77. ISBN 0-688-00051-7. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) -Ano-User (talk) 10:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead and make the change! Slrubenstein | Talk 11:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, will do. Ano-User (talk) 11:27, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Protection

I've protected the page to avoid more editwarring and incite discussion. I think we need a nuanced covering of the Mead-Freeman controversy. It is not the case that Freeman is generally seen as having rebutted or invalidated Mead's conclusions, but it is also not the case that Mead's scholarly reputation was undamaged by the critique (although it seems Freeman damaged his own as much). We need plenty of reliable third party sources to describe the controversy and its legacy in anthropology and Samoan ethnography in a neutral way. I suggest you start presenting your sources here in a calm and collected manner. Remember that Mead and Freeman's own writings are primary sources in relation to the controversy - we should use secondary sources for summarising the debate and its outcome.·Maunus·ƛ· 22:49, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

This book[1] argues that Freeman neglected the effect of the rapid social change that had occured between Mead's fieldwork and his own, and that there for his data is not directly comparable to Mead's or able to refute her conclusions. He argues that the change in sexual attitudes and the heightened difficulties of coming of age for Samoan youth is the result of an historical process beginning with the arrival of the missionary and taking momentum only in the 1940'es and 50'es. This is most close to the way I have heard anthropologists describe the controversy. This [2] is also a good review. This review[3] by several influential anthropologists, pretty much constituting the "mainstream" concludes that there is a consensus "that Freeman’s case against Mead is flawed in several fundamental ways, including how he has characterized Mead’s views on evolution and her place in the “Boasian paradigm,” as well as his popular claim that Mead was hoaxed into believing she had found a “free-love society.” In addition, we concur that Freeman has gone to great lengths to create a sensational story that is out of proportion with historical reality." This also fairly well echoes what is taught about the controversy at my university.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:23, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Another great review of the debate by Eleanor Leacock[4] arguing that they were both producing a stereotyped picture which have damaged Samoans, and that both ignored the history of Samoa in reproducing a static image of Samoan culture.·Maunus·ƛ· 23:57, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

One problem with Freeman's work is that he relied mostly on Coming of Age in Samoa which Mead wrote for the general public. She published a more detailed monograph for scholarly use that is wholely consistent with the argument in her popular book, and provides far more data to boot (and that certainly demonstrates her expertise in the culture). Freeman claims she was hoaxed, but the record shows that she was an experienced and serious researcher who was well-aware of the nuances of Samoan culture. Moreover, even in her popular book she (like Boas) states that human behavior is a result of a complex interaction between culture and nature. Freemen makes one argument, and then presents his argument in a different way - misrepresenting himself as much as he misrepresents mead. he says the "debate" (no debate since he published his critique after mead died) is over cultural determinism versus people who take nature as seriously as nurture. This is not the real difference between them. The real difference is, he believes that girls everywhere on earth experience adolescence as full of conflict and stress. Mead argues that girls experience it this way in some places but not all, Samoa being one example. The real debate is over monoculture versus cultural diversity. Freeman argues for monoculture, and Mead argues for cultural diversity. Anyway, thanks Maunus for bringing forward some more reliable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

"Derek Freeman, whose own research was on the Iban of Borneo"

As we all know, Freeman spent far more time than Mead in Samoa, including living with a Samoan family for 3 years before his Cambridge doctorate, learning Samoan, being formally adopted into the Samoan social hierarchy, returning for many more years, working as a professor at the university of Samoa, and being granted access to the Samoan national archives to research precisely the question under discussion here.

Mead, on the other hand, lived in the US naval station for 8 months, didn't learn Samoan, and surveyed a group of perhaps 100 Samoans.

