Talk:Ghetto house

Definition

Hey pretty correct! I ll use this definition for my personal use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.198.0.93 (talk) 09:43, 12 July 2003‎

Name

the more popular name for it would be juke music or juk. I live in Chicago by the way:)

not sure where the name came from but if i know that it came from house music hence: Jacking=Juking — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.69.160.42 (talk) 11:45, 18 November 2005

Jukebox ? 惑乱 分からん 10:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Footwork

Hey by the way I would not consider Swamp 81 a footwork-label. they only released the "footcrab" ep by addison groove aka headhunter. They used to be known as an ultra-deep dubstep label, releasing kryptic minds and the like. just because they bring out two footwork tracks it doesn't make them a footwork label. also since footwork has gained that much media attention in the last few months i would not consider it an untouched genre anymore. -- 93.128.7.49 (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Pictures of Chicago

They seem a bit unnecessary to me. 128.243.236.10 (talk) 17:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Juke/Footwork need their own article(s)

I would argue that Juke and Footwork need their own article(s), or that this article needs to be renamed. Juke/Footwork is starting to break into the mainstream and is almost never referred to as being a sub-genre of or part of Ghetto House. They definitely have their own defined sounds and should be documented accordingly. While I would argue that I have enough knowledge to contribute to such an article, I'm not an experienced enough wiki user to go about creating it. Is there anyone else who agrees? 82.21.164.134 (talk) 21:03, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The way WP notability works, the J/F section here would have to have enough reliable sources to support its own article, and ghetto house is hurting enough for sources as it is. Let's focus on getting the information in this article actually sourced and reputable and before we talk about splitting them. czar ♔ 21:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the first poster. The current Juke/Footwork scene is in no way connected to Ghetto House, and having it filed under that heading is thus incorrect. Now that the UK/Japan has latched onto Footwork, it needs to be represented as a proper genre. And i should know, i DJ/produce/run a Footwork/Juke record label :-) 82.40.141.76 (talk) 02:29, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

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Ghetto house vs. Gangsta house

Hi I appreciate your note that gangsta house and g house are different genres. But I am curious why you did not edit out g house altogether from being related to Chicago house. There are no cultural or etymology connections between the tech house variant and Chicago's ghetto house. Quintessential Ghetto House tracks like Jody Finch's "Jack Your Big Booty" date back to 1986, while g house is a new term that is not tied to anyone from that culture. Not that you were the one that added this information, but just letting you know that it goes deeper than your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostwhip (talk • contribs) 04:24, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ghostwhip, yeah, I'm also convinced it's two different genres. However, based on the history of edits, there already has been an arguing with edit war on the subject, and given that ghetto house is incorrectly called g-house in some sources. And because some of such disagreeing users could bring G-house back on day, I've decided as a compromise to leave it that way, clearly stating that it is a misnomer. So it goes deeper than your edit as well :) Solidest (talk) 10:00, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ghostwhip 2 different genres? Seriously? If you do know as I have said before, it has kinda changed since it’s origins, but still adhere has the Hip Hop and House elements. Tech house is another example, so would you call what Tech house now is 2 different genres? or would you call it “D-Tech house” for “Deep Tech House”? StokenDank (talk) 14:37, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

The 2010s gangsta house has nothing to do with the 2010s ghetto house (that is almost just the same as 1990s one), these are completely different genres, that share different origins. If ghetto came after hip hop/electro scene and mostly exist on higher bpms with signature 4/4 line, then gangsta house rather came after deep tech fusion and sounding closer to Brazillian bass on lower bpms. Although gangsta house sometimes crosses with ghetto house - that's where confusion coming from (as well as from a long-existing erroneous article on wikipedia). But if you open the most popular sets of what is called g-house on youtube or wherever - they simply have nothing to do with the original ghetto house. But I also think that 'g-house' can be applied to both genres, even if it causes further misunderstanding. It's just already being used like this. But calling genres the same because they share the same origins (do you mean Chicago house? or hip hop elements that can be traced to 5+ house subgenres?) is just wrong. Unless you have a superficial understanding, and if it's so, just check ghetto house list vs. gangsta house list Solidest (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

