Talk:John P. Holland Centre

Tag

• tagged:

This article may primarily relate to a different subject, or place undue weight on a particular aspect rather than the subject as a whole. Please help by spinning off or relocating any relevant information, and removing excessive detail that may be against Wikipedia's inclusion policy.

• Tag changed to:
• This article may primarily relate to a different subject, or place undue weight on a particular aspect rather than the subject as a whole.

• Please do not tag and run.
  • This is about John P. Holland, and the museum about him and his first practical submarines, what part is "a different subject" please?

Please reply or remove tag. Telecine Guy (talk) 21:25, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi. I added the tag. Because, of approximately 270 words in the current version of the article, perhaps 45 of them relate to the titular subject. The rest relate to John Philip Holland, Holland 1, and the Holland Torpedo Boat Company. Is there anything that can actually be said (and supported) about the museum? Other than that it exists and where it exists? If not, why have a standalone article? (You imply above that the article is intended to be about Holland, his submarines AND the museum. This [article] is about John P. Holland, and the museum about him and his first practical submarines. Based on its title, this article should be about the museum. There are already articles about Holland and his submarines. We do not need a further COATRACK/CFORK covering those two topics. To create a new article, covering all three overlapping topics, is counter to WP:SS.) Guliolopez (talk) 23:48, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. Agreed. Text about him can be shorted, if you wish. This is the only museum about him, in his hometown.Telecine Guy (talk) 00:42, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Tag

• Tag: "general notability guideline"
• John Phillip Holland, designer and built the first practical submarine.
• This is not notable? First practical submarine, you are joking?
• Someone deleted the fact that John P. Holland holds many submarine patents that were used in many submarines for years (technology still used today).

Telecine Guy (talk) 21:44, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi. As above, John Philip Holland and the Holland 1 may be notable, but that does not mean that the subject of this article (a museum about the man and his work) is automatically notable. (George Boole and Boolean algebra are notable. If I open a small museum to him, my museum is not automatically notable.) Notability is not inherited or transferred. As per WP:NRV, for example, a claim of notability must be supported by "objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources". As it stands, the only sources we have that mention the subject of *this article* (the museum) is a blog/forum post, a phonebook-style directory entry and a (dead/archived) version of the subject's own "placeholder" webpage. Guliolopez (talk) 23:56, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

• Agreed, but this is not a small museum that "someone made". It is the only museum to him, made in his hometown with a bronze statue also. Museum is next to a road named after him, Holland Drive. If you just made small museum, as you argue, I do not think you could get the city to rename a street.Telecine Guy (talk) 00:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

  Hi. The road is not named after the museum. It is named after the man. Holland Street in Liscannor, for example, was renamed (from Castle Street) in the 1960s. 50 years after Holland's death. And well over 50 years before the museum opened. Regardless, and as above, that a street is (also) named after the man does not confer notability on the museum. (Separately, everything manmade is something that "someone made". If you are focusing on that simple example, then you are missing the point. If the museum is notable, where is coverage of it as a stand-alone topic? A blog post, directory entry and the subject's own (dead) website do not amount to WP:SIGCOV....) Guliolopez (talk) 00:54, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Podcast

Hi @Telecineguy:. I have now listened to this podcast a few times. Apologies if I'm missing the obvious, but at what point/time-stamp is the museum (and its opening date) mentioned? Guliolopez (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• This info is on the museum's facebook page, which was removed from the page.

• This is a classical on wikipedia.org, deleted the refs and then delete the page as there are no refs. The only museum to the founder of the submarine, looks to be going away. Telecine Guy (talk) 22:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Telecine Guy (talk) 22:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Telecineguy. Apologies, but I don't think I fully follow you. In terms of:

• the podcast (as a reference), even if (as you suggest) the date of opening isn't mentioned, where/when is the museum covered? How does the podcast link support the text it is placed alongside?
• a Facebook post (as a reference or evidence of coverage/notability), it is long established that Facebook posts are problematic as refs and do not establish notability.
• the suggestion that I (or anyone) "deleted the refs and then delete the page as there are no refs"; Notability is established by the existence of coverage and sources OUTSIDE Wikipedia. Removing potentially problematic sources from the article doesn't precipitate deletion of an article.

Guliolopez (talk) 11:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• Some places use Facebook to communicate to the public, like their official web page. This place is the official museum (and only museum), in his hometown, to the inventor of the submarine. I have been told it "is just a museum that someone made." I see no middle ground. The other problem is language, around the museum, 50% speak the Irish language. I am done working on the page, why waste time, lots of text has been deleted, it is clear others are set to have it gone. Telecine Guy (talk) 16:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi again.

RE: "The other problem is language, around the museum, 50% speak the Irish language". I have absolutely no idea what possible relevance this has to the subject or this discussion. Or why it is a "problem". But, of the 54 people in Liscannor for the 2016 census who said they could speak Irish, none said they speak Irish on a daily basis or as their first language. In fact, the majority of the 54 people in Liscannor who can speak Irish, either never use it at all or only use it very infrequently (less frequently than daily/weekly). I fail to see what the relevance of the Irish language is to the museum, but if you are implying that there is limited coverage because English isn't the main language in the area, then that has no basis in reality. None. Zero. Zip. Liscannor is not in a Gaeltacht area. And everyone in Liscannor (even those for whom English is a second language) speak English. (FYI - I am an Irish speaker, and have been an administrator and crat on the Irish language Wikipedia for many many years, and I find the suggestion that Irish speakers in the area are a "problem" (relative to the coverage of the museum) to be bizarre. Bordering on the ridiculous.)

RE: "lots of text has been deleted". The only text that's been shortened or removed is a very small amount of the duplicate biographical information on Holland. Which, as above, you specifically agreed should/could "be shorted, if you wish".

RE: "why waste time [..] it is clear others are set to have it gone". If you feel the subject has sufficient notability to warrant its own article, then contribute at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John P. Holland Centre.

(PS. The text you quote above ('I have been told it "is just a museum that someone made."') are your own words. You are quoting yourself. Not me or anyone else. Nobody "told" you anything of the sort.)

Guliolopez (talk) 17:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)