So can we correct this little deception? Supershorts (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Slrubenstein wrote in an edit summary "Freeman's expertise was on Borneo". My question to him is whether he is ignorant or whether he is deliberately trying to mislead our readers? Supershorts (talk) 11:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

What was Freeman's dissertation on? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

It's truly disturbing that such a slimy, disingenguous troll [seeming POV pusher] is allowed free rein here without sanction and the apparent support of the administrative section. You [should] KNOW that Freeman was a far greater expert on Samoa, as he is universally described by the secondary sources. But you [appear to be] are looking for any tenuous excuse to belittle his authority because you are so transparently biased and dishonest. Yes, his dissertation was on Borneo, does that preclude him from being an expert in anything else? As you [should] KNOW, it doesn't. Boas' dissertation was on the color of water, should I write "Franz Boas, whose own research was on the color of water" everytime he is introduced in an anthropological dispute to discredit him? PLEASE STOP WASTING MY TIME WITH [WHAT APPEARS TO BE] LAME SOPHISTRY, [APPARENT] BIAS AND [APPARENT] DISHONESTY. Thank you. Supershorts (talk) 04:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I think you should proceed by presenting some sources that state that Freeman's Samoan expertise was far greater than Mead's - that is not the jist of the sources I found and presented above. ·Maunus·ƛ· 11:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

While it undoubtalby true that Freeman's Samoan expertise was far greater than Mead's, and despite your claims it would be easy to source that, the small change I have been trying to make, which is proving to be like pulling teeth, is simply that Freeman's relevant research was on Samoa. Do you dispute that? Where should I go to complain about you? Supershorts (talk) 12:12, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I think it is obvious that Freeman also did research on Samoa, and that one is not limited to do research in the area of one's doctoral dissertation. I think it is much less obvious that Freeman's expertise was "far greater" than Mead's and as I say the sources I have presented does not support that notion. Where you go to complain about me would depend about the issue with which you will be complaining.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:36, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

My complaint is that a change that you correctly identify as obvious is still not made because of the bias and special relationship which you and slrubenstein appear to have. If you make it this difficult to change something so obviously biased, I dread to think what it would be like to bring this article to neutrality. My complaint is therefore that in my opinion you are biased and using your administrative tools to promote that bias, a neutral party would have made the change instead of wasting my time here. It is unacceptable that a partisan vets every edit. Supershorts (talk) 12:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

You are very quick to call others biased and to allege COI for no good reason. I have removed the phrase about the Iban being Freeman's main research topic, as I agree with you that it is irrelevant. However you seemed also to argue the inclusion of a description of Freeman's expertise in comparison to Mead's and that is not warranted by the sources. I think a considerable part of your experience of editing being as "pulling teeth" can be ascribed to your own attitude which is unnecessarily confrontational (including editwarring, personal attacks and ranting). Other editors tend to respond to that in kind, and even if they don't they'll take you less seriously. Work on that attitude and I think you will have a better experience here. Now if you still have a complaint about my use of administrative tools you can complain at WP:ANI.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:08, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It is not at all clear to me that Freeman conducted more ethnographic research on Samoan culture than Mead. But to my knowledge, during his academic career he published a couple of articles based on archeological research in Samoa. I know that Freeman wrote about Mead after he retired from Academic life. I fully agree that one's expertise is not limited to one's doctoral dissertation. But the very point of a doctoral dissertation is this: that scholarly knowledge is not the casual knowledge of everyday experience, it is the product of an appropriate methodology directed to answering academic questions. The fact that I have fallen down does not qualify me to claim expertise on gravity. Freeman was a school teacher on Samoa - does this mean that all school teachers are qualified to write anthropological studies? Are the US soldiers who were stationed on Samoa qualified to write anthropological studies? The point of a doctoral dissertation is to demonstrate how careful research produces academic knowledge. Most anthropologiss believe that Mead's work on Samoa - not exemplified by the Coming of Age book written for a popular audience, but by her scholarly Social Organization of Manu'a, does meet the standards of careful anthropological research. Freeman has a relatively short article on Samoan kinship published in American Anthropologist in 1963 or 1964 or thereabouts - certainly a respectable publication, and a sign of valdi research. But I just do not see a record of publication while an active scholar i.e. before he retired in 1982, on Samoa. It was after he retired that he wrote two books on Margaret Mead and created a second career, largely for a popular audience. I think this discussion really risks bing anachronistic. There is no doubt that Freeman is today best known for his writings on Mead, even if they show the same preference for obnoxious bullying over calm and thoughtful reflection of facts shown by Supershorts. But during his academic career. freeman was best known for his work on the Iban. Beofre the 1983 book came out, he was known for his expertise on Borneo. The comment should be put back in, because anthropologists' expertise is based on where they have conducted their ethnographic fieldwork and published on in academic journals and it is important contextual information that Freeman was not known for his expertise on Samoa. To claim that it was, based on material he wrote after he retired, is anachronistic and misleading. When his book on Mead came out in 1983, anthropologists read it as a book written by an expert on Borneo, not an expert on contemporary Samoa - at most, his expertise was on Samoan archeology and ethnohistory, these being the topics he published on. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:31, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

