Talk:Islamic toilet etiquette/Archive 1

talking

Okay then, if I'm not allowed to talk whilst I'm in the toilet, then I'm not even allowed to say I'm in the toilet even if someone's about to open the door or switch off the lights. --Fantastic4boy 23:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are allowed. It's more a 'Don't do, unless absolutely necessary', the case when somebody is opening the door, would be more harmful than shouting out 'stop', as for the darkness after switching of the light - it would be rather contraproductive in the sense of becoming clean. -anon 15:35, 4 March 2009 (GMT+1)

I find some of the rules stated below to be ridiculous/bias without credible sources:

• One should not face nor turn your back on Mecca whilst relieving yourself. One should sit at 90 degrees.
• One should be out of sight of people when going to the toilet.
• It is considered forbidden to relieve oneself whilst standing up, lying down or if you are completely nude. (citation needed)
• One should avoid going to the toilet anywhere where people may take rest or gather for any purpose.
• Do not raise clothes until you get close to the ground and do not uncover the body any more than is needed.
• One should sit on the feet (e.g. squat) keeping thighs wide apart with the stress on the left foot.
• Do not look to the private parts of the body nor the waste matter passed from the body.
• Do not sit more than needed.
• Do not spit, blow nose, look hither and thither, touch the body unnecessarily nor look towards the sky but relieve oneself with the eyes downcast in modesty.

I don't remember any of my Muslim friends mentioning about some of the rules above. So, I have questions to ask from the above. If you're sitting on a toilet seat in a position that is facing Mecca, then what would you do? You're? Then, your back is going to face the direction of Mecca and that'll be even more offensive that you're relieving your. So what if guys that stand up to relieve themselves in urination? Would I be sinned for doing it? I know lots of Muslim guys that do them. With the stress on the left foot - where did you get that information from (and quote them with verifiable sources please)? Okay, so how about if I have a block nose whilst I'm relieving myself and that I need to get rid of the stuff in my nose as an emergency approach so that I can breath easily? If I look at the sky, what would happen to me? --Fantastic4boy 00:12, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard anything about facing Mecca. I have been raised a Muslim in the middle east too.

I was thaught these, and i live in Germany with parents from turkey-anon 15:35, 4 March 2009 (GMT+1)

Please see references section on credible sources. That is what it is there for.-Randalllin 02:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

A link: http://www.islam-laws.com/taharatandnajasat.htm Surely you can search on the web for credible sources yourself. RPSM (talk) 13:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Totally unencyclopedic

Is this supposed to be a joke? Khorshid 07:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC) Similar rules apply in Judaism - e.g. that only the left hand is used for washing the body, and the right hand for eating. In Judaism, this naturally predates Islam. Hindus generally use water after the toilet, and Ghandi was surprised when he came to the west and found only paper and no water available. One law in Judaism is that a Jew should not teach Torah (religion) to a non-Jew (unless he or she intends to convert). I suspect that one reason is that one is open to ridicule. Both Islam and Judaism have instructions and laws for various aspects of daily life: suitable clothes to wear, washing the hands etc. ritual bathing and the most intimate areas of life are regulated from discussions of what is the best thing to do. RPSM (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Though, Muslims are allowed teach the Koran to non-Muslims, as this is one main way that allows them to learn about Islam. There is no evidence, whatsoever, to prove otherwise. --Fantastic4boy (talk) 18:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Other Sunnahs

No mention is made of hadiths which state that one should not urinate in still water, or near a fruit bearing tree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aa2-2004 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Now I know why some of my friends from the middle east have no toilet paper

I had to use their toilet but I could not find any toilet paper. I thought it was just forgetfulness but I soon learned that none of them had toilet paper availiable. I was a little embarrased to ask why, I just brought my own paper or used some kitchen roll which they always seemed to have at hand.

When using the left hand for rubbing the anus, what happens with the shit that gets under their nails? Do they use nail brushes? What about left handed people, should I avoid shaking hands with them T.R. 87.59.100.60 (talk) 18:30, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I learned something today.

It never occurred to me that they use water. Always figured one would have to rub the crap off on a wall or something, in which case you'd still have shit left in your arse and on your hand. And it would defeat the entire purpose of the whole exercise. As for not adding animal dung, is it really necessary to mention that in the article? Or do some people actually think they can fight feces with more feces? --90.231.34.215 (talk) 03:41, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The Islamic rules for toilet etiquette are 100% true and correct; we learn them as we go along as children by our parents or with Moulvi Sahib in the mosque. If some Muslims do not know them it means their parents were lax in their Islamic upbringing - such persons are far more likely to take wine, fornicate etc as their Islamic grounding is weak. As to what to do if the toilet already faces the holy city of Makkah, we try to use another if available or if not we use it as we've no other choice. However, when I was buying my new house two years ago, I summarily told the estate agent not to show me any possible house where the toilets facced Makkah, as I am fastidious in this regard. Kslall8765 (talk) 23:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge?

