Talk:List of German language philosophers

Goethe

I'm generally an inclusionist, but the recent inclusion of Schiller and Goethe leads me to ask: why Goethe? (Schiller as philosopher: fine with me.) But on the basis of what texts by Goethe would he be included in this list? I won't remove him, but wanted to ask. Universitytruth 22:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, if we include Goethe, then I think we should rename the list entirely, as well as the first sentence. Instead of "The following is a list of philosophers who wrote in the German language," it would have to read "The following is a list of people who wrote philosophy in the German language." But this is all predicated on someone listing a text by Goethe that would count as philosophy by some reasonable standard. Universitytruth 23:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The introduction to Goethe's Theory of Colours is a contribution to the philosophy of science. This is documented in the late Princeton philosopher Walter Kaufmann's book Goethe, Kant and Hegel. — goethean ॐ 15:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Still, to think of Goethe as a philosopher without further ado doesn't seem right. I'm going to change the opening sentence to "The following is a list of people who wrote philosophy in the German language." Then I have no problem with Goethe being there. Universitytruth 16:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

What's the difference between a philosopher and someone who writes philosophy? — goethean ॐ 16:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Retroactive social construction. That is, a philosopher is whoever most people think a philosopher is, which is why they might come to one kind of list rather than another. If you want to regard Goethe as a philosopher and Schopenhauer as a writer, fine with me, but I'm not sure how helpful wikipedia lists are going to be if we become completely inclusionistic. Does that make sense? Further discussion always welcome. Universitytruth 17:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose another answer is that a writer is someone who writes (including the occasional introduction that might count as belonging to the philosophy of science), whereas a philosopher is someone who philosophizes. Don't get me wrong: Goethe had a huge influence on many fields in the humanities (and medical sciences, and and and...). But to the extent that he belongs in any list (or, one might argue to absurdity, in every list; or something in-between, which I guess we're trying to figure out), it seems to me that he counts first and foremost as a writer. Does that seem controversial to you? Universitytruth 17:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, neglected to mention that I've redirected the previous list to List of Writers of German-language philosophy. Universitytruth 17:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That seems a bit hasty. You could have just put a little note by Goethe indicating that he is primarily known as a literary figure. I would have let User:igni speak before taking drastic measures. I personally find that Anglo-American academics are accustomed to thinking of academic disciplines as eternally static categories. Was there such solid distinctions in the year 1800 in Germany? — goethean ॐ 17:20, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind a reversion at all, and think your suggestion to add a note is fine; feel free to do that. Is it necessary to also insult me and a class of people in the process? Universitytruth

(replied on usertalk) — goethean ॐ 18:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I agree, of course, that distinctions around 1800 were not what they are today. I am also a fan of Herder, Goethe, and Karl Philipp Moritz -- that is, those types around 1800 who fit the least comfortably in any pigeonhole. My concerns about Goethe's inclusion on this particular list have nothing to do with how I view 1800, but have to do with how 21st-century wikipedians search for information. That is, while you're correct to ask about distinctions around 1800, I would suggest that wikipedia exists for 21st-century users, and should be user-friendly to them. Universitytruth 19:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)