Talk:Lucid dream/Archive 1

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And WILD stands for...

It seems to me WILD is more commonly understood as "Wake-Initiated Lucid Dream" rather than "waking induction of lucid dreaming" Perhaps someone could check this and change accordingly?--Pyg 05:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Zoz (t) 18:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Don Juan's technique works!

A few days ago, I read about this technique in Bruce Moen's Voyages Into the Unknown. I tried that first night and it worked! True, the dream was more of a nightmarish agony: wandering throughout an old dark deserted house, full of trash, rags, rats and strange looking animals... But I was able to walk through walls and to fly. Quite impressive.Orlando F 21:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Lucid dreaming prior to out-of-body experience and also dream yoga episode

Some 25 years ago, my first and only fully conscious OBE was preceded by an extremely lucid dream, while taking a nap. In the dream I saw two people fighting, one of them dying. Then I thought: "What if I died too?" Immediatly, I saw darkness and I couldn't move. I felt a strong, electric-like vibration taking over my body. I then felt my consciousness being pulled out of the body, enveloped in a white energetic-vibratory shape. I saw the room exactly as it was: my brother was typing near-by at his desk and he couldn't hear my screaming his name. The pull was tremendous and I realized I may well be about to die. "It's too soon!", I thought and with all my strength tried to regain my body. Meanwhile, I heard what might be described as "astral music", very subtle sounds, wave upon wave of them. Also, when I looked at a shabby indian ink print hanging in the wall I saw a powerful vibrating abstract mass of reddish colors superimposing it! I then thought "I can fly..." and immediatly I passed through my brother's body as if he didn't exist. I was about to exit the doorway, but fear was stronger than curiosity and after much effort I managed to re-enter the physical body. Once in the body I was completely paralised and the only way to get out of that state was to move my head sideways. I was back to life, feeling cold and a bit sick. I told my brother what happened and went out for a walk. A lost opportunity, never to be repeated again.

A few years later, while practicing meditation, I used to have lucid dreams, among them a very powerful one in which I felt myself travelling at high-speed through a "tunel" (worm-hole?) and exiting to a foggy forest. I watched from the rear what looked like a uge ruminant animal. It was bovine-like, awesome, with long hair, like a mammoth. There was something mythological to it. Another time, I saw myself practicing asana (yogic postures) while dreaming. Orlando F 21:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

LUCID DREAMING EXPERIMENTS

1. I choose the topic because it is one of the few areas of parapsychology that has been supported by scientific evidence. Stephen LaBerge, a popular author and experimenter on the subject, has defined Lucid dreaming as "dreaming while knowing that you are dreaming. The ability to consciously control ones dreams is extremely interesting. If people are able to consciously control their dreams then they would be able to literally create the wish fulfillment described by Freud. Lucid dreaming is an important part of Gnostic belief and is a suggested method of the occult practice of astral projection.

2. Hypothesis: it is possible to be conscious of being in a dream state during REM sleep.

3. Method: Test a population of people who claim the ability to sleep lucidly. For this experiment it is not necessary that the population be random because the purpose of the experiment is to determine whether or not lucid dreaming is possible.

Scientific studies have shown that during sleep the eyes move to track dream objects, assuming this is true it would be possible to have people in lucid sleep use their eyes to send signals to the researchers.

For the first few weeks of the experiment the subjects would be able to sleep normally to establish a base line. During this time the REM sleep would be analyzed particularity movement of the eyes. Subjects would be asked to report on their dreams as soon as they woke up each morning. The ability to have dream recall is an important step towards lucid dreaming because it helps lead the person in to a lucid stage and will be necessary in later stages of research. There are certain dream signs that alert a person that he is dreaming, the subjects would be instructed to attempt to find those signals over the next few weeks. Once subjects reported that they were conscious of when they were dreaming the next stage of the experiment would begin. The subjects would be asked to move their eyes in such a manner as to alert the researchers that they had entered the lucid stage. The people in a lucid dream state would be conscious of what actions they are taking. In one experiment with researchers Morton Schatzman and Peter Fenwick, in London, it was shown that actions taken in dreams created small muscle movements. If eye and muscle movements made during lucid dreaming matched what the subjects were asked to do it would suggest that there is factual basis behind lucid dreaming. --Gary123 00:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC) 1.I choose the topic because it intrests me 2. Hypothesis: it is possible to dream and be aware of dream satte 3.Method: Test a population have them demonstrate lucidity during Rem sleep. Population: Different levels of american society

--207.156.196.242 19:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Though a bit old now, this is a solid reference book about lucid dreaming:

Lucid Dreaming: The Paradox of Consciousness During Sleep

Should perhaps be added to the literature list

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Should wipe away some doubts:

http://www.stanford.edu/~mgoldens/lab/psyphy_lucidity.html

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OK - I'm a bit of a campaigner against Pseudoscience in the Wikipedia. But I won't argue with valid scientific resarch, if it exists.

If there is "no scientific doubt" as to the existence of lucid dreaming, please put in some web links to some published articles validating the research and claims. Currently your links are only to un-referenced names. Otherwise your claims will come under some intense heat around here. - ManningBartlett

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Much of the earlier info on lucid dreaming in the literature has been discredited. I think the phenomenon exists as an occasional and idiosyncratic experience (like deja vu), but is of little practical importance.