If you type up G-House there is still videos that show older artists, it’s because, like Tech House, it comes up with the newer artists than the old ones. As I said too, the genre has changed over time. Tech House now sounds different to how it sounded 2 decades ago, as does Ghetto House. G-House still stands to me and with my recourses as a name for Ghetto House. I’m talking about both Chicago house and Hip Hop elements, I have came across some G-House artists which have that Chicago House sound, other times it’s less evident to other hits, but the Hip Hop elements are clearly there. G-House came in at 2015 and “Gangsta House” only came in around as of around 2019 which is later when it came around and the sound somewhat changed abit if you can hear from that timeline. There is a genre called ‘Funk carioca’, it’s a South American genre and ‘Sambass’ in could’ve came from there. But do you hear any origins from Tech House still being used or heard? If so how and where? Did it change in time? Btw, I have a good understanding, which is why I am telling you this here. If you would like an example, I can send one StokenDank (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

“G-House” discussion

I have tried to write on Solidest’s talk page but it got removed, so I’m going to write here. Ghostwhip here thinks G-House is ‘not the same genre’ I beg to differ, when the Tech House scene came around, it started in Detroit and later became distinctively different, and like Ghetto House, it changed over time, if Ghostwhip here can say ‘There are no sources of Chicago guys mentioning g house or gangster house.’… Okay Ghostwhip, show me the Detroit guys mentioning the ‘Deep Tech, D-Tech’? Genre if you have one. I do have sources here that do mention ‘G-House’ being ‘Ghetto House’ but again Ghostwhip had to remove it, because to my guess he thinks he’s playing “Mr. Right”. Why I say they are the same and why “G-House” is just another name for Ghetto House is because the genre takes on the same characteristics as Ghetto House does, “the "4-to-the-floor" kick drum or beat-skipping kick drums, along with Roland 808 and 909 synthesized tom-tom sounds, the use of analogue synths, and short, slightly dirty sounding (both sonically and lyrically) vocals samples, often repeated in various ways.”, as it is written,

Here are my sources:

1. https://www.insomniac.com/music/dr-fresch-bijou-bring-the-ghetto-house-vibes-on-revelation-for-insomniac-records/

2. https://kulturehub.com/julius-jetson-sanity-interview/

3. https://theelectrichawk.com/bijou-and-dr-fresch-get-back/

4. https://edm.com/music-releases/nukid-respect-prescription-records

5. https://www.internationaldjmag.com/sirus-hood.html

6. https://dancingastronaut.com/2018/05/ghastly-dr-fresch-join-forces-rise/

Number 1 & 6 says “Future Ghetto” and “Future Ghetto House” so it could also be another term. StokenDank (talk) 11:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Response: why this appears as cultural appropriation

Stokendank by listing unreliable blog sources from the disconnected scene you are missing the point. People are also trying to remove "Chicago" from the introduction, which countless sources refer to here. Let me lay it on you. I have worked with ghetto house guys from Chicago over the years, I have cleared samples, I have released records with them, I am myself on a record with Parris Mitchell. I am closer to the scene than the unknown blog writers you are referencing. But you wouldn't know any of this because you are in a disconnected scene (really not trying to put myself into this, but you have forced my hand). Nobody in the ghetto house scene refers to their music as g house that I am aware of, and this seemed to be confirmed when I posted this publicly (e.g., DJ Flint "what the fu*k is gangter house"). And yet, yall think this is OK, and are trying to edit Chicago culture and the city itself out. Let me break down all the ways in which this wrong..

