Talk:Maku Khanate

name

After I had created this article, I realised it probably needs to be renamed to Maku Khanate or Khanate of Maku, but I was not sure which is most appropriate, or whether another name would be better. I don't mind what it is called. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

One cite for "Khanate of Maku" is: Miron Rezun (1981). The Soviet Union and Iran. p. 82. ISBN 9028626212. which says

The Maku area, situation in the vicinity of Mount Ararat, lies in Iranian territory, but it owes its origins to what in Reza Shah's time was still properly called the Khanate of Maku, a strategically placed Kurdish community nestling between Sharur-Daralagez and Nakhichevan.

However that is in a footnote, and I havent found a copy of the cited book. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 09:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

• Kangarli Khanate doesn't generate even 5 hits on Google books or Google scholar. The two cited sources are unreliable and non-academic, Andrew Burke's book, seems to be a travel guide, not a reliable source on history, and worldstatesmen. org is a random webpage, which does not pass WP:RS.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

As I said, this is obviously not the best name.

I used this name because I was trying to figure out the naming issue over on Talk:Khanate_of_Nakhichevan#Kangarli, Kangarlu and Kangarly, and this was the name used on Kangarli.

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:09, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Kangarlu and Maku were not the same . Kangarlu was the tribe in Nakhjavan , but the Khan of Maku was from Donbuli tribe.The Kankarlo clan was a branch of Donbuli tribe that was originally Kurdish , but little by little they became Turkic language and their mean place was Khoi and Maku . Anyway , it is not clear to call the Maku khans as Kangarlu , or the Kangarlu of Nakhjavan as Donbuli (lake of reliable source) --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining why this name is wrong. Can we keep this article if it is renamed? What is a better name for the "18-19th century khanate based in Maku"? John Vandenberg ^(chat) 11:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well,I think generating an article based on reliable sources is more important than publishing our guess.I did searched for Kangarlu کنگرلو in Persian sources , but the outcome was not so clear . In Tehran province , namely in Varamin , there are many clans and family names of "Kangarlu" , and they remember a lose historical connection with Iravan and Nakhjavan Khanate . But anyway , the problem of Wikipedia is in that after publishing in web , that will be a source by itself ! and the real history may remain in clouds .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

As an other example , the correct name of Murtada Kuli Khan Ikhal al-Saltana is Morteza Quli Khan Eghbal al Saltaneh (Sardar-e Maku) , but the sources - at least in English- does not give a clear view . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The name is transcribed from the source I used. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I have renamed it to correct my mistake. If you want to rename it again, that is OK with me. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 12:24, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

quotes

In David McDowall (2004). A modern history of the Kurds. p. 71. ISBN 1850434166.:

He [the Khan of Maku] levies troops necessary for defence of the frontier... The Persian Government has always considered the Khans of Maku as the valuable guardians of its frontiers. This, in the twentieth century, and in one of the Provinces most submissive to the royal administration, Azerbijan, we see this khanate enjoy all the prerogatives of feudalism.

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

For Swietochowski , in page 2 , it says nothing about independence only says:

Most of the principalities were organized as khanates , small replicas of Persian monarchy , including Karabagh, Sheki ,..... and tabriz, Urumi, Ardabil , Khoi , Maku ....in its southern part

--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree it doesnt mention how independent it was; Swietochowski does give a better description of the khanates. The Andrew Burke work mentions semi-independence, but if you dispute that it was semi-independent, then please do remove that. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Maku County

I wonder if Maku County is the natural successor of the lands of the Khanate of Maku. Does it cover the same region? If so, should the information about the khanate be moved into article about the modern region? John Vandenberg ^(chat) 10:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it a discussion ?

[1]

Is it a debate about notability or reliability? I thought there would be a debate and consensus and etc . Anyway, the Cambridge History of Iran,uses the name in footnote.The question is if the sources are enough? Are the sources directly talk about the entity or is it just simple side note ? Is a webpage reliable enough for the article to be based on ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 19:10, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

{{prod}} is not a discussion, and is only supposed to be used where the deletion isnt controversial. We can discuss it here, or you can take it to WP:AFD.

I believe this article is notable and factual, except for the name which was a mistake that I knew about. I am willing to put a lot of effort into fixing any problem that you see. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 07:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)