Whoops - well we need to back up here. I still don't like the tone of the article, it IS a bit airy-fairy but Stephen Laberge is legitimate. Here is an academic paper published in a neurophysiology journal I am professionally aware of. {http://www.asdreams.org/journal/articles/laberge5-3.htm]. Seems like there IS scientific justification after all. ManningBartlett

LET THE RECORD SHOW - that I will back down when given due evidence. I've now seen two research papers from academic journals. I've even put a dissociating note about lucid dreaming in the pseudoscience article. - MB

• Entry on lucid dreaming in the Skeptic's Dictionary, links: http://www.skepdic.com/lucdream.html

I cut the link to the above because after reading it, we are in danger of showing bias by citing it as a proper reference in this case. The SkepDic entry does not dispute any of the findings (aprt from quoting a 1959 paper which the later papers invalidate), it only criticises the fact that LaBerge has made a lucrative cottage industry out of his research.

This commercial activity does not change the validity of the research, and hence is irrelevant. To report this means that we need to start questioning the commercially-related activities of all scientific research, eg. drugs, etc, which will dig us into a DEEP hole.

Just because lucid dreaming is associated with the new age movement, doesn't meaning we can dismiss it. There are at least 2 articles in known and respected neurophysiology journals (I read Dreaming during my med school days), and hence it meets ALL the critieria for valid scientific research and evidence. - MB

So let's note all that with the Skepdic link.

This occurred to me, actually. What do we do with people like Carlos Castaneda, Terence McKenna, John Mack, or, some would argue Andew Weil, who have some sort of respectable academic background, but then veered into questionable territory? Presumably note the facts on both sides.

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How can lucid dreaming be an explanation of alien abductions? Isn't knowing that you're dreaming one of the main characteristics of lucid dreaming? If you know you're dreaming, how can you think that you've really been abducted by aliens? --Zundark, 2001 Oct 16

According to the linked article, it's not technically lucid dreaming, but another phenomenon that is related to it--dreaming that you've woken up--that can be used as an explanation. This should be explained more clearly.

I have changed this statement to better reflect what the external link says. Exabyte (talk) 02:30, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

I'm guessing that it's probably because the dream state is so intensely real, that the dreamer refuses to acknowledge that the events did not happen in reality. It's certainly a lot more plausible that actually being abducted by aliens. It's only a theory (as noted).

I recall reading that some phenomenae that seem to mix dreaming and waking may be related to a sleeping disorder where the sleep paralysis mechanism that sets perception and cognitive motor control to "dream-mode", in a way "leaks". This may lead, for example, into hallucinations involving non-real (dream) entities appearing in the real (waking) bedroom at the time when the person is falling asleep or person experiencing physical paralysis and helplessness. This sounds much like something abduction stories coould be made of.

Lucidity might also then be a wrong phenomenon to blame. I'm afraid I don't have more exact terms or references at hand, but I thought I'd mention this. --blades 23:52, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

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In many alien abduction stories, the abductee claims to have been sleeping, then have woken up and been abducted. After the abduction, this person supposedly awakens in bed as if nothing happened. Most likely, the person dreamed that they woke up, then and dreamed they were abducted. --Aesir

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I dream lucidly on a regular basis. I'm as far from New Age-ish as one can get and still be permitted to live in California (ha ha). I must confess that I never knew that this was rare or controversial. --Jimbo Wales

I also dream lucidly regularly, and I did not know the topic was so controversial. I think it exists because i know it exists. Reading about all this extreme skeptisism has fascinated me in a way - almost makes me glad i dont live in salem. Makes me think of all the things i dont think exist but someone else says they do. Hmm. deanos

Well, the obvious question is, do you actually have free will in the dream, or do you merely dream that you have free will? Of course, you've really got to question whether that'd be any different from real life. Sockatume 11:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

But you could say that about real life - do you have free will, or do you just think you do? And lucid dreaming isn't about free will anyway, it's about being aware that you are dreaming (indeed I'd say I often have free will in normal dreams, but the difference is I don't know that it's a dream). Mdwh 22:42, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

How could you possibly have free will without being aware of yourself? --Zoz 17:55, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say I wasn't aware of myself. A lucid dream is about being aware that you are dreaming, not "being aware of yourself". Non-lucid dreams aren't just ones where you are a passive observer, but are often ones where you are taking part in the events yourself - but it's the fact that you're not aware of it being a dream that means it's non-lucid. "Free will" has nothing to do with it being a lucid dream or not, and is a philosophical question we could ask of real life just as much as dreaming. Mdwh 00:54, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

