Talk:Kuban bandurists

I am going to revert the names back to their Ukrainian transcriptions. If you can find me an article in Russian on the bandura players of the Kuban, I could agree to having Russian transcriptions, however these bandurists were ethnically Ukrainian, and despite living in the Russian Federation have made significant contributions to Ukrainian culture. Antin Chorny lived in Yugoslavia and Argentina and nerve used a Russian transcription of his name. Yemetz, who I studied with in Los Angeles also used Ukrainian transcriptions and was so offended when he was refered to as an ethnic Russian at a television program in Los Angeles that he walked off and declined to perform. It would be doing him a disservice to Russify their names only because they were born in what is now territory currently administered by the Russian Federation. Bandurist 23:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all the most important is not how their names are spelled, but whether the names are known in an ENGLISH source as either transliterations of Russian or Ukrainian. Now by default, as Kuban has always been Russian, and thank god always will be, by default Russian names should be used. However as pointed out by you, with Chorny if he was famous by his Ukrainian name, then so be it, and Yemetz is from Kharkov so my mistake...

Second what is this currently administered by the Russian Federation? Why do have regrets that our beautiful Cossack land has always been Russian? Well that ain't going to change... and forget about this illusion Ukrainian Kuban. In 2002 only 2% of the population of the Kuban said that they are Ukrainian, whilst there are over a million Cossacks living in stanitsas, and all gave their ethnicity as Russians.

Thirdly although I did say that my grandad knows how to play one (he is generally capable with any hand stringed instruments guitars and balalaikas) his first bandura was given to him as gift after liberating a village next to Vinnitsa during the War. In our stanitsa its the accordion (garmoshka) that is the main instrument...and always has been. We do know how to dance the lezginka, which is definitely from our exposure the Circassian culture... --Kuban Cossack 15:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. Is the argument that the majority of sources refer to Antin Holovaty, Yakiv Kukharenko, Mykola Bohuslavsky, Oleksiy Obabko, Fedir Dibrova, Vasyl Lyashenko, Petro Buhay, Mykhailo Teliha, H. Huzar, P. Kikot' (Gelendzhyik), Kuzma Nimchenko, and Svyrid Sotnichenko in a Russified form? The reversion of the place names makes sense (Yekaterinodar, Kiev). But what is the evidence that the above are known by non-Ukrainian names? If there are an abundance of sources available, it would probably end the reverts back and forth. Thanks!--tufkaa 17:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the logic here is not that, there are many Ukrainian people who are known more common by their Russian names, yet we title them in Ukrainian (even for those who are ethnically non even Ukrainian), same here, but in reverse there is no clause in naming convections that say we have to follow their national sympathies or their cultural role. The problem here is as you said "abundance of sources" and I would imagine that outside the bandurist circles (and WP:BIO might apply here) these people would probably not be known anywhere, particularly outside Russia or Ukraine. In such a case we just follow the standard guideline and for those native of Russia - Russian names; native of Ukraine - Ukrainian names... like we always do. --Kuban Cossack 17:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm still confused here. It is not as clear to me from reading the article where any of these people were born. I guess when the red links get filled up, we can get a better sense of where these people were from, and where they spent their time. I'm also not familiar with the policy naming people based on where they are born, and not what their names actually were. What's an example?--tufkaa 18:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. I will search for sources in English. I toured the Kuban for a number of weeks performing in most of the Stanitsas and in Krasnodar. IMHO there are many more Ukrainian speakers there than 2%. I actually heard more Ukrainian spoken there than in Kyiv or in Kharkiv (where I am currently enrolled in studies). Even the titles of concerts etc. were in Ukrainian - although printed in Russian orthography. I visited the museums. I met the people. I also have had considerable contact with Kubantsi in the West having toured most of North America, Australia and Europe with recitals. We are, I see, somewhat of different opinions. Most of the people who have Russian written in their passports in the Kuban' are in fact Ukrainian by ethnicity. The change in ethnicity was one that was institutionalized back in the mid 1930's and this policy from what I can understand continues in the Russian Federation to this day. Despite some people wanting to revert back to Ukrainian, currently there is no mechanism for doing this.

