Talk:Homer the Moe/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Philcha (talk) 15:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll mark  Done comments when I think they're resolved, highlight  Not done any that are unresolved when most others are done, and strike out any of comments that I later decide are mistaken. --Philcha (talk) 16:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Over to you. Go for it! --Philcha (talk) 20:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• Before I look at your suggestions, I'd just like to thank you for taking your time to review this, I really appreciate it! :D Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry you've had to wait so long for a review. --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

• No problem, I've been busy Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Coverage

•  Done Looks good at the top level. I may have more in specific sections. --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Structure

•  Done Looks good at the top level, and I note the FAs at WikiProject Simpsons have the same structure. I may have more in specific sections. --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Plot

•  Done Looks like the right length and level of detail. --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done In "After Homer tells a bizarre story about Bart digging a hole ...", why "bizzare". --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • I'll change it to "After Homer tells a story about Bart digging a hole ...", unless you suggest something else? Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done In "... Moe complains about the routine at his tavern would "monotony" be better? ("monotony" even sounds monotonous :-D) --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Sounds good to me! Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done I think you tried too hard to make more concise "At the university, Moe finds his old, dying professor, who advises Moe to improve his situation by modernizing his bar just before his professor drowns himself in the campus lake." How about e.g. "At the university, Moe finds his old professor, who is dying. After advising Moe to modernizing his bar, the professor drowns himself in the campus lake"?
  • Sure. Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done Either way, please w-link tavern, professor and campus - some of the readers may be young, and some of these words are used slightly differently, e.g. "professor" in UK is the usually head of a university department. --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC) --Philcha (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Done. Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done In "When confronted by Moe with the fact that it is illegal to operate a bar in a private residence, Homer claims that it is in fact a hunting club (which, though indicated by a sign, angers Michael Stipe, lead singer of R.E.M. who was told by Homer that this was an environmental activist bar), citing a law book. Moe consults the book and determines that the club must engage in the sport of hunting. Homer decides that he will hunt for a turkey for Thanksgiving dinner, despite Lisa’s objections", the parentheses "(which, though indicated by a sign, angers Michael Stipe, lead singer of R.E.M. who was told by Homer that this was an environmental activist bar)" are indigestible. We need the comments about Michael Stipe and R.E.M. to set up the joke "entirely of tofu and gluten" in the next para. Would the comments about Michael Stipe and R.E.M. be better at the end of a the para? --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Which para? The last or the second? Queenieacoustic (talk) 17:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I mean Stipe's ire when he expected a environmental activist bar but found a hunting club. --09:59, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
      • How about I take away "(which, though indicated by a sign, angers Michael Stipe, lead singer of R.E.M. who was told by Homer that this was an environmental activist bar)" and change the last sentence in the last para to "...entirely of tofu and gluten” provided by Michael Stipe, who is an environmentalist."? Queenieacoustic (talk) 13:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
        • Nice! --Philcha (talk) 14:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done I think "Homer sets out the next day to find a turkey, but Lisa and Moe come up with a plan to stop him; using a whistle that sounds like a cougar, they distract him from his quarry" could be more concise and avoid the semi-colon. How about "Homer sets out the next day to find a turkey, but Lisa and Moe distract him from his quarry, using a whistle that sounds like a cougar." --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Sure. Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done What are "Lisa’s objections"? --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • To quote the episode, Lisa says "Hunting? Dad, no!". I think "Lisa's objections" summarises it pretty well, please tell me how you want it... Queenieacoustic (talk) 17:42, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
    • "objections" could be a set of reasons, and appears to have no effect on Homer. "Hunting? Dad, no!" sounds more like an exclamation (exasperation?). How about e.g. "... he will hunt for a turkey for Thanksgiving dinner, and Lisa exclaims, "Hunting? Dad, no!"."
      • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done "After he apologizes" - Homer? --Philcha (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Clarified it. Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Production