This isn't really going to further the article at present (because I don't know of any references offhand that might help provide insight into this phenomenon... and it might not even be relevant in the main article) but the "do you think you have free will, or do you actually?" thing is especially interesting in lucid dreaming... as a "LDer" myself, though not one who is THAT experienced in it/actively pursuing it, I've noticed a few things myself that have been corroborated by others: I have had dreams where I 'knew I was dreaming' but had little, sometimes no, conscious control over what was happening. The dreams that I would consider 'lucid dreams' felt significantly different, and gave me a much greater degree of control, albeit with a whole new set of difficulties. I'm going to putz around the 'net and see if any of the 'research' that has been done on LDing notes this phenomenon, and what they make of it. I think it's quite possible that this could be compared to a lot of other human phenomena: once somebody becomes aware of LDing as a concept, it may be possible that this information is assimilated in some normal dreams, and it 'tricks' them into thinking they're having a "lucid dream" when they technically may not. This would probably account for the "low level" and "high level" lucid states that many people mention. If I find anything about this that may not merit inclusion in the article, I'll throw a mention of it here. Hopefully, there's some research done in this realm. 68.77.129.136 05:55, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

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I don't understand how this issue is controversial at all. Why does it matter if it's science or pseudoscience? It exists. -- Lament

Lucid dreaming is neither. It is a natural phenomenon or a feature of one. That one being dreaming, itself a feature of sleep. Study of it can be science if conducted right. And that is, indeed, being done. --blades 18:03, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

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I have had a handful of lucid dreams in my life (my first wasn't until I was over 25). In my most extreme case, I even did an experiment: I thought to myself, if this is a dream, I should be able to morph something (in this case a fishtank) and I successfully morphed it from a retangular to spherical fishtank. The other occcasions were sexual dreams (lucky me). I am not hippie and I am very skeptical. But this phenomena is real. -- Jason Quinn

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I also lucid dream regularly (but it's not something I can induce or that I tried to induce). The sexual thing is a recurring theme for me, as even non sexual dreams frequently end up becoming sexual. What would a psichologist think of this?

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I removed this quote from the end of the first section: "If I wanted, I could visit the Shaolin Temple of ancient China (while within a lucid dream state). I could have a Shaolin monk lay his hands upon my dream body, surging all of the knowledge surrounding Kung Fu into my brain-- the philosophies and the techniques. When I awaken, I will be just as good or perhaps even better than any serious student of the martial arts who has practiced for decades even though prior to my lucid dream, I had no previous knowledge of Kung Fu."

I'll let someone else decide whether it merits inclusion, but it needs to be attributed if it is to be put back in. (It's obvious from context who must have said it, but where? Is it taken from some publication?) Aranel 16:23, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sounds dubious to me. I've had Matrix-themed lucid dreams, for example. In these I generally have awesome kung-fu skills, although I never remember actual "moves", just the act of performing furious punch-blocks. When I awake, I'm just as pathetically incapable at punching in a straight line as when I went to bed. I mean, the proposed monk would just be a dream character, a facet of the dreamer's own mind, like everyone else. There's no reason to believe that it'd have any knowledge the real individual lacks. Thinks like muscle memory and muscle tone take time to develop, too, and require physical activity.

While I'm on the subject of crazy Matrix-related stuff, I'm considering putting the common lucid dreaming experience of flight into the phenomena list (should it be mentioned that many individuals use lucid dreaming for sex as well (what would Freud say about that, I wonder?)). The former is commonplace enough in my experience to warrant an entry, methinks. After all, it does have "maximum awesomeness" (although dream-based bullet-time is somewhat groovier).Sockatume 22:14, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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I've removed the following paragraph as I couldn't find any reference on the web to this Mr. Kidney. I suspect it's a joke. Please restore this if I'm wrong. --LeeHunter 01:08, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

One author of many religious and occultic articles, Lord Grant Jarac Kidney VIII once described lucid dreaming as "The gateway to the heavens". Kidney has even gone as far as to stating that human beings have the potential to materialize objects of any sort via lucid dreaming into their waking reality. Kidney also claims that one has the ability to completely alter their physical appearance through intense visualization whilst experiencing a lucid dream state. Though little scientific proof has been offered by Kidney, many followers of Grant have reported to edit their physical bodies to the extent of gaining a perfect, physically fit body overningt. In most cases, this would take years of hard work, dieting, and exercise in order to become physically fit. Kidney stresses that lucid dreaming is the best way to gain knowledge of any sort from the past, present, or future.

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"while using a WILD technique to enter a lucid dream" Could someone explain or expand this please? Shantavira 18:55, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Apparently an acronym for "Wake-Initiation of Lucid Dreams": [1] --Jim Henry 22:20, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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"Scientific research in the 1950's found that these eye movements correspond to the direction in which the dreamer is "looking" in his/her dreamscape; extraordinarily, this apparently enabled trained lucid dreamers to communicate the content of their dreams as they were happening to researchers by using eye movement signals."

I wrote the above bit but I am not certain this research was first done in the 1950's or much later. Certainly research like this has taken place much more recently (since the 1980's), however I recall when I read Norman Malcolm's 1959 book Dreaming some years ago that it made reference to recent (i.e. 1950's) research of this kind. But I may be mistaken. If anyone knows better, please correct. Ben Finn 21:35, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

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"Lucid dreaming" a misnomer? I've added this as it pops up quite often – perhaps Frederik van Eeden misunderstood the meaning of "lucid" in English. Also I found quite a few references stating that Frederik van Eeden was a psychiatrist. --Bruce1ee (Talk) 08:54, 16 May 2005 (UTC) -- I am intrigued by lucid dreaming, yet afraid of it. I worry about people "abusing" the ability to experience anything they want to. What if a pedophile or serial killer starts lucid dreaming? Of course, purposefully dreaming about performing heinous acts is preferable to doing them in real life, but the thought of it turns my stomach. I realize that lucid dreaming can seem more real than reality, so that even the notion that lucid dreaming might induce people to try things in real life is not what worries me. And I am not worried about myself doing anything I'd consider immoral. Probably I would just fly or stand up for myself. But just the idea that it seems real and yet is so...unregulated frightens me.