Why it is disconnected:

Stokendank main point is that g house and ghetto house take the same sonic characteristics, so let's start there. To everyone reading this I encourage you to listen to a ghetto house track on Dance Mania, or new ghetto house inspired music like Disco Nihilist, Vin Sol, etc and compare that to say Dr Fresch who he cites three times. How on earth does trappy-EDM festival-brostep-tech house stuff sound anything like ghetto house? But this is really the tip of the iceberg. Some of the documentaries listed here spell it out pretty well, for instance, 25 Year of Ghetto House: From Jack to Juke. Ghetto house is a cultural affair that goes beyond just the music. It is unlikely the g house producers Stokendank cites have ever known any jack/juke/footworkers, they probably don't even own a single Dance Mania record. Yes they--like everyone else--would be familiar with TR-909 sounds that are loaded by default into Ableton, but actually I am yet to hear a TR909 sound, and they probably don't know what an RZ-1 or DR660, DR880, etc is, let alone use said gear (shall I list tracks ghetto house tracks that used such machines?).

Meanwhile, outlets like Clone continue to sell a lot of ghetto house records, and certainly do not make the mistake of confusing the two terms as they understand the difference between appropriation and appreciation. In fact, there are lots of artists today that actually sound like ghetto house (e.g., DJ Haus, Disco Nihilist, DJ Boneyard, Vin Sol, Strip Steve, etc.,), unlike the g house music Stokendank cited. And yet, these newer artists that make that ghetto house sound today would typically say that their music is "ghetto house inspired," because they show respect for it. Just because there is a mainstream-industry dominant culture that uses the term "g house," does not mean it is connected, let alone the successor of ghetto house. As they are removing Chicago altogether from the introduction, I am not sure what the intentions are here.

Here's a direct quote from Dr Fresch from an interview that was cited here, who appears to be Stokendank main source as he cites him in three of his sources.

"Now, it’s called gangster house. Originally, it was called ghetto house, started with DJ Assault and some of the guys from the ’90s. It was faster, almost like juke. So, I heard DJ Assault when I was in high school in 2005."

For starters, DJ Assault is from Detroit and is a quintessential ghettotech artist that even DJ'd on Detroit's New Dance Show in the show's later days. As important as he is, he had nothing to do with the birth of ghetto house that happened years before he released his first record. In other words, the very guys that are causing this confusion are not well-educated on the matter. How are you going to cite these guys over authorities on the matter like Ray Barney, Waxmaster, etc., who lay out the process of branching off from house music some 20+ years ago and were involved in this process? Moreover, yall know there are still ghetto house producers producing this music in Chicago, what gives them the right to tell them what their music is called?

In another interview Dr Fresch lists his favourite eras as the blog house scene in 2008, and the grunge metal scene in 1994--which is interesting as 1994 was the time when ghetto house music really took off in Chicago. And yet, he is supposed to be the key authority and on this matter and the embodiment of what has become of ghetto house?

"Now it's called gangster house?" No, now there are terms like g house / gangster house that came out of the mainstream EDM scene, but ghetto house is still ghetto house, and remains underground and tied to Chicago culture as it has always been. Just because cultural appropriation has happened before does not mean it is OK and that it should continue. Even though I am probably a lot closer to Chicago culture than Stokendank is, I don't pretend I am in this culture, let alone attempt to usurp the culture for my own gains. There is a difference between music appreciation and appropriation and taking a culture into one's own without permission is the dictionary definition of cultural appropriation.

These g house guys can do their thing, and they should, they can even create their own wikipedia page, but should not conflate it, let alone usurp it, with the lineage of culture that branched off and developed from house independently before some of them were born. It didn't come from ghetto house just because a white suburban producer once listened to a ghettotech artist and incorrectly thought that was ghetto house. And just because there are hip-hop and house elements does not mean the two are interchangeable--again it ignores decades of cultural development that occurred in a separate community. Still, it is easy to see the misnomer, as other contributors have already mentioned. The scenes are clearly separate. Are you going to tell footwork producers who were raised on ghetto house that the umbrella term for what they do is now encompassed in something called g house which is dominated by white industry guys they have never heard of? Are you going to tell DJ Slugo that the music he is making today is called something else because a blogger from a completely separate festival scene in Arizona says so? I am not going to comment on Stokendank "d tech" example, cause I have never heard of that, I'll stick to what I know. But cultural appropriation, or what Derrick Carter referred to as "cultural smudging," happens all the time.

