Talk:Grigori Rasputin/Archive 3

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Wild Speculation

The line, "A possible explanation would be that the cyanide in the cakes had vaporized due to the high temperatures during the baking in the oven." is wild speculation. The boiling point of sodium cyanide is 1496 Degree Celsius. That is a bit high for any kitchen oven.

an anonymous newbie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.40.218.20 (talk) 02:07, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Straying rather from the Talk page topic but for those who might not know, even were the cyanide added as a salt (sodium cyanide) the volatility of hydrogen cyanide would result in it vaporising as the acid. The boiling point of the salt itself is an irrelevance. Baking would undoubtedly drive the cyanide off. JohnHarris (talk) 11:15, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Nothing was baked. According to Yusupov and Puriskevich, Lazovert took off the tops of the petit fours and added the powder. If it was poison, we don't know. Taksen (talk) 13:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Main photo links to "Nicolas Cage Portraying Rasputin." - Any real photos of the man?

Alnasi (talk) 02:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean? It links to the image page. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 14:23, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Julian (o.s) vs Georgian (n.s) dates in 1916

By the use of a quite impressing calendar software called "Calendar Magic" and one of it's many tools, "CalendarComparison", I get 29.December 1916 russian/julian/O.S. date to equal 11.January 1917 western/gregorian/n.s. date. I also think that we could be more clear in cases of russian dates, and in this case mention something liket "Rasputin died on 29.December 1916, Russian date - which eaquals 11.January 1917". Objections ? Boeing720 (talk) 23:23, 21 February 2013 (UTC) Correction, I see now that article states that the murder of Rasputin was on 30.December - and Gregorian/N.S. calendary. But the source to this date is not very thrustworthy, I think. (and possibly missunderstood). I've read that Rasputin was assasinated at new years evening, Czar Russian New Years Evening, that was. I also red that Rasputin posted a letter to the Czar, who had gone to the front in an attempt to inspire his soldiers. In the letter Rasputin made two predictions - 1. "I will not see the sun rise in the new year 1917" 2. "If my killers are your.." (the Czar) "..enemies then you have nothing to fear, but if I'm killed by your friends, You will not live for longer than 18 months". (Both become true) I don't recall where I red this, but I'm quitesure that I have. And in any case (apart from the letter) was he killed around russian new years evening (possible a day before), but 30:th December 1916 O.S./Julian equals like I wrote 11:th January 1917 N.S./Gregorian. Difference in 1900s is Gregorian/N.S date = Julian/O.S + 13 days. So 17:th December only comes from a calculation error, I fear. 83.249.173.211 (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2013 (UTC)(Login error)Boeing720 (talk) 00:00, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

It's the Gregorian, not the Georgian as in your header, calendar we're talking about.

What you say about things you're sure you read somewhere - we cannot give this any attention unless you can find these sources and share them with us.

Everything I've read tells me he died on 16/17 December 1916 according to the Julian calendar. This translates to 29/30 December 1916 by the Gregorian calendar, because there was a 13-day gap at that time. To apply a further 13-day adjustment to make it 11/12 January 1917 is just wrong. Dead wrong.

Apart from that, I don't really understand the point of your post and find it very hard to follow. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:24, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Reference 22 to External page gives server error 404

Reference 22, which links to http://radzinski.ru/doc/books/rasputin gives server error 404 (page not found). Christian424 (talk) 02:18, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Cloister

Maybe add an internal link for the first occurrence of cloister? --82.170.113.123 (talk) 16:47, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Baptismal day

Dear Mr Dummies102, can I ask you a question? Where you baptized on the day you were born? Taksen (talk) 18:42, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

In Rasputin: The Untold Story by Joseph T. Fuhrmann (2012) the actual date of Rasputin's birth was published. Could someone take a look? Taksen (talk) 20:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I've tracked it down and amended the article accordingly. Born 9/21 January 1869, baptised 10/22 January.

Please desist with your abusive tone. There are no dummies here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

rasputins name

Rasputin's birth name was Grigory Efimovich and not Grigory Rasputin. He was given the nicknames Rasputin as a child as he wasn't well-behaved as a child and was caught smoking at the age of 5! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.216.150.7 (talk) 18:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

That's an oft-repeated story, but it has no foundation. Fuhrmann's book Rasputin: The Untold Story makes it clear his father's name was Efim Rasputin. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:15, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