I've never come upon this fear, though I have, over the years, perused sites about lucid dreaming many times.

Any comments would be appreciated! 66.28.244.66 18:03, 13 February 2006 (UTC)Lisa

I don't see anything to be afraid of in lucid dreaming. I'm no more concerned about what someone might do in a lucid dream than what they might do in a non-lucid dream or what they might think about while awake.

I find that lucid dreams don't feel more real than non-lucid dreams. In fact when I am having a lucid dream, it often seems less real, as I am more able to notice strangeness and inconsistencies. What I am actually paying attention to can seem real, but other things are often quite strange. Usually, I don't notice the strangeness until I wake up. I think of the mind in a dream like an overworked stagehand trying to set up for an improvised show. It can't get everything right.

Often, my moments of lucidity don't last, I forget that I am dreaming, and the dream becomes non-lucid.--RLent 20:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Psychosomatics of lucid dreaming

I am a regular Lucid Dreamer, and an occasional victim of night terrors, and I was wondering if there is any evidence supporting the psychosomatic tendencies of some lucid dreamers. I know for a fact that I will be dreaming Lucidly, and I may hurt my self in the dream and when I finally actually awake the injures are sustained in reality. I know some may think this is an effect of false awakening, but if that is so then I’ve been continually dream for the past 19 years, as I’ve never had a false awakening. If there is any evidence of this out there, I think it would make an interesting addition to the article.

Iorek 16:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Iorek, I'm very interested to hear your story. I'm also a lucid dreamer, and if what you say is true then I'll be doing experiments on that very soon here.--Krevency 07:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ive had very vivd lucid dreams where i was beaten severly, i awoke and had sustained a broken arm, and my body was buised all over. My docter didnt belife that it had happend to me in a dream, and a criminal investigation against my parents followed. No evidence was found the the investigation ended, rulling that i suffered from phsycosomaitic issues as well as mild parinoid shizophrenia.Iorek

I'm sorry: I don't follow the meaning of this second sentence:

>>There are thought to be some insights into the workings of the brain that can be found by lucid dreaming. In particular, in surveying the experiences of lucid dreams, many have noticed that the brain, at least while in dreaming, has the feature whereby it is possible for a single individual thought, memory, definition, belief, etc. to be incorrect while the rest of the mind appears to be working normally. This is contrary to normal experience of brain malfunctions, which are usually more general, such as wholesale memory loss, or broad emotional imbalance.

"...the brain... has the feature whereby it is possible for a single ...thought, memory, definition, belief... to be incorrect while the rest of the mind appears to be working..."? That's kinda clunky. What does "incorrect" mean in this context? How is a memory incorrect? Or a definition? What is "working normally"? Where/when nothing is "incorrect"? Or a belief? My beliefs are frequently incorrect, and I'm living a mostly non-psychotic life.

[Jobygax, ,May 11, 2006]]

As there are no sources provided and the section is indeed ambigious I guess we should move the whole paragraph here for consideration:

There are thought to be some insights into the workings of the brain that can be found by lucid dreaming. In particular, in surveying the experiences of lucid dreams, many have noticed that the brain, at least while in dreaming, has the feature whereby it is possible for a single individual thought, memory, definition, belief, etc. to be incorrect while the rest of the mind appears to be working normally.

This is contrary to normal experience of brain malfunctions, which are usually more general, such as wholesale memory loss, or broad emotional imbalance. It is helpful to propose a construct of consciousness that is more on a continuum and that certain functions (such as reflective awareness) might be selectively activated. This is a fluid process, moment to moment, in the context of the lucid dream, and it is experienced as discontinuities.

--Zoz (t) 14:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

About "Dreaming about knowing you're dreaming"

Wow. I didn't seriously think people were still skeptical about lucid dreaming.

I'd like to answer anyone's question about, "How do you know you're not just dreaming about being lucid?"

Firstly, I have had a couple of dreams I can remember where I was just dreaming about lucid dreaming. That was a little strange, but it's only happened a couple of times.

Normally, in a lucid dream, I go, "Oh, I'm dreaming. What was it that I was planning on doing next time I had a lucid dream?" During this time I can remember my previous waking day. I can remember waking life as well as I can right now, in fact.

I mean, if you want to say that someone was just dreaming lucidity during a dream, you might as well question your awareness right now. I'm only as confident that I've had hundreds of lucid dreams as I am confident that I've had thousands of awake days.

I mean, where does the skepticism end? --Krevency 07:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've only ever had two lucid dreams that I can think of, and even those were only partially lucid moments. I don't think I've ever quite had a lucid dream by the strictest of definitions - as in, I've had dreams where I realize that I'm just dreaming, but I've never been able to control. I have, on occassion, forced myself to wake up, which has always resulted in a terrible headache. On two other occassions, however, in the course of nightmares, I have become at least partially aware of my control of the situation - if not entirely aware that it was all "just a dream" - and was able to basically refuse to "die" in the dream after someone / something shot or stabbed me. It was a strange experience, I remember waking up and feeling like I had somehow "cheated," like I was playing a game but was only able to win because I had done something illegally. Anyway, my dumb hang ups aside, having had those experiences I can completely see how someone else can actually have an entirely lucid dream.

-Lucid Dreaming is very real indeed. I experience Lucid Dreams commonly, without even trying. I stumble upon that I actually am in a dream. While I'm in my dream, I think to myself; "Hey...this all seems so fake..aha! I'm dreaming!" then I think to myself:"so...let's do something cool..." the only good thing I like doing is flying, and jumping up really high, and doing matrix-style on-the-walls moves! It's pretty fun.

--Codell 26 July 2005

-Yeah, lucid dreams are pretty kickass. I've only had two before. I can remember the second one much, but in the first ijust flew around like most people who've had one do.

Moronic question I must ask

A lot of times when people dream, they are unable to control their own actions, as if they were playing a part in a movie or play going through whatever actions or saying whatever things the dream requires to get from point A to point B. Recently I had one such dream, in which I was merely "going through the motions" and unable to control anything I said or did, yet I was fully aware that I was having a dream. Likewise, the people in the dream understood they were not the real-life people they appeared to be, but that they were merely part of the dream. At one point, one of them even said to me something to the effect of, "too bad this isn't a lucid dream, or you could ask me anything you wanted".

The only actually lucid moment was when I was finally able to muster the will power to say "f*ck this" -- at which point the dream immediately ended, and a new, "regular" dream began, in which neither I nor anyone else was aware that it was a dream.

Is there a word for this kind of experience? --Corvun 05:59, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

These types of dreams are very interesting. But, I'm sorry, as far as I know there is no word for this kind of experience, though some have called them "semi-lucid." To illustrate, you said you were "fully" aware that you were having a dream, but it seems more likely that you were only fully aware that what you were seeing was a dream, and not fully aware that it was yours. I have not written what I think about this in the article, because then it would be original work, but your experience illustrates the multi-faceted role awareness plays in lucidity. For instance, there are times when I have been aware that I was dreaming and had a great deal of control, but somehow I was not fully aware of the extent to that it was true, probably due to my eventual philosophical musings on what dreams actually are. I hope that I have helped answer your question and that you continue to contribute to this very neglected and mishandled science. --Slac 05:07, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes and thank you.

Actually I was "made" aware of the fact that it was my dream, not just through contextual clues such as the lucid dream remark by one of the characters, but through direct statements from other characters as well. Almost as if the dream were about informing me of the fact that I was dreaming. Throughout the experience, I recall the overwhelming feeling that "something", some part of my mind that for whatever reason was acting "on its own", was encouraging me, or trying to give me an easy opportunity, to begin a lucid dream experience, but that I had not yet learned how to do so and was therefore unable to take control. Of course I had an interest in lucid dreaming before this and, before going to sleep that night, was attempting to will myself into having a particular type of dream that I would remember upon awakening. I intrepreted the dream to be some sort of subconscious recognition of the fact that my conscious mind was attempting to impose itself upon it, as if my subconscious were re-asserting its control over itself and daring my conscious mind to try and do something about it. Obviously this kind of internal-conflict was not at all disturbing, as my subconscious is just as much "me" as my conscious, and not some nefarious outside entity (meaning that one of me was in control the whole time) -- but it was very, very confusing.

Just thinking about all of the philosophical implications dreams like this might potentially have (for anyone but the strict materialist, that is) is mind-boggling. I can actually see why skeptics might shy away from the subject and why it's so neglected. Lucid and semi-lucid dreaming is a very interesting thing to speculate on from a philosophical point of view, and must be a very attractive field of research to parapsychologists, ranging anywhere from the down-to-earth, to the highly philosophical, to the religious of any and all natures, to the down-right nutty. Though, that's no excuse for ignoring it altogether. --Corvun 07:30, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Needs more details

I was looking at lucid dreaming and I know that there are medicine and food that contain a certain chemical that helps enable lucid dreaming. I know that one of the foods that has the chemical that helps enable lucid dreaming is corn.

Actually, I think that foods and things that tell you they help enable lucid dreaming are stretching the truth a little bit. Many of these things only give you more Vivid and intense dreams. Granted, these vivid dreams are usually a little easier to recognize as being dreams, but people turn to lucid dreaming aids as if they'll help you get lucid, without realizing that all they do is make your dreams more vivid. It still takes a large bit of responsibility by the dreamer to Recognize that what is going on around them is just a dream.

Prometheuspan 23:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC) Kava Kava, amongst other Entheogens, can produce a situation in which sleeping Beta conditions arise far more easilly.

Question about the definition

The current definition reads "Lucid dreaming is the act of consciously perceiving and recognizing that one is dreaming while such experience befalls one during sleep, enabling a more cogent ("lucid") control over the content and quality of the experience."