•  Done In "Homer the Moe" was written by Dana Gould, the first episode he wrote for the show, and directed by Jen Kamerman", "the first episode he wrote for the show" jars. How about e.g. "Jen Kamerman directed "Homer the Moe", which was the first episode Dana Gould wrote for the show." --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Sounds good. Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Thanks. --Philcha (talk) 11:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done I think "The story that Homer tells at the beginning of the episode was conceived by George Meyer; “We were thinking of a way to start the show...”, says Gould, “...and George said: 'I like how kids will just dig a hole'" is clumsy and has nested quote marks. How about e.g.: Gould says that, when the team were thinking of a way to start the show, George Meyer said, "I like how kids will just dig a hole." --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Changed it, but I added "In the DVD commentary for the episode... " into it, if it's okay with you? Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Fine. --Philcha (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done What's the "Chinese satellite scene". --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • It's a joke at the end of Homer's story. It was written by Dana Gould. Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Can you summarise it? E.g. did it fire a missile, or send a message to a character, or pirate a Simpsons episode, or what? --Philcha (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Changed the sentence to "Homer's story ends with a Chinese satellite spying on Bart. This was an attempt by Gould to write a bizarre joke in the style of fellow Simpsons writer John Swartzwelder." Queenieacoustic (talk) 09:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done " Moe's plot in the second act was also conceptualized by Meyer, who suggested ..." - "conceptualized "??? How about "Meyer suggested ...". --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • "Conceptualize" is a synonym to "create". If we use "suggest", the word will be used twice in the same sentence and that just wouldn't look good if you ask me. Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • "created" would be better then. "conceptualized" is horrible media-speak. --Philcha (talk) 16:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 11:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done "... based on the professor from the afore-mentioned series" - "afore-mentioned"??? How about "... the school's professor would be based on the one from the earlier series"? --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Should actually be "from aforementioned series", sorry about that. Again, I don't see why we necessarily need to change it, but if you insist... Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • A policeman's report might use "aforementioned" but a news report would say "the earlier series". --Philcha (talk) 17:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Allright. Queenieacoustic (talk) 11:45, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done Too many "hunting club" in "Gould contributed the hunting club plot for the episode, in which Homer turns his garage into a hunting club". How about e.g. "Gould contributed the plot idea in which Homer turns his garage into a hunting club". --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Done. Queenieacoustic (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done "Gould got inspiration for the story from his father who opened a hunting club. By opening the hunting club, Gould's father could sell alcohol without having to obtain a liquor-license, much like Homer in this episode" can be more concise, e.g. "By opening a hunting club, Gould's father could sell alcohol without having to obtain a liquor-license, much like Homer in this episode". --Philcha (talk) 18:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • I see, but then it would only be implied that Gould's father was the inspiration for the story. It needs to be pointed out. How about "Gould's father was the inspiration for the episode; by opening a hunting club, Gould's father could sell alcohol without having to obtain a liquor-license, much like Homer in this episode"? Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • This para starts, "Gould contributed the plot idea in which Homer turns his garage into a hunting club." Then "Being the concept storyline of the episode, the plot turns up relatively late, starting around the third act of the show" interrupts the flow of the story, and has poor writing: "the concept storyline" is meaningless, perhaps "central" is better; IMO the main story is the make-over and then restoration of Moe's bar, and the part about Homer's bar is the stimulus for the restoration of Moe's bar (and presumably of the Simpsons' home); in "Being the concept storyline ... the plot turns up relatively late ...", I don't see how "the plot turns up relatively late" is why the part about Homer's bar is central. I suggest removing "Being the concept storyline of the episode, the plot turns up relatively late, starting around the third act of the show". If you think it is important, you need to fix the logic then the phrasing, including explaining that this is about Homer's bar. Then make the "history" of Gould's father's hunting club / bar. --Philcha (talk) 17:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
      • By concept storyline I meant the original storyline, the plot that was originally the basis for the episode. I'll try and clarify it in the article. Queenieacoustic (talk) 11:57, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
        • Okay, so I changed "Being the concept storyline of the episode, the plot turns up relatively late, starting around the third act of the show" into "This would originally be the center of the episode, until the writers came up with and decided to make Moe's bar renovation the main storyline. Homer's plot was instead implemented into the third act of the episode.", and I changed "Gould's father was the inspiration for the episode" into "... for this storyline". What do you think? Queenieacoustic (talk) 12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
          •  Done "This would originally be the center of the episode, until the writers came up with and decided to make Moe's bar renovation the main storyline. Homer's plot was instead implemented into the third act of the episode" breaks the story of Gould's father's hunting club. I think "This would originally be ... third act of the episode" would be better at the end of the para. Also "This would originally be ... third act of the episode" is clumsily written. How about something like e.g. "This / Homer's bar was originally the center of the episode, but became the third act when the writers came up with the renovation of Moe's bar and made it the main storyline." --Philcha (talk) 09:28, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
            • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 09:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
          •  Done "Gould got inspiration for the story from his father who opened a hunting club. By opening the hunting club, Gould's father could sell alcohol without having to obtain a liquor-license, much like Homer in this episode" can be more concise, e.g. "Gould remembered how his father opened a hunting club and could sell alcohol without having to obtain a liquor-license. This inspired the idea of Homer's club." --Philcha (talk) 09:28, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
            • Sounds good. Queenieacoustic (talk) 09:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
              • I still think "Gould contributed the plot idea in which Homer turns his garage into a hunting club" is redundant. --Philcha (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
                • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 15:39, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done In "The professor working at the Swigmore University ...", you could remind readers, e.g. "Moe's professor at Swigmore University ...". --Philcha (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Sounds good. Queenieacoustic (talk) 23:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Thanks. --Philcha (talk) 17:49, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Cultural references

