Talk:Gordon Holmes (suffragette)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Edwininlondon (talk · contribs) 11:40, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Although I am not an expert on the subject, I am happy to review this against the GA criteria. Before I get started properly, I noticed that there are a few paragraphs in the body of the article without any source at the end. Can you add some? Edwininlondon (talk) 11:40, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@Paul Carpenter: Hi Paul, just checking if this is on your radar. Edwininlondon (talk) 17:16, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hercelin: Hi Hercelin, I noticed you are a main contributer of the Beatrice Gordon Holmes article. I am keen to review its Good Article Nomination. Are you willing and able to make more contributions? It unfortunately seems the nominator Paul Carpenter is not responsive. In the past I have had a few cases of reviewing an article nominated by someone who turned out to have abandoned Wikipedia or the article, so before I get started I just wanted to know if my efforts are going to be in vain or not. Would you be ok to act upon my comments? Thanks, Edwininlondon (talk) 19:48, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@EdwininLondon: Hi Edwin - apologies for the delayed response. I'd be glad to help. Any questions, pointers, or requests - fire away.

@Hercelin:Great! Before I get started properly, I noticed that there are a few paragraphs in the body of the article without any source at the end. Can you add some? Edwininlondon (talk) 15:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Another thing to get started with is the name: I found here [1] that she preferred to go by the masculine name Gordon. This is quite significant. Ideally we find out when this started, so we can put it in the right section. Edwininlondon (talk) 18:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Hercelin:Sorry, I completely have forgotten about this article. And so, it seems, have you. Shall we abandon this or are you still up for improving things? I'd like to see sources added to the end of all paragraphs that currently have none, as a simple first sign of commitment before I do a proper review. Let's say June 7 is the date by which we go ahead or abandon, does that sound reasonable? Edwininlondon (talk) 08:22, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Edwininlondon:Don't worry, I'm on it. I've got some time over the next couple of days - I'll ping you when it's ready for you to look over, but should be OK before next week at the latest. Hercelin (talk) 14:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Edwininlondon:So, having now tracked down a full copy of Holmes' autobiography, I've been able to implement some fairly large revisions (and additions) to the article. There are still some loose threads I'd like to pursue - for example, I've found a couple of bloggers claiming that Holmes considered herself a lesbian, but as of yet I've been unable to find such a claim in a primary source (especially because it doesn't appear in her autobiography, even in the section about homosexuality...) - but I'm gonna have to come back to them at a later date. I've also reflected that she never used Beatrice as her name (at least as an adult), but the one place I haven't changed it is the page title - not sure how to. Over to you my dude. Hercelin (talk) 12:28, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, great you have found the time to work on the article. Here is my high level assessment:

• sources

Have a look at WP:PRIMARY. The article leans too heavily on her autobiography. See if you can find alternative sources. Are there any more obituaries apart from the Times? I have requested access to newspaperarchive.com. Do you have access already? If not, you can request it here: https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/ This may help in retrieving more contemporary secondary sources.

• name

There is some guidance on names at WP:NCP: "Generally, use the most common format of a name used in reliable sources." I would say here that because of the Times obituary's title I would go for renaming the article Gordon Holmes.

I have changed an article title in the past, and I remember it being tricky. Shall I do it?

• lead

No need to use references here. Everything in the lead should be in the body, where the references live. It's also a little on the short side. Ideally there is a bit more. But perhaps we should look at the lead once we agree the rest of the article is top notch.

• more name stuff

Start the lead with Beatrice Gordon Holmes (30 September 1884 – 21 November 1951) was a British ...

The rule is that a person's full name is given in bold and no need to repeat the article title, even if the full name is different from the article title (as I was told when when working on Jacob van Ruisdael).

The first section after the lead should then start with the full name as well: Beatrice Gordon Holmes was born on 30 September 1884 ...

I'll do a more in-depth review once you have had time to work on the above. Let me know if you need help. Happy to help. Edwininlondon (talk) 09:52, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

@EdwininLondon:I'm so sorry - I didn't get a notification for your comments here, and I'm only just stumbling across them now after noticing your recent edits to the article. Thank you for your edits (including changing the article name), and for these comments - I was concerned about the reliance on the autobiography, so have tried to add some more independent sources where possible, and intend to keep adding them where I can. I have personal subscriptions to the British Newspaper Archive and Ancestry.co.uk, which have been helpful, but it looks like I need to get my edit numbers up elsewhere to be eligible for access to more databases through the Wikipedia Library. The BNA is slanted heavily towards local newspapers, so a lot of my searches for eg more obituaries have only turned up multiple syndicated versions of what is clearly wire copy. I intend to get access to larger broadsheet/magazine publisher archives at some point, and find additional verification for many of the things currently only sourced to the autobiography, although I'm unsure how long it'll take/whether this is at a stage where others need to balance out my own blind spots? Hercelin (talk) 16:44, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Outsider Opinion

Greetings folks. I clicked on this review while browsing the GA nominations page, and, ironically, have stumbled upon one which seems to be trapped in limbo. If I may be frank with you, and without making the least indictment on anyone involved, I believe that this article not passing within 3 months of reviewing says much of what is to be said about it.

The fact that the major problem of the sources (consisting mostly of passages from the autobiography) has not been addressed yet seems to point to one conclusion: the article does not appear ready for GA status at this point.

The decision is, of course, up to the extremely patient @Edwininlondon:, but I would advise failing the article, leaving a list of improvements, and making another nomination at a later date. Cheers, and thanks for the investment from all involved. Horsesizedduck (talk) 21:35, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Horsesizedduck: for your view. I shall close the review and make some of the edits myself. Hopefully one day it can be brought back at GAN. Edwininlondon (talk) 11:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC)