Talk:Juggling pattern

Suggested stuff to add

Just a suggestion, not a requirement. Hpesoj00 13:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

• Bounce patterns
  • Lift bounce
  • Force bounce
• Passing patterns
• Carries (stuff like ...)
  • Robot
  • Yo-yo
  • Chops
• Body throws
  • Backcrosses
  • Behind the back/penguin catches
• Prop-specific patterns
  • Clubs
    • No./type of spins
    • Flourishes
    • Alberts/treblas (these should probably go here rather than in body throws)
  • Rings
    • Pancakes
    • Pulldowns
• Other
  • Balances/ball bounces
  • Pirouettes/360s

I think there is a place for each of the suggestions above. However, many of these are specific maneouvres or tricks - patterns if you like. I believe that they belong as a different entry to the page about Juggling Notation. The latter should discuss the language and syntax used to describe such patterns reasonably, and perhaps consider the strengths and weaknesses of each notation.

Graham Head (talk) 19:07, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Answering:

Anything bringing juggling forward on wiki is welcome, I'd say.

Bureaucracy and moderation and administration and hierarchy of controlled science ;o) should close an eye here (german saying) to >>keep up with booming exchange and communication on juggling since new media, since >>internet.

thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.143.233.97 (talk) 18:39, 29 July 2011‎

Merge

Juggling notation heavily overlaps with this subject, and the two topics would best be treated together. I propose a merge. Fences&Windows 03:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

sources? references?

The internet has made many topics, new things spread and evolve.
Thus, there is few or no literature or °reliable sources or references° to such newland other than what is being communicated on websites, forums, blogs, twitter, eMails, sms, .. modern media, to resume it up.
how does en.wikipedia.org by the way define source, I mean .. ?

In juggling it is alike. We've had a boom of programs offering the opportunity to find or find out about siteswaps; we've lately seen forums, websites, profiles on platforms and portals spreading the fascination of, or the addiction to, or the ardour and enthusiasm on juggling.

Still, hundreds of years before the internet, people juggled and wrote many books about it.
Yet, all that was before is basic and elementary and historic too, but overcome and does not anymore fully meet the modern communication and exchange about juggling going on lately.
Thus:
We jugglers discussing here on discussion section or exchanging via internet are the very source. :o) Native.

Still, all was written to books cannot be redeemed and is common juggling heritage. And yet again .. few jugglers lately have ever read a book about juggling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.143.233.97 (talk) 18:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

kinds of multiplexes .. 'spreads' ?

hi, .. if you ask me, i think there´s a major difference between 7b-[34]- or 5b-[2T3] - splits (even + uneven height landing in different hands) on the one hand, then [35] or [57] multis (uneven only landing in other hand .. unstacked). So would you call these latter splits too? .. or wouldn't it make sense to refer to those as say 'spreads' or sth.? Or is that the 'cut stacked' throw?
Another difference is between multiplex only - like 7b-[34], 5b-[2T3] or 8b-[35] on the one hand, then siteswaps containing multi-throws (like 4b-[53]3333, 3b-cascade with an additonal 5). 217.84.92.129 (talk) 20:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Then .. can s.o. tell me, what in JugglingLab the option true multiplexing means, please! 217.84.92.129 (talk) 20:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Original research

Why, how, and where does this article contain original research and how should it be improved? Hyacinth (talk) 01:06, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

On the face of it, the patterns have objective names which can be googled or searched for on youtube, etc if they are not in print. Just find a source that A) repeats existing names and does not make up a name or B) take credit for originating the pattern. A == secondary source, , B== primary source. The sources do not need to be academic. Just try to avoid primary sources. Just use some objective evidence (like an article or a video). Original research means, in the case of juggling patterns, a new pattern. If you can find a reporter or teacher or hobbyist to quote, you are safe from the charge of OR. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 02:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 01:06, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

see Help:Shortened footnotes. If you need a tutorial, you might try the Teahouse. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 03:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Difficulty Values

I am the creator of the Library of Juggling (I can't prove this but please, just trust me). While I'm glad that my work is being cited, I think that the difficulty values should not be included for the various tricks, as they are ultimately quite arbitrary and therefore subject to arbitrary change. My information on names and siteswaps are objective and accurate -- with the exception of the "Half-Box", since this is a name I invented. Most jugglers refer to the pattern simply as the 441.

I am going to be bold and remove the difficulty values. If you disagree with my actions then I invite you to discuss your views with me here. --2601:8:9380:C4A:9060:FB49:15B1:66ED (talk) 18:52, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Why are difficulty ratings included on the Library of Juggling? Hyacinth (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

They are included as a general guide for people. Nothing more. I oppose any use of them on Wikipedia. 2601:8:9380:C4A:5549:FB7F:AFDB:FBAE (talk) 00:58, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Naming basic patterns and occasionally referring to prerequisite tricks (like Carry or Yo-yo for the Robot or the underlying siteswap e.g. 423 for Eating the Apple) or skills ("done with crossed arms") are guide enough and more of an instruction than an encyclopedia should give. - And its in the nature of the listed tricks, that the easier ones are listed before the hammers like Rubenstein's Revenge, Burke's Barrage, a.s.o. It's within that no doubt up to the reader to decide which tricks suit his skills and preferences. --RoNeunzig (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Intro