The only reason I'm asking and not just doing it is because of the recent AfD. Does anyone object to merging to Islamic hygienical jurisprudence#Islamic toilet etiquette? With all the unsourced stuff gone this is just a stub, and the main article is very small. When this gets expanded with references there's no reason we can't split back out here, but for now it would be more convenient to just discuss all of this in one article. --Explodicle (T/C) 20:37, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Given the recent AfD, I'd leave it alone for the time being, and give editors some time to build it back up with sourced information. Merging it now, is in essence what the AfD attempted to do and by doing so at this time, would be to negate votes that were in favor of keeping the article stand-alone. --Nsaum75 (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per the AFD result of Keep. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:02, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

How long would you like me to wait before suggesting a merge? --Explodicle (T/C) 13:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

• The previous discussion was two years ago so I suggest you revisit the matter in another 2 years. Wikipedia has no deadline. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

• That's unreasonable. The recent AfD is the only good reason not to merge right now, and the participants of that discussion won't even remember this article in two years. Can't we agree on a month or so? --Explodicle (T/C) 16:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

• There's no need to wait in these sort of matters. I agree it would be a good idea to merge.--Sloane (talk) 04:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

After a month of no improvements, I merged the article into Islamic hygienical jurisprudence#Islamic toilet etiquette. --Explodicle (T/C) 20:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

A lot of things removed... is this a good source?

http://sunniyat.blogspot.com/2008/08/islamic-etiquettes-of-using-toilet.html list plenty of rules, along with references to where they are found at. I believe the article could be made more complete by using these. But do all Islamic people use the same set of rules? Dream Focus 04:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• Blogs (like the Blogspot one you list above) are not acceptable sources. --Explodicle (T/C) 15:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
• I've reverted the edit to restore the page. This is just a temporary measure until the parent article expands enough for a split. --Explodicle (T/C) 15:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

The blog list acceptable sources, from books. And a temporary measure makes no sense at all. It'll grow faster here. I hadn't realized so much of the article had been deleted, or I would've come over here sooner. We can find some legitimate sources for things. Dream Focus 15:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

• If the blog lists reliable sources then we can cite those, but sources don't validate using the blog post itself as a source. If you can find those books and cite them per WP:CITE#HOW, then I don't have any objections to using them. --Explodicle (T/C) 17:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
• There is no direct evidence to suggest the article will grow faster here; in the month before I performed the merge there were no improvements. Of course, you can always prove me wrong by making it grow fast. --Explodicle (T/C) 17:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
• Assuming the same information is available in either section or article form, I think it would be most useful to the reader if we present this information in context with Islamic Hygiene requirements in general. It's not enough to just list the rules; we need to make it clear why Muslims see these rules as important. That's explained in the introduction to the parent article, and I don't see why we should do it twice if we can fit it all on one page. --Explodicle (T/C) 17:29, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

It has a citation, so why does it say "citation needed"?

I already put references there, so why do you need another citation? The Mishkat is a notable book, and if its in there, it is certainly valid. Both things added have references to what book and page they were featured on. Dream Focus 00:56, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

If you're talking about this edit where I added two [clarification needed] tags, it was because I didn't know who/what Mishkat or Sunaan ibn Majah were. I've since created redirects and added a link to prevent anyone else from getting confused. Keep in mind that we're writing for a layperson audience that may not be familiar with these sources, so citations with more information may be helpful. --Explodicle (T/C) 15:29, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

All information found easily at Hadith collection

Hadith collection explains where the sources of the information can be found at. There are far too many to list here, so we just have a sample of them. Some things are repeated in a different way, by different Islamic writers. Dream Focus 06:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

"Do not touch penis in lavatory"

Honest question: how do they urinate if they can't touch it in the lavatory? --Explodicle (T/C) 15:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't need to touch it in those types of toilets, they on the ground, you just kneeling down as you pull up your robes as much as necessary, and then it all comes out. Aiming isn't really a problem, unless standing feet above your target as with Western toilets. Dream Focus 17:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

about your recent edits

• The Islamic prophet Muhammad specified that one should use an odd number of stones to clean the anal orifice after defecation and then proceed to a different location to wash it with water. Use of toilet paper in place of stones is now thought acceptable, but washing with water is still needed for purity.[7] The Prophet forbade relieving yourself people's pathways or in their shade, or in standing water.[8]

Why did you merge things like that instead of leaving it two separate things? How to clean yourself has nothing to do with pissing in someone's pool.

I lumped them together because they were the only two things suggested by the Prophet himself. If you disagree I'm OK with keeping them separate. --Explodicle (T/C) 19:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

• Do not breath while drinking water;[clarification needed] do not touch penis in lavatory and do not cleanse private parts with your right hand.[9]

The clarification is that that was part of the same sentence, so uses the same reference. It is written like this, thus it is a law, involving toilets. In some places they used water to wash themselves, using it for drinking water as well. Dream Focus 18:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. Do you have a source for this? I think explaining the context in the article would reduce confusion. --Explodicle (T/C) 19:00, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

They had toilets and water fountains[1], but that doesn't say together. The Romans taxed flowing water so people had illegal connections.[2] This link also shows pictures of some toilets, to get a look at what was around back then. A girl at a modern school said she and other Muslims brought a bottle of water with them when they used the toilet there, to clean themselves with water, instead of toilet paper.[3]. I'm thinking perhaps they got water from somewhere, and then poured it down on them, they not apparently having pipes for that sort of thing. If I find any pictures of Arab toilets from the time period the law was written, or other information I'll add it. Perhaps only public toilets had running water, so they had their drinking water access outside, thus you had to hold your breath so you didn't smell the crap next door. I don't know yet. I'll keep searching. This sort of thing isn't what many writers would've noted in their histories of that time. Dream Focus 19:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed quote

I just removed this quote from the article, but since this is a gray area and my edits here have been unpopular, I'd like to note it here.

Say before entering the toilet: "In the name of Allah, O Allah! I seek refuge with You from all offensive and wicked things"

— Al-Bukhaaree?

I'm not sure what book this is, but I think it might be the one discussed here. A search for "Saheeh al-Bukhaaree" returns 18 book results, none of which appear to be the one I'm looking for. When I search for the translation, all I can find are a bunch of idiots talking about how dumb they think Islam is. I realize Wikipedia is not censored, but at this point I think leaving material up here without verifying it is damaging to Islam and its adherants. If someone wants to restore the quote, pretty please provide a real citation so I can make sure this wasn't made up by somebody on Stormfront posing as an expert. --Explodicle (T/C) 14:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)