If we really want to provide a full context for the seemingly intellectual debate over cultural versus biological determinism, we should probably provide an account of Derek Freeman's psychological breakdown when in 1961 he visited Saarawak island and ended up accusing the local museum curator of using local statues to exert mind control over the local government in furtherance of a Communist plot. He broke into a museum and destroyed one of the statues and was kicked out. This led to his forced removal from the island, and four psychiatric evaluations that led the administrators at ANU to request he take leave for mental illness, but he refused.

This is more than mere gossip because it was immediately following this incident that Freeman renounced social determinism - the approach he had used in analyzing behavior 9in the Malinowskian tradition in which he was trained (Malinowski was famous for arguing that Freud's Oedipal complex is not a universal but cultural and not ound in Melanesia where social structure is different than in Europe) - and began researching psychology and biology. Ironically, one person he turned to for help in this new intellectual turn was margaret Mead, because many of the Boasians enderwent psychoanalysis prior to conducting fieldwork because they believed that psychology could influence behavior as much as culture. When Freeman visited Mead, she asked if he could read a thesis on Samoa he had written as a graduate student. When she later asked why he did not bring it to her house, he replied "Because I was afraid that you might ask me to stay the night." Surely a Freudian slip. Later he said that "She could cast a spell ... she was a mesmerizer" and later, "Mead was a known castratot; she went for men and put the down." These are published in an interview between Freeman and Sydney journalist Nikki Barrowclough, and recorded by Hiram Caton, a professor at a university in Brisbane. The point is, not long after a mental breakdown in Sarawak Island, Freeman developed some kind of psychological complex involving Mead, and this was about two decades before he published his book portraying her as a naive woman. I mean, if we really want to provide adequate coverage of this conflict between Freeman and Mead, why not provide all the relevant facts? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Freeman published at least three articles on Samoan kinship in the 1960'es two of them a scholarly exchange with Marshall Sahlins - in addition to his archeological and ethnohistorical articles. I do not think that there is basis for making a statement limiting him to being a scholar of Borneo It doesn't serve as anything other than a veiled attempt to discredit him outright - an ad hominem argument. The debate should be evaluated by the statements made regarding the arguments of both scholars and their respective merits in secondary sources. If secondary sources comment on Freeman's personal relationship with Mead then we can include that too.·Maunus·ƛ· 21:56, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

"Hiram Caton", the AIDS denialist? This is your reliable source? Supershorts (talk) 20:13, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

And your source that his writings on Freeman are unreliable are ... are ... where? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:27, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Shankman specifically mentions that Caton's studies of Freeman's records are a valuable resource.·Maunus·ƛ· 21:56, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I am absolutely appalled at the biased pro-Mead writings on the Margaret Mead page. I mean, Mead's views were extensively debunked by Freeman et al, so that it's only extreme leftwing anthropologists who defend her views. There should at least be a fair appraisal of Freeman's views, not a hatchet-job.The irony is that Freeman did not have the courage to openly call Mead a fraud, and came up with a different "excuse" for her, so is hardly the most vehement anti-Mead critic out there, given that many others have used terms like "fraud" to describe her work". I will have to add a caution at the beginning of the article.Loki0115 (talk) 16:34, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I think you are right that the article could do a better job at describing Freeman's criticisms, and the kinds of evidence he used. This should be based in the newest assessments of the debate such as Shankman and Orans. You are however incorrect in your assessments about the status of the controversy and that there are any particular political implications. Also the notion of "fraud" is completely off the mark and nobody, not even Freeman accused Mead of that.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:07, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's not true. Fraud re Margaret Mead has been repeatedly mentioned. I will have to look at this article a bit more and add appropriate refs etc.Loki0115 (talk) 08:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You would certainly need to provide some very good references for that.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 10:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