Definitions:

Here's where the term ghetto house come from, obviously these definitions can't be carried over to the g house artists Stokendank cites, for the same reasons why the term g house doesn't work as being from Chicago, which is probably why they are trying to edit Chicago out:

“it’s sorta like house music, but it’s more in the raw of what we see every day” – Waxmaster

“it was tracks by guys who lived in the ghetto, so they [the stores] would call in and say ‘give me some of those ghetto tracks.’” – Ray Barney

Current definition of Cultural Appropriation on Wikipedia: "Cultural appropriation is the adoption of an element or elements of one culture or identity by members of another culture or identity. This can be controversial when members of a dominant culture appropriate from minority cultures."

"Cultural appropriation refers to the taking of intellectual property, traditional knowledge, cultural expressions, or artifacts without permission."

The problem with citing blogs:

Blog writers are not experts and they are falling victim to reiterating this misnomer through its cyclical use. Are these blog writers Stokendank cited authorities on the matter? Have they written anything about this topic outside of the article or interview at hand? Do they have credentials? Gavin Mueller who I cited is a well-respected cultural studies professor, has peer-reviewed doi articles and whose name is cited often, e.g., on Wu Tang Clan Wikipedia. When not listing primary sources we can at least engage in some form of academic integrity. I believe the article Stokendank cites regarding Sirus Hood reflects this discussion. The artist never claimed to be g house directly, this was done by the writer of the music blog. This stuff happens all the time, and is further driven by the fact that g house appears as an abbreviation for ghetto house.

The Daft Punk example: Appropriation VS Appreciation:

Maybe we should revisit the Daft Punk / Dance Mania connection for the sake of historicization. Daft Punk's "Teachers," lists all their influences over a track that was inspired by Waxmaster's "Ghetto Shout Outs." They shouted out their influences or "teachers," which included DJ Deeon, Paul Johnson, DJ Milton, Waxmaster and other guys from Dance Mania on the track. This is fine because it is appreciation, not appropriation. Daft Punk never even referred to themselves as ghetto house, just influenced by it. See the difference? Even though they became mainstream and had the industry behind them they were able to engage with their influences in a respectful manner.

Overall, if it can be proven that ghetto house artists say that ghetto house is now called g house and came from ghetto house, then it is not appropriation. But that needs to be proved from an excerpt not from the dominant culture. As far as I can tell, it looks like appropriation until this can be achieved.

This is bigger than just a name. This is a synthetic editing of one culture into another. And yes, I realize this is likely too far gone to be fixed. But here it is for the record. The culture vultures have landed again.

Credible sources that back up what I am saying here:

1. Howard, Karen. "Equity in Music Education: Cultural Appropriation Versus Cultural Appreciation—Understanding the Difference." Sage https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0027432119892926?journalCode=mejc

2. Mueller, Gavin. "Ghettotech and Ghetto House." https://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/grovemusic/view/10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.001.0001/omo-9781561592630-e-1002256635 (peer reviewed / academic DOI, not a random EDM music blog, Mueller lists the distinct cultural differences between Detroit's Ghettotech and Chicago's Ghetto House.

3. "Ghetto Tracks: Ghetto House Documentary." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUJl5__NDkA&t=7s (Chock full of interviews / primary sources from ghetto house producers 1998, includes etymology link from Ray Barney)

4. "From Jack to Juke: 25 Years of Ghetto House" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZEnF15fLNM (Primary sources illustrating the deeper cultural connections in the music, including dance, call and response, etc that is unique to Chicago). Note that this is newish and doesn't mention any of the artists you mentioned or the term g house, gangsta house, etc. If g house came from ghetto house, why wouldn't this be mentioned in a documentary that interviews 50+ authorities on the matter? Wouldn't g house already being establishing itself in the context of this release, rather than the development from ghetto house going in the exact opposite direction? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostwhip (talk • contribs) 09:29, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

5. Cliff, Aimee. "Derrick Carter Speaks On The “Cultural Smudging” Of House Music." http://www.thefader.com/2014/12/24/derrick-carter-on-the-cultural-smudging-of-house

6. McDonnell, John. "Scene and heard: The Ghetto House Revival." https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2008/nov/03/scene-heard-ghetto-house-revival. (Provides background context of misuse of genre identification as it relates to ghetto house. In comparison to today's discussion, this doesn't seem as heated.)

