Talk:Hanpu/Archive 1

untitled comments

According to Canonical Records of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty, Wanyan Hanpu became a member of the Wanyan Tribe after he successfully stopped an inter-tribe conflict. An old woman of Wanyan Tribe got married with him and created the line of later Jurchen Jin Dynasty's emperors. However, it was his grand grand grand son Wanyan Shilu who became the chieftain of the Wanyan Tribe (《Canonical Records of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty》：「皇高祖太師」 where 太師 is the official name given by Khitan Liao Dynasty to Jurchen chieftains). Wanyan Hanpu, his son and his grand son (namely Wanyan Wulu and Wanyan Bahai), were merely regular members of the Wanyan Tribe. Wanyan Bahai's son is Wanyan Suike, who was an officer (孛堇, but not yet 太師) of his place according to Canonical Records of the Jurchen Jin Dynasty (皇五代祖孛堇). --Jiejunkong 23:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

surname

The source document doesn't say that his surname is "Kim" -- in fact, it says that the Jin royal family comes from the "靺鞨 clan" (mohe), but doesn't mention that Hanpu had a surname at all. There isn't any evidence that he was Korean speaking. All it says that he came from Korea/Goryo (the place), and then it talks about the Jurchen and the Bohai being of the same kind - so he could easily be a Chinese or Manchu-speaking Bohai Jurchen. Given that articles on all of his descendants are at their Chinese names, we should be consistent and move this to Shizu of Jin or Hanpu. -PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Korean historians recognize the ancestor of the Jin or Geum Empire to have been Gim Hambo (김함보). I will provide a source or piece of evidence that supports this statement by Korea. --74.232.227.167 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

deleting the article

entire article was based on DELIBERATE mistralations of chinese texts seen on the Jin Dynasty (1115–1234) talk page. it was clearly inserted by nationalist koreans intent on making it seem koreans ruled china, when the chinese editors blew their theory to bits on that talk page they scampered and resorted to creating articles like these, away from the important ones, but be assured, wikipedia is not a platform for korean nationalism and soapboxing.141.155.151.117 (talk) 03:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

entire article is totally unsourced. i suggest reading the talk page of the article i mentioned, and reading the comments i deleted, and i deleted them for sopaboxing which is against wiki rules and how the chinese editors immedietly disproved the korean nationalist theory.

the koreans desperately want to make it seem that they owned chinese, so they claim the jin dynasty royals were korean.

their deliberate mistranslations were disproved by chinese editors, so they moved their statements to articles like Hanpu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.151.117 (talk) 03:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not Korean. I do observe that the entire page is not garbage, since there was an actual person named Hanpu who was given a posthumous Jin royal name. However, the information that he is Korean is, I agree, entirely untrue. He was a Jürchen. Nonetheless, deleting the article is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If you want to delete it, I recommend notability, not NPOV. The NPOV can be fixed for this page, whereas notability can be argued. ناهد/(Nåhed) _speak! 03:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

wikisource has a bunch of text about this dude, none mention ANYTHINg about him being korean, so its permanetly removed. also kprideboi hasnt been on in like 6 months i doubt hell come back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.155.151.117 (talk) 03:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleting three sentences

I deleted the three following sentences:

• "Sources from the time period directly before the Mongol domination period have mentioned Hanpu as the descendant of the Silla Royal Family, King Gyeongsun in particular." Reason: this claim has been tagged as unreferenced since August 2007. It seems to derive from a mistranslation of a passage in the 18th-century text Manzhou yuanliu kao concerning the origin of the surname "Jin" 金.

• Original: 新罗王金姓则金之逺派 (Manzhou yuanliu kao 满洲源流考, ch. 7)
• Old translation proposed on the page on the Jin_Dynasty_(1115–1234) (the basis of the misinterpretation): "The name of Jin(金) was originated from the surname of Kings of Silla(新羅)"
• Actual meaning of the original (which makes the claim unfounded): "The surname 'Jin' [金, pronounced 'Kim' in Korean] of the Kings of Silla is a distant branch of the Jin (金) [dynasty]."

Manzhou yuanliu kao is not even a reliable source for studying the history of the Manchus (see Pamela Crossley, "Manzhou yuanliu kao and the Formalization of the Manchu Heritage, Journal of Asian Studies 46.4 [1987]: 761-790), let alone the pre-Jin Jurchen, so even well-translated claims from this source would not belong on this page. They would also constitute "original research."

• "Hanpu is often recorded as Wanyan Hanpu." The name "Wanyan Hanpu" already appears in the lead paragraph.
• "According to the History of Jin, this was as a result of his joining the Wanyan clan." Belongs nowhere.
• "Hanpu was a pure blooded Jurchen. " Reason for deletion: this meaningless claim was there to counter-balance the other claim (now deleted) that Hanpu was Korean. It has no purpose left.

--Madalibi (talk) 10:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

do not delete that he was a pure jurchen

deleting my statement that he was a pure jurchen is also grounds for deleting both sections on how he is "related" to the silla royal family which is totally unsourced, and no source has been found for tis nationalist rant for over a year. its obvious since the article was created by a korean they want to make him seem korean. if it were suddenly discovered that he invented the dildo, or penis pump, id doubt they would be so quick to claim hes korean again....

There is no DNA data analysis of him being pure Jurchen, where do you get his ethnicity was pure Jurchen. Where is a pure Jurchen theory coming from? I always though Jurchens were mixture of various Tungusic tribes. --Korsentry 03:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

Hi Korsentry. This was indeed a meaningless sentence. I have already deleted it for reasons I explained in the section called "Deleting three sentences" below. --Madalibi (talk) 04:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

He is a pure Korean. Some Chinese clam that he just visited korea and came back to Manchuria. That is not true. He came FIRST from Goryeo, but just from Goryeo.

金之始祖諱函普，初從高麗來(in the history of Jin(金史))

Hanpu wasn't Chinese or Korean

• There is no strong evidence to prove Hanpu was Korean or Chinese.
• Hanpu founded the Jin Dynasty and adopted (金) as his surname.
• Jin Dynasty clearly wasn't Chinese or Korean Dynasty.
• Jin state was formed because of Liao Khitan's ruthless expansions in Manchuria, forcing Jurchens to formed their own unity.
• There is no such pure Jurchen because Jurchens were very diverse tribes.
• Jurchens were originated from various Tungusic tribes as to Khitans were from Turkic tribes in East Asia and Mongols were from Nomadic tribes of Mongolia. They were clearly not Chinese or Koreans.

--Korsentry 05:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)