In Robert K Massie's book Nicholas and Alexandra it states that Rasputin was born Gregory Efimovich, the son of Efim, and that Rasputin was a nickname, the Russian for dissolute. But it does not give a surname. Poshseagull (talk) 08:23, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Rasputin wasn't his nickname; don't believe everything that is printed, especially in the case of Rasputin. Please check and compare with other authors before you start a discussion.Taksen (talk) 12:51, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Taksen. In case that officious and patronizing comment was directed to me, I merely quoted Massie. The fact that he doesn't give a surname, merely a patronym, leads me to believe that the nickname theory is wrong. Poshseagull (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello Poshseagull, you were restarting a discussion, which proved to be untrue. Rasputin was not a nickname, but it does mean something in the Russian language. I did my best not to repeat all the nonsense and vague stories in the article, it would be three times longer. If, in the future, other people come up with .... , and ... wrote ... about Rasputin, I will be very busy replying. Sorry. Taksen (talk) 15:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

In a letter in the book by Massie, there's a reference to him styling himself Gregory Efimovich Rasputiin-Novykh. Poshseagull (talk) 19:12, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you very much, but Novykh is already mentioned in the article. It might look strange to you but hardly anybody refers to Rasputin in that way.Taksen (talk) 19:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

No need to thank me. But I can't find Novykh in the article. Please can you direct me? No, it doesn't seem strange to me. Thank you very much.Poshseagull (talk) 08:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

According to my sources it is not Novikh but Novich. As I don't speak Russian I can't help you with the difference between those two words. It seems to me Rasputin was the only one who used this double name. It looks more posh? Taksen (talk) 12:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

A what?

"Rasputin soon became a controversial figure, becoming involved in a paradigm of sharp political struggle..." Did the author mean "paradigm shift" perhaps? A paradigm is a pattern of thought. The word doesn't mean anything here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.3.95 (talk) 06:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• A link to paradigm shift may help.Taksen (talk) 21:16, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
• The link to paradigm is easier to understand.Taksen (talk) 21:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

29 or 30 December 1916?

According several sources Rasputin was taken from his apartment to Moika Palace after midnight. He most likely died on 30 December 1916 early in the morning.Taksen (talk) 11:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Claims of cyanide vaporizing

Removed a claim that the cyanide would have vaporized at the high temperature used for cooking the cakes. This has already been done and there is a talk page segment (Wild speculation) about it. The boiling points of potassium and sodium cyanide are 1625°C for KCN and 1496°C for NaCN. (Both of these are well over 2700°F.) The cyanide was almost certainly given as one of these salts.

HCN, hydrogen cyanide, boils at 25-26°C and is very volatile. It can be supplied in a liquid form (as in a cyanide pill) or as a solid impregnated with HCN (as in Zyklon B), but HCN is extremely dangerous to the handler and vaporizes rapidly. It may be that cyanide salts react to form HCN in the weakly acidic environment of a cake batter, but without literature support that is speculation. The "no thanks, I can't have sugar" explanation seems by far more plausible.

Roches (talk) 10:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Sunday or Monday?

In Russia they were using the Julian Calendar until 1918, see Old Style and New Style dates, so according to the Julian calender 29 June 1914 was a Sunday, see Common_year_starting_on_Wednesday. According to the Gregorian calendar the 29th was a Monday. It is not clear Rasputin went home from church or from the post office.Taksen (talk) 10:29, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

• It is hard to believe User:Emeraldcityserendipity knows the answer to what seems to be a question of debate among specialists. He does not come up with references and seems to have no knowledge of the Julian calendar.Taksen (talk) 11:43, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I have extensive knowledge of the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The dates provided in the subsequent section about Rasputin's murder are clearly Gregorian (there is little dispute that Rasputin was murdered Friday the 29th or Saturday the 30th of December 1916 (which would have been Friday the 16th or Saturday the 17th December Julian style)); therefore, it stood to reason to assume that the use of the date June 29, 1914 was Gregorian as well, which would have made it a Monday. If in fact it was Sunday June 29 Julian style, a note ought to be made that that date would have been Gregorian date July 12.

• I am not sure if you are right. Rasputin seems to have met the tsar and his wife in the capital on 30 June, 1914. Then he took the train to Siberia. I will check it again.
• When the Russian police made a report of the crime, it was dated 29 June 1914. See Fuhrmann (2013) Rasputin: The Untold Story, p. 126. It would be very strange and not very likely they used N.S. in the year 1914.Taksen (talk) 10:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
• Also according Maria Rasputin it was on a Sunday afternoon. See Colin Wilson (1964) Rasputin and the fall of the Romanovs, p. 154.

This reference and book needs authors

Who are these awarding authors of A Miscellany of Murder: From History and Literature to True Crime and Television By The Monday Murder Club page 154? In this way it's hard to believe the reference is thrustworthy.Taksen (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Grammatical error in 2nd paragraph

Elder Nikolay Guryanov is now dead, so the sentence, "In Russia he is nowadays viewed favorably by many people and clerics, among them Elder Nikolay Guryanov" is no longer grammatically correct. 24.90.73.58 (talk) 23:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)NachshonR

Teetotalism?