I feel the definition needs to include the control over the [dream] content part more proeminently, and not just as a "result" of recognizing that one is dreaming, since I feel that a state where you dream while you recognize that you're dreaming doesn't necessarily lead to control over content; also, when you know you're dreaming but do not control the dream does not qualify as lucid dreaming IMHO. Please note that I'm no expert on the topic, so I might be wrong -- but even if I am wrong, and a dream you're aware of but don't control qualifies for lucid dreaming, the definition still needs a change to include that situation as well.

I'd like to explain what I mean with the "control" part. Personally, I occasionally find myself in very discomforting situations while dreaming; at that point, I do an internal reality check. While that usually fails (I don't realize I'm dreaming), on occasion it succeeds -- and the dream typically ends. I wouldn't qualify that as lucid dreaming. (On the very rare occasions when I both recognize that I'm dreaming and the dream doesn't end as a result, I usually do take control of it -- only those rare events qualify as lucid dreaming in my opinion.)

I'm aware this raises a point quite similar to the section entitled #Moronic question I must ask, but it's a completely independent point I wanted to make when I read the article -- I only realized it's similar to something which was already said while previewing my edit.

On a side note, I think lucid dreams are immoral (nudge-nudge). --Gutza ^{T T+} 23:27, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

There is a great deal of literature on lucid dreaming (most of it isn't very good... but there is a lot, nonetheless). If you are worried about the definition, there is no reason why multiple definitions cannot be included side by side, if it is the case that multiple definitions are used. Also, the definition is lacking in other ways. For instance, the term was coined by Frederick van Eden, which the article does not mention. You're a Sysop on Romanian Wikipedia so I shouldn't have to tell you to be bold in editing pages! :) --Slac 16:44, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Statistics?

The first headline is "Achieving and recognizing lucid dreams" at this moment. Sort of in medias res, I think. Perhaps firstly the article should give some basic statistics about lucid dreaming such as (estimated) percentage of population who have had lucid dreams in their life / who has lucid dreams regularly, estimated chance for a person who has had at least one lucid dream in his or her life to become lucid that night etc. (Sadly, I couldn't find any reliable source for statistics like this yet.) --Zoz 00:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Questionable Scholarship

The first page of this entry overemphasizes the importance and of LeBarge and the vocabulary of his institute which has (had?) an address in Stanford California. His profile has been high in pop-culture, especially when Omni Magazine was being published, however, aside from his Ph.D. thesis under the brilliant William Dement, he has offered little that was not already available from other sources.

Wasn't he the first to demonstrate the existence of LD with scientific evidence, reflected from the predetermined eye movements of his subjects during REM sleep? I understand there is some constroversy whether or not another experimenter did it first. For this reason, though, isn't he called "the father of the lucid dreaming?" I would appreciate if you elaborated on your statement, and I'm sure it would be a great benefit to Wikipedia if you contributed! --Slac 18:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[RESPONSE] Yes: LaBerge, Nagel, L., Dement, W., & Zarcone Jr, V. (1981). Lucid dreaming verified by volitional communication during rem sleep. Perceptual and Motor Skills, 52, 727-732. Groundbreaking work was done by: Berger, Hans (1930). About the Human Electroencephalogram. _Journal of Psychological Neurology_ 40:160-79. See also: Dement and Kleitman, Nathaniel (1957) The Relation of Eye Movements during Sleep to Dream Activity. _Journal of Experimental Psychology_ 53:339-46. I still believe that he clearly did not "invent" lucid dreaming and that this article is in need of including a balanced history of lucid dreaming as a concept and a popular term. How can he fairly be the "father" if Tibetan dream yoga has been continuously practiced for 100's of years and Frederik Willems Van Eeden published the term "lucid dreaming" with over 300 examples in 1913? [END OF RESPONSE]

Awareness during sleep was known to many cultures since it occurs spontaneously to many children. The Tibetans, for example, have writings about it in their Book of the Dead. Celia Green, author of the 1968, Lucid Dreams, should be credited with popularizing the term. The correct spelling of his name is LaBerge and the lucidity institute's current web site does not give an address. He offers 9.5-day seminars in Hawaii for $2,400. Overall, now he seems more like a typical new-age author/lecturer/retreater. LaBerge should be credited for his experiment as a student in which eye-moments were used by a sleeper to signal others while the sleeper continued to sleep. One of his advisors at that time was William Dement, M.D., Ph.D., who has had an impressive career as a professor at Stanford and author of many books on sleep and dreaming. Dement is a pioneer in sleep research and medicine and current Chairman of the National Commission on Sleep Disorders Research. 01:12, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Control section

I've uncommented the previously commented out Control section that Paulhart2 kindly elaborated on. I'm not sure, however, if "Control" is the correct title for the section. --Bruce1ee 06:42, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I renamed and rewrote the Control section under "Ability". See my comment in the article. --Zoz 17:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

State prior to the dream

This phenomenon is real. I find it easiest when I'm tired, or after I've already slept, am interrupted, and go back to sleep, and am interrupted again with a new outlook. Sometimes, in the dream, I don't feel like I'm asleep, but almost as if I'm still awake, and it's like a hallucination. I suspect intense/unusual emotion prior to sleep may encourage it, I also suspect some sort of external stimuli may "guide" the dream, either initially (at the onset of the dream) or ongoing. It is still a rare gift to achieve this, for me. njaard 17:37, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Some comments from a colleague of Celia Green

There are a number of misconceptions in the article, and in the discussion, which I should like to correct. Before making article edits, I give my comments here for feedback.