This seems to be a rather excessively pro-mead acount of the debate. Although I think everyone seems to be getting a bit carried away on both sides. Mead's issues arise in the conclusions she made from the data. Much of what she said about american life was biased towards views of american life that she liked and largely unsupported by the data from Somoa. Freemans accounts arrived sometime later, at which time I am sure Somoan life and culture had evolved and comparability is suspect on that account regardless of the other issues involved in the debate. The article is overall too pro-Mead and repetatively damning to Freeman which is just unnecessary. What might be more interesting is something about how the debate caused anthropology to re-assess itself and its methods in the face of such critism against its subjectivity and openness to interpretation from pre-existing researcher prejudices. That is what Freeman highlights in his critisms although it seems to have been lost in the personal slagging match. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.30.241.133 (talk) 17:53, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

This is a biography of Margaret Mead, not an article about Derek Freeman's criticism. There are other places in the encyclopedia where there is more detail on his point of view, like his own bio and the piece on Coming of Age in Samoa. Going more into his views in Mead's bio give them way too much weight here. Her life and career have considerably more significance than as a foil for Freeman's largely discounted point of view. Tvoz/talk 08:05, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why the fact that this is a biography means that any mention of the significant criticism that Mead's work has received isn't relevant. I looked at the pages for B.F. Skinner, Sigmund Freud, and Ayn Rand for comparison and all of them have significant discussion of criticism of their ideas on the bio page. I agree with the people who say the current page reads more like hagiography rather than biography. BTW, I have no agenda against Mead, I think she had a very positive influence on American culture and on anthropology. Prior to her work the field was dominated with people who often had very racist and pro-colonial pseudoscientific ideas about cultures and race. Mead performed a valuable service to move us beyond that. But her reputation doesn't require that we scrub the historical record, we should discuss her warts and all and I think its essentially irrefutable that she was significantly wrong about the Samoans. She said they don't have rape and they do. She said they don't prize virginity when they have a virginity test often performed by the husband, etc. I plan to add a small criticism section to highlight this and quote people like Derek Freman and Steven Pinker. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 22:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

NPOV? Opposing viewpoints?

this reads like a hagiography. Mead had plenty of political opponents, academic opponents and so forth. There are plenty of people who deem her legacy to be one of unmitigated disaster, corruption of morals, academic falsehood etc. I wonder why is that not reflected here :) 76.24.104.52 (talk) 22:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree. Isnt she even known as a straight out liar in academic circles? Nothing in this article reflects any criticism. - MB

No in academic circles she is considered one of the most important scientists of the 20th century. Of course ask creationists and they will tell you that Darwin's legacy is one of unmitigated disaster, corruption of morals, academic falsehood etc.Slrubenstein | Talk 23:06, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It depends of course what academic circles we are talking about. Boasians worship her almost like a God. Unfortunately this article is a bit one-sided. My understanding has always been that Mead and her "research work" is pretty much a fraud. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.63.59.235 (talk) 18:12, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, she's part of the Columbia university Boas anti white civilization fraud cult, just like this sleazebag turd slrubenstein —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.116.162.109 (talk) 13:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Watch your step here - see WP:NPA and be civil, or go away. Tvoz/talk 19:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, well, I seem to have struck a nerve! Someone is peeing in her pants, so scared that their "white civilization" is crumbling around them that anyone who questions their faith povokes this kind of reply. Go ahead and spew your insults. All you prove is that Nazis or BNPers or however you "white civilization" people are calling yourselves these days are (1) really afraid of something and (2) you either have the intellectual ability of a 9 year old or maybe you really are just a nine year old. Go back to your playground and call people you do not like "turds." In the meantime, the grown-ups have an encyclopedia to write. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:10, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

No, it's not my faith. It has nothing to do with my political beliefs. The work of Boas and Mead is fraud. It is demonstrable and obvious. The sad thing is that you know it. You really are the turd in the water pipe. Supershorts (talk) 13:27, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Just a turd in a water pipe? Yup, Not the reasoned discourse of an intelligent person, just the whining of someone who can't stand scientific research. The web is filled with nutters like you. People thought Coepernicus and Darwin were obvious frauds also. SO what else is new? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:27, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