One of the first article sections uses this word. It ought to be linked to an article on that subject! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.227.15.253 (talk) 07:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

By deleting the size of the pictures, the article became in my point of view very messy, more amateurish. It gives me a headache, just looking at it. Is that what you want? I hope others agree, so we can change it back. There is nothing wrong with size 200px. Thx. 22:03, 21 November 2013 (UTC)Taksen (talk)

Dear Hohum, you have not changed much in the text, it is obvious you are not an expert; it takes a while. Some of your changes look ok, but, I don't like your lay-out at all. Mine is more balanced. It looks sophisticated, 1.2 upright, but the outcome is messy. Please propose your next changes and start a discussion. I spent ten months studying this subject and as a typesetter I do know something about lay-out. I don't care about a Wikipedia rule, which makes many articles look messy. Thx22:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC)Taksen (talk) 22:39, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

If you want to change the default size of an image, use the upright command to do so per WP:IMGSIZE policy. This allows people to use their own image size preferences instead of forcing everyone to what you want. 200 px is upright=0.9 if you must have that size. Not everyone has the same screen resolution / size as you. We try to cater to the widest variety. Also, putting all the images on one side will mean they will stack up and be completely misaligned with the supporting content if users have a high resolution wide screen.

Your misplaced condescending attitude is also not helpful. (Hohum ^@) 02:29, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia about 4.000 people each day read this article. No one complained about the lay-out. How come? Please explain. I don't believe you have a serious argument. The rules became more important than the readability. Why do you think newspapers have small columns? Could it be readability? You complain about my attitude, but changing the the article heavily without any explanation on the talk-page, as if everybody has all the knowledge about the thousands of rules and exceptions, is an accepted attitude in between. I work in four different Wikipedia's; the rules differ and the German and the English have the worst lay-out, because of this rule. It has to do with some - in between old-fashioned - German law, in which it was accepted to use thumbs on internet without legal consequences. In the English Wikipedia this German case law was "imported". Please tell your colleagues, who like this rule also.Taksen (talk) 06:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

I changed the size of all the pictures, now the messy impression is gone. I moved one picture up and one down so another problem was solved. I added a new picture to fill the last paragraph. Without pictures the lines in Wikipedia almost doubled in size then custom. Articles need as much pictures as possible to solve this problem.

Add a typical typewriter pitch of 10-12 characters per inch and that would lead to documents with widths of between 72 and 90 characters, depending on the size of the margins. Even so, I still prefer 80 character wide code as it it makes it easier to compare three revisions of a file side-by-side without either scrolling sideways (always bad) or wrapping lines (which destroys code formatting). See [1].

Also Wordpress promotes this rule. Taksen (talk) 08:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Assassination section

The "assassination" section is interspersed with colorful details that have no purpose other than to heighten the mood of the writing. Such flourishes do not, I think, belong in an encyclopedia. For example:

• "A gramophone in the study seems to have been playing the Yankee Doodle, when Rasputin wearing a blue embroidered silk shirt and his beaver fur coat entered the palace." - very picturesque, but does not deliver factual information
• "It is said the Kadet politician Vasily Maklakov had supplied enough poison to kill five men, but he denies this." - this isn't a legal trail or a debate. What is the consensus viewpoint? Also, by whom is this said?
• "Rasputin fell onto a bearskin." - Why do we need this detail?
• "So it would look like Rasputin had left the palace in the early morning." - is this a sentence fragment, or a summary of the narrative? Either way, it's out of place.
• "Rasputin opened his eyes and lunged at him, although he was severely hit in his liver and would have died within twenty minutes" - This sentence seems to contradict itself. If he was alive at that time, then he couldn't have been dead within 20 minutes of the shot. Also, whose account is this?

I could go on, but I think this should be enough to explain my point. Remember, the purpose of the article is to deliver factual information, not tell a fun story. This is especially true in this case, when the story in question is so historically murky. I have re-added the cleanup template, as I don't have time to do extensive editing right now. Please do not remove it without addressing these issues. Hope this helps! Augurar (talk) 05:20, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Reply

Hello Augurar, there are two stories on the Assassination, one by Youssopov and one by Pourichkevich; their details differ, so some of the details in the lemma have to do with this discussion. Then there is the view of his daughter Maria, and Rasputin's secretary who do not think Rasputin ate anything sweet. It is very likely Youssopov made up a story to hide what really happened in the basement. But his story is also what many but not everybody believe. It goes around in many movies, documentaries, articles and books.

It is very complicated subject, I can assure you. Besides I am Dutch and English is not my mother tongue. It takes a lot of time to find out which stories are made up (gossip), and which are more reliable. I already left out many details. Did you compare this paragraph with what was there, let say a year ago? In between I will ask around as you don't have time. Taksen (talk) 08:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC) The article became twice as long but has four times more references since February 2012 when I started here.Taksen (talk) 18:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)