1) The term "parapsychology" is best reserved for the study of phenomena which appear inexplicable by reference to current knowledge or theories, e.g. ESP or PK. The idea of being aware one is dreaming does not fall into this category.

2) The term "pseudoscience" should refer to the way a subject is studied, not the subject matter itself. Ufology may be a pseudoscience, but UFOs should be described as a putative phenomenon, which may or may not exist.

3) There doesn't seem much reason to regard the existence of lucid dreams as controversial. What there is some dispute about is how significant they are as a topic for research, and how different they are from ordinary dreams. Green and most other lucid dream researchers argue they are very different in terms of cognitive and general psychological quality.

4) Phenomena like lucid dreams and out-of-body experiences (OBEs) used to be thought of as linked to ESP, PK etc. It should be realised by now (even if it still often isn't) that there is no necessary link at all. Both LDs and OBEs may be regarded as quasi-perceptual or hallucinatory experiences. The question of whether, on occasion, as is sometimes claimed, they involve elements of ESP or PK is a quite separate issue.

5) The fact that not much research is done by universities on lucid dreaming does not necessarily imply the phenomenon is not important. It may rather reflect a prejudice, based partly on the original association between lucid dreams and parapsychology.

6) As with OBEs, it is extremely unhelpful to perpetuate the reflex association between quasi-perceptual phenomena and the paranormal. While one does not necessarily have to dismiss possibilities like ESP, or the idea that there is a soul which might somehow have a physical location and might somehow be able to "travel", it would be better if articles about LDs or OBEs did not give a substantial amount of space to these secondary issues. Imagine if the same were done for ordinary dreams - i.e. most articles or discussions referred to their importance as carriers for paranormal activity - the study of (ordinary) dreaming would suffer from a similar stigma, and serious researchers would tend to avoid it, thus delaying progress in understanding. As it is, any discussion of OBEs, for example, gets bogged down in the paranormal issue. "Believers" are enthusiastic supporters of the phenomenon, and insist it provides evidence for life after death; "skeptics" want to dismiss OBEs, reject them, or give a reductionist explanation. Meanwhile, their significance for understanding normal perceptual and cognitive processes is completely missed. Even those who research lucid dreams scientifically tend to focus on the more "exciting" aspects - e.g. ability to control, ability to communicate from the dream - and ignore more fundamental issues like, how is the brain able to generate a completely convincing hallucination of a physical environment?

7) Control is not a crucial or defining characteristic of lucid dreams. Contrary to popular opinion, controlling the content of one's dream while lucid tends to be difficult and highly imperfect. Many popular books (which seem to be based on telling their readers what they want to hear) are misleading on this issue, and facts seem to get mixed up with fantasy and wishful thinking, rather as in Castaneda's books. For a more sober assessment of the control aspect, see Green and McCreery (1994). The phrase "enabling a more cogent (lucid) control" is both incorrect and misleading, since "lucid" refers, as the word suggests, to the (relative) mental clarity, not to the degree of control.

8) A propos the question of whether one can dream that one knows one is dreaming. The answer is probably, yes, but this is not the same thing. I know of a subject who reports that they have had both types of dream. In a lucid dream, they appear to feel much more like being awake than in a normal dream, and agree with this dream analysis when they wake up. In the non-lucid version, they say to themselves in the dream something like, "oh, I must be dreaming", but don't become more rational or more connected to their normal waking memories, and they do not consider themselves to have been lucid when they wake.

9) Re "moronic question I must ask" - this sounds like a brief moment of lucidity or near-ludicity which didn't last - a fairly common phenomenon. When people start trying to cultivate lucid dreams, they often initially have brief periods of lucid dreaming, which then get longer as they get more experienced/practiced. Most lucid dreams eventually end by reverting to non-lucid dreaming, so losing lucidity seems to be something that most dreamers find difficult to avoid!

Purpose

Why do people even try to have lucid dreams? What's the purpose? Scorpionman 22:45, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

-- This link will tell you more. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lucid_Dreaming:_Introduction#About_lucid_dreaming

If you knew what your mind is capable of in terms of performance... Prometheuspan 23:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Skepticism about lucid dreaming?