You are a biased Columbia grad with a COI. Copernicus and Darwin were verified. Mead was shown to be fraudulent, reporting back to Boas what he wanted to hear based on scant data. Take your bias elsewhere, this a public information service, not a place to big up your "homies". Stop trying to censor real scholarship. Freeman is the preeminient expert on Samoa. I have read his books. Mead is a charlatan, anybody who has read her work can see the transparent fiction. I have all relevant works. Supershorts (talk) 21:40, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Freeman was the charlatan, and his views are accepted only by people with some ideological bias against science. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, and Darwin was a fraud too. Yeah, I have heard it all before! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Darwin isn't considered a fraud by mainstream academia. Do you personally agree with Boas' contention that the human cranium is highly plastic? Supershorts (talk) 06:52, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Boas demonstrated that the human cranium is plastic to a quantifiable degree - don't use weasel words like "highly," he provided numbers. And all mainstram scintists accept them. mainstreal academia does not consider Boas a fraud. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, considering that the human cranium isn't plastic, I guess any fraudulent quantity classifies as "highly". So what was Boas' quantity? Supershorts (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

This is not the appropriate place for a discussion about the value of Mead and Boas to scholarship - they are well-established and well-accepted, and unless you have some constructive, properly sourced suggestions to make about improving this article, and can do it in a civil manner, take your spewing to the blogs and away from here. Tvoz/talk 19:57, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Wrong. This is exactly the place. As the opener of this thread states, this reads like a hagiography. Tvoz states "they are well-established and well-accepted". This is certainly the case among those who make the most noise, as we can see from the same users again and again defending and pushing the same minority position, but is it really "well-accepted". Can reliable sources be presented to that effect? Supershorts (talk) 19:43, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you start by telling us which is the irst sentence in th articl that does not conform to one of our three core content policies NPOV, V or NOR? Or, which paragraph does not conform to one of these policies? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:50, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It's more a case of omission, namely Derek Freeman's far more detailed study which flatly contradicts all of Mead's most "revolutionary" findings on Samoa. And please spare me the "most anthropologists have made vague criticisms of Freeman". Supershorts (talk) 16:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Vague? The article cites a large number of articles on the Mead-Freeman controversy. Not vague at all. Numerous and precise citations. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I added NPOV tag to Coming of Age in Samoa section (although the whole article could probably use it). I'm not personally familiar with much of Mead's or her detractors work, but I do recognize weasel wording and overt bias when I read it. philip72 | Talk 15:23, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

No, this is a biography of one of the pre-eminent scholars of the 20th century. There is plenty of criticism in there, but this is not an article on Derek Freeman or his point of view. We include it, but the expansive discussion of it is appropriately found in the article on Coming of Age in Samoa and his bio. Biographies by definition are biased toward the subject, and this one is no more so than others. I'm removing the tag which I am sure was placed in good faith, but as someone who is familiar with her work and that of her detractors, I utterly disagree that this section is biased. Tvoz/talk 08:14, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Role in cybernetics

One suggestion for expansion: The article doesn't yet mention her role in cybernetics, which is usually considered to be significant. Among other things, she was one of the core participants in the Macy conferences, and an early commentator on reflexive (or second-order) cybernetics. --Delirium (talk) 21:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

She was indeed, but I know of no evidence that she made any real contributions to the field. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:00, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

No, her husband Gregory Bateson was the important one of the two in that regards.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:23, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Robert Redfield on Mead

Robert Redfield had always been critical of Mead on the basis that she had never been fully fluent in the Samoan language. However, in reviewing her Monograph "Social Organization of Manu'a" he found that she had corrected some of the earlier questionable assertions in Coming of Age. This and other arguments can be found in the book The Trashing of Margaret Mead by Paul Shankman.Euonyman (talk) 16:04, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

was the first person to have a spock baby

she had a daughter that was token care of by benjimann spock she was told that she could not have children but after many time she had catherine mead