•  Done "at the Swigmore University". --Philcha (talk) 10:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Reception

•  Done Re "In its original American broadcast on November 18, 2001, “Homer the Moe” was watched by 14.5 million viewers, according to Nielsen Media Research, making it the most watched television show of its timeslot that night. The episode received a 7.1 rating/17 share among adult viewers between ages 18 and 49":
  •  Done The cited NBC, CBS Rule Week Despite Slow Sunday doesn't mention "Homer the Moe", so I can't see how it can support anything about the show.
    • Well, the article reports ratings from November 18, 2001, the night the episode aired, so I'm convinced this is the episode they're referring to even though they don't refer to it by its name. I know that we should not use Original Research when writing articles, but I've seen this happen before in an article that was promoted to GA less than a year ago. It's called Homer Defined, and it uses this news article as a reference even though the episode isn't referred to by name. I personally think the same goes for this episode, but first, let me know what you think! :) Queenieacoustic (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
      • My mistake, "Fox took Sunday by all measures ..." does the job. Sorry. --Philcha (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  •  Done What does "The episode received a 7.1 rating/17 share among adult viewers between ages 18 and 49" mean for those who don't know Nielsen-speak, including me. --Philcha (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
    • I'll add an explanation. Queenieacoustic (talk) 22:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Thanks. --Philcha (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
      • I've done a minor copyedit. --Philcha (talk) 11:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done "On September 14, 2004, "Homer the Moe" was released, along with the episodes "Homer's Night Out", "The Mansion Family" and "Sunday, Cruddy Sunday" on a DVD set entitled The Simpsons - Gone Wild. The episode was released again as part of The Simpsons: The Thirteenth Season DVD and Blu-Ray set, released August 24, 2010" has 2 problems:
  •  DoneBoth citations are Amazon sales pages. While I can't see that these Amazon pages are prohibited under Wikipedia:V#What_counts_as_a_reliable_source, I'm sure I've seen citations to Amazon rejected. Google just found me enough in page 1, search for "The Simpsons - Gone Wild" with quotes. And most of the critics you cite already list the "The Simpsons: The Thirteenth Season" DVD and its episodes. --Philcha (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Should have thought about that, sorry. Queenieacoustic (talk) 22:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
      • Well fixed. --Philcha (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  •  Done This is not "Reception", which is about critics and public's comments. Perhaps better in "Production"? Or "Marketing" as in films, e.g. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (film)#Marketing - although it would be a very short section. --Philcha (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
    • How about we change the section's name to "Release and Reception"? Otherwise we could make a new section and call it "Home release", or perhaps make a subsection with that title. Queenieacoustic (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
      • I prefer "Home release" as the last section. --Philcha (talk) 17:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
        • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 17:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done Dominic von Riedemann's "The Simpsons The Thirteenth Season DVD Review" is allegedly a Web page, but no URL or accessdate. --Philcha (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • When I wrote the article, Wikipedia wouldn't accept the link since it allegedly would send spam to visitors, or something similar. I'll change the accessdate to the time I added it to the article, and I'll try to post the link again.Queenieacoustic (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
    • Well, that didn't work. It seems like Suite101 is on Wikipedia's blacklist and cannot be used as a reference. Looking back at the article though, I actually don't think that particular review is necessary, since we have at least two other reviews holding pretty much the same opinion as that one anyways. I guess I could remove it, or try and get it whitelisted. What do you think? Queenieacoustic (talk) 22:56, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
      • You seem to have removed it. --Philcha (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done "received mixed reviews from critics" sounds a little WP:OR - it's OK for e.g. Metacritic to summarise the views of many sources and for us to use such summaries (with cites), but not for WP editors to write their summaries. --Philcha (talk) 17:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 17:48, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done "The episode's plot was criticized by reviewers" is redundant, as you summarise all the adverse comments. Then you'll need to copyedit the next sentence. --Philcha (talk) 17:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  •  Done I'll remove it then. Queenieacoustic (talk) 17:48, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
  •  Done "Ron Martin of 411Mania also criticized the plot, describing it described the plot as ..." can be more concise. --10:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Done. Queenieacoustic (talk) 10:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
  •  Done As you've already summarise [7] and [8], and are going to summarise [9], "Some critics felt that the episode was one of the worst episodes of the season.[7][8][9] Among them was" is redundant. --Philcha (talk) 10:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
    • Okay. Queenieacoustic (talk) 10:49, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
      • Sorry, I mean cut all of "Some critics felt that the episode was one of the worst episodes of the season.[7][8][9] Among them was" and add a summary of Shaffer's comment. --Philcha (talk) 15:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
        • Did't realize that, sorry. Fixed. Queenieacoustic (talk) 15:44, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
          • My fault, I wasn't clear. Thanks for fixing it. --Philcha (talk) 21:28, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
• I've done a little copyedit in the last few sentences. I hope your agree. --Philcha (talk) 21:28, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Dead links and DAB pages