There's some discussion of skepticism about LD on this talk page, but not really in the article itself - it seems quite POV IMO. Some skepticism about it is discussed here: http://skepdic.com/lucdream.html I'd like to add something of that to the article, but I'll have to consider it further. Schizombie 06:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

But the link you gave doesn't describe any skepticism about LD - in fact, it says Skeptics don't deny that sometimes in our dreams we dream that we are aware that we are dreaming. It's on about skepticism of the New Age stuff which some attribute to LD (The lucid dream is therefore not a gateway to "transcendent consciousness" any more than nightmares are), and that stuff isn't included in this article as far as I can see. What do you think is POV? Mdwh 22:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we're reading that sentence you quoted differently. "Skeptics don't deny that sometimes in our dreams we dream that we are aware that we are dreaming." That is, there is no actual awareness in the dream, only an illusion. Schizombie 05:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Does it even make sense to talk about dreaming that we are aware? That's like saying "I think I think, therefore I think I am." --RLent 20:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean. But it's a bit unclear as it then emphasises the denial being on the "transcendent consciousness" stuff, which isn't presented in this article, nor does it explain the difference between "awareness" and "dreaming of awareness". Unless there is some notable skepticism or research against LD, then there isn't anything we can mention in my opinion. Mdwh 22:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Lucid dreaming refered to in Chinese philosophy

i vaguely remember reading this somewhere. there was a famous Chinese philosopher who, faced with the question: "what is reality?" answered with this story: "one night, i had a wonderful dream about being a butterfly. i would fly around and generaly enjoy myself, until i woke up. but i am no longer able to tell - am i a philosopher, who dreamt about being a butterfly, or am i a butterfly, who is dreaming about being a philosopher?"

maybe this should be mentioned as a cultural side note, if anyone has more firm information.

-

That would be Chuang Tzu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuang_Tsu

A version of the butterfly dream story can be found here: http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/chuangtz.html

This translation of the story specifically mentions that Zhou doesn't realize he is a man dreaming, whilst he is dreaming of being a butterfly. The gist of the story probably hinges upon that fact. So I doubt it could qualify as being about a lucid dream. My understanding is that the story is usually interepreted as an expression of radical skepticism and/or a type of relativism, rather than lucid dreaming. The story does have relevance to lucid dreaming though on a deeper philosophical level: can we know if we are awake or dreaming at any given moment? Lucid dreaming, with it's false awakenings and it's heightened awareness levels does fit especially well with some radical skepticism arguments. Maybe there could be a link to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism#Motivations_for_external_world_skepticism

Aural focusing technique

Nothing about this technique comes up on google, other than the Wikipedia article. Please provide sources that show this is really a widely used technique and not a personal technique someone developed. To me, it looks redundant with WILD. Exabyte (talk) 05:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'm moving the section here; it could be re-inserted if sources are provided. --Zoz (t) 14:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The aural focusing technique is not fully understood, but seems to work very well in amateur or casual lucid dreaming. This involves a very simple setup. One must stay awake until sleep is highly desirable, while watching television, or listening to a radio (radio use seems to yield drastically lessened instances of successful lucid dreaming) and then lowering the volume to a point where the sound is just above the noise that is currently occupying the surroundings. The subject then lies down, and focuses all attention on the sound, while imagining climbing infinite stairs. Under this method, the user will sometimes find themselves in a room extensively similar to the room in which they fell asleep in, but upon leaving this room, something will be radically different. An interesting effect of this method is full auditory awareness, usually the subject will hear the television program that is on, but upon inspection of the television screen in the dream state, the subject will find mostly static images, and sometimes scrolling text, with mostly garbage characters, and one or two repeating words, which change when the television is left and returned to.

Off-topic issues in the article

I just removed the reference to Carlos Castaneda's book (The Art of Dreaming). I've read the book and despite the title, it's not really about lucid dreaming but about mystical Yaqui magic, rituals and nature of existence. --Elonen 14:40, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 22:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC) I have read the book also, and actually, there are some very practical lucid dreaming techniques in it, allthough i admit they are packed in pretty tight between the narrative. For instance "Looking for your hands". I think inclusion is warranted with qualifier "Fiction."

My opinion - For those wondering about LD - And how to improve articles

The thing I don't quite like is those chacra, third eye, aural etc techniques introduced in quite solid articles. This does not give confidence (especially if one is quite sceptical in those kind of things) - like me.

But Lucid Dreaming is a real thing can actually be achieved. Techniques can be used, but you should first make sure it is okay for you (like, for example WILD is said to have strange side effects). Also, you would rather not try lucid dreaming if you are tend to schizophrenia ir so.

Also, check http://ld4all.com and their forums...

a lot of useful info there..

Videogame control of dreams

As a player of videogames, one interesting feature of lucid dreams I have come across is the belief that the dreamer is involved in playing a game. While the article does already mention a third-person perspective in dreams, those who frequently play third-person games can find themselves unsure, at any time, whether they are in direct control of their own actions or are using controls, usually specific to the platform the dreamer plays on; for example, actions can be performed through a percieved press of the X button, the Playstation 2 controller button commonly used for environmental interaction. While these dreams naturally can take place inside an actual game, or game-like/fantasy environment, this is often combined with realistic-seeming situations and actions, creating massive mental confusion and becoming one of the most memorable and bizarre features of any dream. I have found this has also occurred in the dreams of some of my gaming friends, and while the videogame perspective may not be of interest to non-gamers, it seems interesting how these phenomena can be brought on by manipulative actions in the waking world, and I would be interested to hear from anybody with similar experiences, gaming or otherwise.

Macropsia and micropsia

Why are these in the See Also section? The article soes not say anything about relevance of these to lucid dreaming, and there is no obvious connection.

I removed them.--Jeiki Rebirth 21:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)