Talk:Marcela Pérez de Cuéllar/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 20:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Reserving. I'm fairly busy during the week these days, so if I don't finish Sunday it might take a little longer. —Kusma (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for picking her up Kusma. No worries about timing. Just ping me when you're done and I'll try to address everything. SusunW (talk) 21:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Content and prose review

• Early life, education, and family: All of them except Temple chose to study abroad this is hard to understand, as all of them were called "Temple" and it isn't clear who you are referring to without the meta-knowledge that it probably is the article subject. Better "all but Marcela".

•  Done SusunW (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• but he died in an accident one month later not sure we need the contrast of the "but". "who died in an accident" would suffice?

•  Done SusunW (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• After his death, she married Guillermo Ganoza Vargas are you trying to say she remarried very soon?

• Don't really have a clue when she married Ganoza. Changed it to say "She later married". SusunW (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• preserving marinera as a national dance of Peru. Is this "preserving marinera, a national dance of Peru" or "preserving marinera through recognition as national dance of Peru"?

• Don't really know how to answer that, but I think it's the second one? Both sources say he "revived" or caused the dance to be "revalued" by creating a contest that went from being regional to national and then international. This says the dance went out of fashion after the War of the Pacific and was revived in the 1960s. It is unclear to me if the decree of recognition issued in 1969 was for the dance or the competition? This says the dance "is the (my emphasis) national dance of Peru". Your thoughts? SusunW (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

@SusunW, I think it is fine if you maybe add a short mention of the es:Concurso Nacional de Marinera. There is quite a lot at es:Guillermo Ganoza Vargas. —Kusma (talk) 22:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Okay, done. SusunW (talk) 22:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Temple de Ganoza so in Peru, names are added with "de"? A note on names and Peruvian naming customs could be helpful, as "Perez de Cuellar" seems to be one name, and "Temple de Ganoza" two names.

• Spanish naming customs are pretty straight forward. A child carries paternal-maternal combination surname, with the father's name as "the" surname. Women do not lose their names upon marriage but become "handmaidens", i.e. Ofjoseph, Offred, Ofmathias by appending the husband's name. If the surname is common, Sánchez, Álvarez, Pérez, prominent families often use an ancestral compound surname from which they descend as part of their paternal-maternal combination name. So for her, Temple de Ganoza indicates she is Ofguillermo, whereas Pérez de Cuéllar indicates that Javier came from important people, not just any Pérez family. I am not sure how I am supposed to explain all of that without it being OR, but each of those scenarios is described in our article Spanish naming customs, which is largely unsourced. After a lot of research, I finally found sources which explain all of those scenarios, so give me a minute. SusunW (talk) 16:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Okay, I think I hit everything in a note, but if I missed something, let me know. SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. You have two different spellings of Pérez (with and without accent) in your note now. My surprise at the "de" was that most Spanish people I know just use the two names without any decorative "de" in front of the husband's name, or connect the two names with "y". My favourite is when both names are the same, like "Garcia Garcia" for a common example. —Kusma (talk) 19:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Fixed the accent. In Latin America in my experience the "y" (and) is only used now when one has a double-double compound surname so something like Ana María Sánchez de Luminario y Pérez de Rodríguez. It used to be more common, but lie the whole compound surname down here indicates social class. The great majority of married women I know here don't use the husband's surname at all. SusunW (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Anything to say about her children? A random Google gave me someone who is probably her son denying an association with Jeffrey Epstein...

• Ick, but no, I didn't find anything that would constitute sig cov for any of them, although admittedly I didn't spend a lot of time searching. SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• First lady of the United Nations (1982–1991): In 1987, Pérez de Cuéllar; Jacqueline Jackson,[13] US peace activist and writer;[14] Miriam Makeba,[13] South African musician and civil rights activist;[15] Sally Mugabe, First Lady of Zimbabwe; Maria Eugénia Neto, former First Lady of Angola; and Dabanga dos Santos,[13] a Mozambican attaché to the United Nations,[16] formed a foundation called the Children's Fund for Southern Africa (CHISA). I do not like the semicolons here at all, with the long list at the start before we know what it is about. Maybe two sentences? ("Together with others, PdC established a foundation ... . Her co-founders were Miriam Makeba, Sally Mugabe, ...")

• In a compound list wherein the parts of a sentence contain phrases offset by commas, it is proper form to offset the listed items by semicolons. I don't make the grammar rules in English, just try to follow them, with only some success. I've flipped the text as you suggested but kept the commas and semicolons. SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• What is a "mothers' brigade"?