Whilst on tour I remember walking up to some ladies on the main street of Krasnodar and commenting on their fine Ukrainian. Central Ukrainian similar to the Poltava dialect my Grandfather used. They immediately changed over to broken Russian. When I again stated that I had heard them just speak Ukrainian they replied that it wasn't Ukrainian but Kozak dialect. Go figure. I guess there are many that are scared of the term Ukrainian. It has almost become a synonym for bandit or anti-state person. That would explain the great support seen in the movement towards developing a separate nationality not Russian, yet not directly associated with being Ukrainian.

I liked the Kuban' except for the mosquitos. I was very comfortable there, because of the people. They are definitely different from Galician Ukrainians and very much different from ethnic Russians. The only downside was the continual pressure to basically drown out everything Ukrainian which was quite intense and disappointing. --Bandurist 18:09, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

There are over a thousand stanitsas in the Kuban, not only in Krasnodar Kray, but in Karachay Cherkessiya and Adygeya...and you are telling me you visited all of them...:) Well you overpassed our Supreme Ataman General Gromov, even he in the alomst two decades of rebuilding the Kuban Cossack Host has not managed to be everywhere... Now then there is a mechanism for changing your ethnicity btw and in the census it was written as you told them, with noone checking your documents (we are a free country in case you have not realised), but you picked up a very strong point, whilst our dialect can be Ukrainian, spiritually we are but Ukrainians, just like Eastern Ukrainians are Russian speaking, pro-Russian, but are nonetheless Ukrainians. Well think of us as the opposite. In school, I remember 1991, instead of standard Russian the teachers began speaking our Cossack dialect, which was easier for us to understand, but that was it. And in Krasnodar people speak literal Russian, not broken one, as do those in any Kuban city. It is true that we are not Great Russians, but it is also true that we are not Small Russians either, we are Cossacks! Btw you might be interested in this Кубанский Казачий Хор, and as the heading says:

Другая боль Виктора Захарченко — потомственного черноморского казака, для которого неразделимы русское и украинское — отрыв Украины от России. Трещина прошла прямо по его сердцу. Может быть, поэтому самое им выстраданное — песни на стихи Тараса Шевченко и Леси Украинки, — песни, исторгающие слезы у русских и подымающие на ноги тысячные аудитории на Украине. Кто как не простые люди России и Украины, в отличие от своих политиков, горюют о безумии и абсурде нашего разрыва? Поздравляю всех живущих в России сегодня. Творчество композитора Виктора Захарченко — чудо нечаянное, явленное русским духом на рубеже ХХ-го и XXI-гo веков.

Well this divide has happened, and back in 1990s (and if not since we first set foot on the Kuban in 18th century) we had a choice to embrace as part of a massive motherland or to go with some little state that is still torn apart by the east-west divide and is now being used as a clash of spheres of influence battleground between Russia and the West ... Thank you, but no thank you, I am proud of my massive land, and to have recieved a higher education in Saint Petersburg state University, then we Cossacks shed our blood in restoring our territorial integrity in Chechnya. We are Russians, and the more Ukraine will blow its bridges with Russia the wider will Azov get and the more thankful we will be that we are not on the wrong side of it....That does not mean I have anything against ordinary Ukrainians...hey my wife is from Rivne... --Kuban Cossack 18:40, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Victor Zakharchenko organised my tours of the Kuban and I spent a number of evenings in his apartment in Krasnodar. he even visited my parents and my grandfather when he was on tour in Australia. Unfortunately the quotation given above does not match anyhing that he said to me. All I can say is that I disagree with your Point of View, ifact I think that your point of view is wrong and distorted, but that is just a personal perseption. I don't want to argue. I don't want to spend time redoing and correcting. I would rather just put up my stuff about the Bandura.

Russifying names and materials, particularly when the materials clearly were written in Ukrainian with the authors name given in its Ukrainian form jsut because they were printed in Moscow or Krasnodar is silly. If the musician is known to the world through his Ukrainian spelling, if he used it in all his publications, and there is no evidence of Russian spelling, then I strongly feel that there is no logic to transfering it to a ZRussian spelling, particularly if it was the Russians that killed them and destroyed this part of their culture.--Bandurist 06:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)