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.159.154.109 (talk) 13:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Any source verifying this? Slrubenstein | Talk 13:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[out] Yes, this is more or less correct: she was not his first baby, but it was early in his career, before he wrote his book. I added this to article with appropriate citation. Tvoz |talk 09:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, Margaret Mead's interest in good parenting seems to have been almost entirely academic. Her daughter Catherine Bateson has written of her severe loneliness as a child, because her mother often left her with indifferent caregivers. Younggoldchip (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss Mead's parenting skills, just how to improve the article. Tvoz/talk 08:55, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Catherine states in an interview that she is extreamly greatful to the way her mother raised her because it helped to shape her into the person she is today. She only ever has positive things to say about her mother's parenting skills. Also, M.Mead made home videos documenting every early develepmental stage of her daughter as she grew up. She was, in my opinion a great mother and very nurturing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.155.141.9 (talk) 20:35, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Unsigned, it's obvious that numerous videos taken by the parent to "document every early developmental stage" are not the same as a warm, personally involved, caring relationship with the actual child. Any scientist can take videos. And inspite of your own (again, unsigned) opinion about Margaret Mead as "a great mother," the facts were clearly set out in Catherine's autobiography: she was often farmed out to her mother's friends, often felt isolated and afraid. Later contacts with her father were frightening, as his mental deterioration progressed. Catherine has taken the high road in her memoir, when possible, but she has also been honest. A picture emerges of a child who was emotionally neglected by a parent who was obsessed, above all, with her career. And those are the facts. Younggoldchip (talk) 14:47, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to second the user who pointed out that Margaret Mead's parenting skills are not relevant to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NomvulaWakaBani (talk • contribs) 13:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe Mead's parenting skills are relevant because they contribute to a fuller understanding of a complex woman. Also, she frequently discussed and wrote about parenting in societies which she studied. Younggoldchip (talk) 17:40, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

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WWII Britain

There is nothing here considering the importance of her work in WWII Britain.

In particular it would be nice to see a reference to the booklet: "The American troops and the British community" by Margaret Mead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kenif (talk • contribs) 01:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Category:LGBT Anglicans

Could Category:LGBT Christians be replaced with Category:LGBT Anglicans? Thanks, 142.160.131.202 (talk) 19:28, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Done: Minor edit only, and appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 00:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Kuyabribri! 142.160.131.202 (talk) 05:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Criticism of alleged hoax?

In his new book "The Trashing of Margaret Mead -- How Derek Freeman Fooled us all on an Alleged Hoax" Paul Shankman says there was not enough evidence to conclude Mead had been mislead, and it appears this has been questioned for a few years now. Maybe this should be mentioned in the Coming of Age in Samoa section, if Derek Freeman's allegations are. http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/09-12-16#feature -- This is an excerpt from the book 87.121.162.27 (talk) 08:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a confusing section in the article. That "there was not enough evidence to conclude Mead had been misled" is very different from saying that she wasn't, or that her research was correct. The upshot is that by the time someone else looked at Samoan culture, everything was different from Mead's version, and to back her up we have to say that she was right in the first place and then everything changed. It all hangs by a hair. But Ockam's Razor says that Freeman may well be right and Mead was just too credulous. MikeR613 (talk) 01:58, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Apparently the girls in Samoa were just telling her a bunch of stories which she reported without any verification and based her academic career on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.0.164.57 (talk) 05:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not have it, but Shankman's book has been uniersally well-reviewed and if anyone has access it would be a most valuable source. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:04, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems only people who have a biased, overly optimistic opinion about Mead have been allowed to contribute to this article. The first paragraph itself is testimony to this. Why is a 'Neutrality disputed' message not displayed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.103.144 (talk) 20:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you that this article has been written by those with rose-colored glasses, however I do not know enough of the subject to revise. Do you have suggested changes to bring this page to reality? Ckruschke (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

The Samoan incident has been referred to by popular authors like Dawkins and Pinker. They agree with Freeman that Mead may have been informed by unreliable sources. All this is not mentioned in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.97.137 (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Ok. However, what we are looking for is suggested changes which means what "edits" to the current text would you make. Suggested edits would go a long way to actually making changes to the page. Simply throwing out a "this is something that's wrong / missing" isn't very helpful because first we'd have to find the correct area to insert info on this and then we'd have to devise a correction / addition. Not implying you do all the work, but you seem like you know the subject. Ckruschke (talk) 17:15, 20 March 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

There have been a number of authors criticize Mead for her work in Samoa. The criticism should be referred to in the article.203.184.41.226 (talk) 21:54, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

It is.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:25, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

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Publications by Mead as a sole author