• Pretty generic term for a group of mothers who band together to provide protective services for kids.[1],[2],[3] . I suppose I could call them mother's support groups, but that to me makes it seem as if the mothers are getting rather than providing help. SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Who is "Princess Françoise Lobkowicz"? She only seems to have fantasy titles, so maybe introduce why she is notable?

• That to me seems weird, unless I also explain the notability of Bhutto and Bush. Her title doesn't make her notable, it is her relief work that did. The La Stampa article doesn't list why the awardees were given the award, but most of them were known activists for various causes at the time. Besides which, IMO, she is linked so if someone is interested in her they can just go to her page. SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I am allergic to princes and princesses from republican countries, but I will just treat "Princess" as part of her name (as it would be under, say, German law). —Kusma (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I am allergic to titles in general. That whole "I am better than you because I was born to somebody who was somebody" is pretty ridiculous, IMO. SusunW (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Death and legacy: A collection of folk art, she had acquired over the years, was donated to the Canadian Museum of Civilization in 1990. this would be easier to read without the commas.

•  Done SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• There is generally a slight abundance of punctuation. Are all of the commas and semicolons really necessary?

• I find WP articles are often written without sufficient use of commas and semicolons. SusunW (talk) 18:09, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

A nice article, I didn't find much to complain about. Let's see what I think after looking at sources :) —Kusma (talk) 11:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

General comments and GA criteria

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• Images: fine.
• No major prose issues, see above for comments.
• Sources: almost everything looks ok, but the whole Francisco Antonio de Zela Hurtado is entirely primary-sourced. I would suggest to omit him (moving the results of your research to the talk page) if he occurs in zero secondary sources. The Pasion por la Libertad source seems to have contradicting information about the marriage to Ganoza?

• There is nothing remotely wrong with using primary sources recorded by officials to document events in a person's life. In this particular case, I learned of the 1st marriage because someone had appended a note about the marriage in the margin of her birth record. No original research was done and it seems highly unlikely that it would have been recorded fraudulently or with an intent to mislead. If one had access to historic newspapers in Peru one might even discover what the accident was or find a marriage announcement. I do not have access to those. I specifically did not list when she married Ganoza because I don't have a definitive source, which is verifiable with corroborating sources (my preference would definitely be an official recording in primary records). Given the lack of access to historic newspapers and the fact that she might have wed him as Temple Seminario, Temple de Zela Hurtado, de Zela Hurtado, viuda de Zela Hurtado (Widow of), vda de Zela Hurtado (ditto), I tried but was unsuccessful in finding definitive evidence. SusunW (talk) 18:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  @SusunW, it is fine to document events in a person's life using official primary sources if these events are also known from non-primary sources. What I object to here is using the official primary sources to find a connection that is not made in any other sources. I am wondering whether the family wanted to never mention this marriage again? Is it really up to us to dig out something personal like this? In this case, it is particularly interesting because the husband was a notable basketball player, it:Francisco de Zela. Here is something about his death (plane crash, he was the pilot?). I find it weird that nobody has remarked on this, and I'm not convinced we should be the first to make this connection. But this is not a BLP, so I won't insist. —Kusma (talk) 19:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

• Now see, that makes the whole first marriage even more interesting! I wish I could see your source and it makes it even more plausible that there are sources out there if one had access to them. What's weird is from the tiny bit I can see your source says he was Alférez Francisco de Zela Hurtado, but the death certificate clearly says Francisco Antonio. This says he was an official of the Peruvian Air Force p. 180. In this case, since the marriage was part of the birth certificate, I see it no differently than having multiple facts included in a newspaper article. It isn't as if I found a birth certificate and then connected it to a marriage record I found independently and assumed they were related. The marriage event is written on the birth certificate. For the record, I am not the first to make the connection, whoever wrote that note on the birth certificate, which is public record was. Thanks for not insisting, I think it is an important part of her history. SusunW (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

  @SusunW, see Alférez, it is a rank or title, not a name. Given that the other Francisco Antonio de Zela is much more notable, it is nontrivial to find Marcela's first husband. Back in the 1950s, it makes total sense that the Peruvian national basketball team has someone from the Air Force in it; this is before professionalism became the norm in sports everywhere. —Kusma (talk) 09:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Spotchecks passed.

@SusunW, I think that's everything I have to say (surprisingly little this time!) —Kusma (talk) 15:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Kusma, I've tried to answer everything. A few queries in the answers above are outstanding. SusunW (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Kusma I think we're done except for how to treat the dance issue. SusunW (talk) 20:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.