I have rewritten the introduction because it did not make sense to me. I have clarified the defintions of a juggling pattern and a juggling trick. I intend to expand the article based on these definitions. For example the 'Basic Patterns' section should be changed to just 'Patterns' with descriptions and links to 'basic patterns'. Mills Mess etc are not 'basic' and therefore putting them under such a title is confusing and inaccurate for a lay reader. Also as 'juggling tricks' redirects to this page I am going to add a section on tricks as per my definition. My intention is to try to adequately reference all the listed tricks from juggling books. After these changes this page will serve as a general page which links to the specific pages in Wikipedia that describe patterns and tricks in detail. If you have any comments please let me know but please do not change my intro changes without discussion here first. Thanks Robynthehode (talk) 07:48, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Considering Mills Mess as a basic pattern - I think - is due to it serving as "style" for juggling many other patterns. Same would then go for Windmill. Putting this ("some patterns can be used as MM-, Windmill-style") into the article would serve both - lay's reading and the special importance of MM as style. so as to not having to consider it as basic pattern, subsuming falsely it being an easy elementary beginner's pattern.

Considering Mills Mess as a basic pattern aswell is due to its many variations, which make it basic for these. - Just as any trick can serve as "basic" for varying on it. Any trick with many variations or tricks underlying their whole trick-families (Boxes, upside-down-stuff, trick under oher trick, Yo-yos, .. Messes, Showers, .. ) should then be considered "basic", which is futile, seen that actually doing a juggling pattern is always an interpretation and individual variation, let alone the dynamic open to the top character of juggling for inventing new variations.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by RoNeunzig (talk • contribs) 13:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree on your changes: "pattern" and "trick" in juggling jargon are used synonymously, not like a "trick" there is to - say - a magic trick or a trick at achieving a result at working, handling, cooking, manipulating, an optical trick, something that goes around the (perceived) normal way to do sth, like a trick to open a bottle. - What you describe as "trick" are (or: is confusing with "trick":) "single throws" ("out of the pattern") or "body throws and catches" (that "neck"- or "behind the back"-stuff). And there is another term, "move" e.g. a carry (which is well defined trick and pattern as "The Carry", but also just a move appearing e.g. in Yo-yo, Pendulum, Burke's Barrage). A "high throw out of pattern" is an "One Up" ("throw" of course, never - taken for itself - a "trick", not even a "single throw" and no "move"). Many body- or single-throws - then again - serve as main motive to a trick. Backcrosses, Penguins, Claws, Neckthrows, any body throw or "handling technique", can be, either single throws or more or less permanent (rythmic, every n-th throw) body throws performed as juggling trick. - It irritated me too in the beginning and I had to get used to this seeming misuse of the word "trick" which has become familiar as synonymous to "pattern". - But the jargon is yet young and has revealed undoubted variety in possibilities shown up by juggling animators and programs and siteswap calculators since digital revolution as much as internet easierly getting jugglers together on convos and meetings or forums and sites. I think we have this use of the word "trick" in other trendsports or classical sports like footbagging, keepie-uppie, Manipulation of basketballs, waking, biking, dance steps, kiting, wave-boarding. "figure" is also a word apt (or too, a synonym) in cases. --217.84.98.108 (talk) 13:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

How to distinguish neckthrow / -catch with hands from those with neck?

Hi, a "neckthrow" thrown with hand goes past behind the neck over the other shoulder to the other side, the catch done same way back .. but then some artists catch a high ball with the neck (bending whole upper body down) then skyrocket it up with a move of neck and head, which also would be a "neckcatch / -throw". Thanks for solving! [signed german user RoNeunzig ] --217.84.98.108 (talk) 12:13, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Burke's Barrage

Pattern section has no references; Lede references can be used in Juggling patern. DThomsen8 (talk) 20:44, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Vote: no. - Burke's Barrage is being varied in many ways. It can be looked upon as a basic pattern for a whole family of variations based on it as ground state or core pattern. Merging would reduce the possibility to enlarge the article on such behalves. --217.84.92.222 (talk) 14:48, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Support No prejudice against expanding it again if it becomes unwieldy, but I don't think it's even a remarkably notable pattern. I'm also not sure I see how it is the basis for any other patterns. The basic 432 pattern is the basis for Burke's Barrage and a family of similar patterns. The claw catches and arm motions are somewhat similar to Rubenstein's Revenge, but Rubenstein's Revenge isn't even 432. To the extent it's notable, it's because it's a fairly simple but fairly impressive arm-crossing pattern, like Mills Mess.

Another reason I think it's unlikely to be expanded significantly is that I can't really find too many WP:RS discussing it. I tried to find a source to determine whether the Burke's Barrage is caught with a claw catch or not and was not particularly successful. Some discussions mention a claw catch, others do not, but all of the places explaining it are just juggling fan sites. The Juggle Wikia page is also not particularly extensive. Almost all discussion on the pattern is tutorials. 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 23:16, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Done. Moved all citations, added a quote, etc. Hyacinth (talk) 03:08, 19 October 2016 (UTC)