This section appears to omit the following publication...Social Organization of Manua (1930). Mead, Margaret. Social Organization of Manua (1930) Bernice P. Bishop Museum, Honolulu, Hawaii. No ISBN, but online version (OCLC)604495315. and there is a copy on my bookshelf --Freckster (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2018 (UTC) Social Oganization of Manua ISBN 9780910240086 --Freckster (talk) 00:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Carl Sagan, Margaret Mead, and the theory that some cultures don't know that sex causes babies

• At least according to my possibly faulty memory, once upon a time, probably in either Broca's Brain or in Cosmos (as these are the two books of Sagan's that I can remember reading), Carl Sagan criticized an allegedly naive Western young female anthropologist (whom my possibly mistaken memory tells me was Mead) for supposedly creating (or helping to create) the myth (or alleged myth) that some cultures supposedly don't know (either thru never discovering, or thru somehow unlearning) that babies are caused by sex. Sagan claimed the female wrote that she had told a male local on some Pacific island that sex was caused by babies, and the man had replied that was impossible, pointing to a woman who had given birth recently despite her husband being away for 3 years. Sagan added that if a young woman had said the same to him he might also have been tempted to pull her leg with a story about the birds and the bees.

• (On the other hand, incidentally, I was related to a now-deceased psychiatrist who once briefly argued that there are many possible 'benefits' (such as free love, etc) for a society that chooses to unlearn the idea that sex causes babies - and I also note that until recently the cost of any such unlearning might have been especially low in a Pacific island where isolation means free love is less likely to lead to sexually transmitted diseases (something which also supposedly applied until recently to the alleged culture of sexual hospitality among at least some Inuit, who as a result are now reportedly plagued by sexually transmitted diseases in the less isolated modern world) - but, unfortunately or otherwise, per WP:NOTFORUM, I am not here to discuss this idea, but to discuss ways of improving this article).

• However I don't have a copy of Cosmos, and a quick perusal of the index of Broca's Brain didn't get me any quick confirmation of this story, and neither did perhaps an hour of Google searches. So, per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY and WP:BNO, I've decided to give up on the search myself. But if some other editor(s) can find Reliable Source confirmation of this story, it might well be able to be used to improve this article (or possibly some other article, if the allegedly naive female turns out to be somebody other than Mead).

• Tlhslobus (talk) 08:33, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Oops - it seems my memory was partly at fault. The "naive female" was in fact the male Bronislaw Malinowski in the Trobriand Islands - it's in the last 2 pages (pages 79-80 in my edition) of Chapter 6 (White Dwarfs and Little Green Men) of Carl Sagan's Broca's Brain. Sorry about that. Tlhslobus (talk) 23:35, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

I've now added a sentence about this in our Malinowski article.Tlhslobus (talk) 00:25, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Seems like an irrelevant piece of trivia to me. I also don't know why we should believe Sagan, a non-anthropologist who never visited the Trobriands, over Malinowski who did.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:30, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

My recollection is that Sagan didn't endorse the proposition that the primitives hadn't figured out the connection between sex and reproduction. What I remember him saying is that, if representatives from that culture told an anthropologist such a thing, they were quite possibly pulling the Foreigner's leg, considering it absurd to ask if they know the connection when everyone knows where babies come from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.220.11 (talk) 02:52, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Verification of cite re Attenborough's view

As I was curious to see what Sir David thought, checked this Swahili source. If Google translate is to be believed, it does not mention either Mead or Attenborough - nor Coming of Age in Samoa. Here is the (very poor) translation:

Inom psykologin

Stora tänkare 58:18

Genomic inspirations from the 1930s and for the first time were a day in which there was a great connection between psychiatrists and conservatives and those who were very active. Have you ever been asked to sign up for a free account? Sigmund Freud, a psychologist who specializes in psychologist Carl Jung, as well as Stanley Milgram analogy as a result of a broad-based approach to the Yale i början in the 1960s. We are also looking at the controversial British psychiatrist R.D. Laing flarklara hur begreppet sinnessjukdom tillskrivs individuals individually as integer up to sahällets krav.

While it's a bit gibberish, it's still clear it has nothing to say about the relevant material. Sorry I was unable to find a replacement source for this statement, for all I think it is likely correct, but I will look some more. 49.177.61.250 (talk) 09:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

References