•  DonePreliminary check of User:Dispenser/Checklinks shows all code 200 (OK), except one says 302, but I check that and it's OK. --Philcha (talk) 20:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done Preliminary check of DAB checker says "no disambiguation links". --Philcha (talk) 20:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done I'll check again with User:Dispenser/Checklinks and the DAB checker when the content is stable. --Philcha (talk) 20:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Rechecks are fine. --Philcha (talk) 14:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Images

•  Done The lead image File:Homer_The_Moe.png has an adequate Fair Use Rationale. --Philcha (talk) 20:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
•  Done The use of the R.E.M. pic File:Padova_REM_concert_July_22_2003_blue.jpg has no Fair Use Rationale for Homer the Moe, shows the actual flesh-and-blood band, and appears to been produced in 2003, 2 years after the 'toon. Please remove the pic from the article. If you could get a pic of Michael Stipe in the 'toon, I think that would be OK, preferably in one of the scenes described in the article.--Philcha (talk) 20:54, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

  It's a free image, so it doesn't need a non-free rationale. Reach Out to the Truth 14:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

  You're right, CC-BY-SA is a free as it gets. --Philcha (talk) 16:02, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Lead

•  Done Very concise, and covers all the main points. --Philcha (talk) 19:11, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
•  Done I did some small copyedits to avoid repetition. I hope you like them, as I'm about to passed the article as GA :-) --Philcha (talk) 14:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Result

I'm very pleased to say that this article meets the Good Article criteria: it provides good coverage, is neutral and well-referenced, is clearly-written, complies with the parts of WP:MOS required for a GA and uses appropriate images that have good captions and comply with WP's policies on images. Many thanks for the work you've put into this - it's been a pleasure working with you, and the article was fun. I'll do the paperwork in a few minutes. --Philcha (talk) 14:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

If you've got 2 or more articles through GA reviewers, please try to review as many articles as you have nominated for GA review. --Philcha (talk) 14:23, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

• • It's been a pleasure writing this article, your suggestions have been very helpful and I've learned a lot from you as a result. I'm looking forward to seeing you again sometime, until then, good luck! Thanks a bunch! :D

Sure, I'll get to reviewing when I have the time. Queenieacoustic (talk) 17:34, 17 March 2011 (UTC)