Ghostwhip (talk) 01:59, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Cultural Appropriation

“Listing unreliable blog sources from the disconnected scene you are missing the point. People are also trying to remove "Chicago" from the introduction, which countless sources refer to here.” - Most if not all are sources from websites and articles with pages characterizing on about G-House and Ghetto House.

“I have worked with ghetto house guys from Chicago over the years, I have cleared samples, I have released records with them, I am myself on a record with Parris Mitchell. I am closer to the scene than the unknown blog writers you are referencing.“ - this here is not a source of material but “Original Research”.

“to be confirmed when I posted this publicly (e.g., DJ Flint "what the fu*k is gangter house")” - Do you have a source for this claim or is this original research too?

Connection

Dance Mania closed in 1999, but yes it is still a good source, the thing is though is the sound of “Ghetto House” had changed over the years and “G-House” came up which mostly refers to “Ghetto House” setup and characteristics unlike “Bass House” and the now confused ‘in-between’ or interchangeable term “Gangsta House” which came later. An example like Brothers Dreamers - Dirty Killer (Original Mix)”, “Dr. Fresch & BIJOU - Get Back”, “Malaa - Fade” are great examples of G-House. Cajmere - It's Time for the Percolator is characteristically alike of that in time signature and beat format.

“How on earth does trappy-EDM festival-brostep-tech house stuff sound anything like ghetto house?” - Yes, it has some late trap music characteristics, Electronic Dance Music (EDM) is the overall genre of music when Ghetto House too is under and Hip Hop which is part of it’s origins which includes trap as a Hip Hop subgenre, Hip Hop is not only a genre of music but too a culture in itself, Brostep is hardly even a genre that’s in it and is barely listenable and not part of the characteristics of the genre because it is more Dubstep sounding but with a more higher sounding pitch, G-House and Ghetto House in this case have more a lower sounding pitch and Yes, the Tech House characteristics which have later crossed into the sound. “25 Year of Ghetto House: From Jack to Juke” is more referring to going from Chicago ‘Jackin House’ to then the genre ‘Juke House’, which is a subgenre of Ghetto House which most of the artists you are talking about have sources to “Juke House” and partially Ghetto House, but more Juke, besides Juke House does take up most of the Ghetto House article.

“Stokendank cites have ever known any jack/juke/footworkers” - because they’re subgenres of Ghetto House?

“they probably don't even own a single Dance Mania record.” - I see you have to disparage and quickly point a finger at someone, I have listened to Dance Mania records before but it sounds as if you like to point out I haven’t which gives you a further boost to boast about.

“In fact, there are lots of artists today that actually sound like ghetto house (e.g., DJ Haus, Disco Nihilist, DJ Boneyard, Vin Sol, Strip Steve, etc.,), unlike the g house music Stokendank cited.” - Prossibly they’re still working on the original wave of the genre perhaps and it would be good to source them too.

“And yet, these newer artists that make that ghetto house sound today would typically say that their music is "ghetto house inspired," because they show respect for it.” - True, I do have respect for the originators, but you’re sure too they’re not “Juke House” artists?

“Now, it’s called gangster house.” - I never said it was and it became a later interchangeable term that some got confused with “Bass House”

“Ghetto house, and remains underground and tied to Chicago culture as it has always been.” - It always has been and always will to you? Ofcourse it is in Chicago culture, but knowing that the Culture in Chicago has changed overtime as does the sound.

“Even though I am probably a lot closer to Chicago culture than Stokendank is” - again disparaging someone.

I like how you have to add references to quotes, like Daft Punk, even though these artists don’t play Ghetto House or G-House but you place them in anyway but I respect that.

Since most of the “Juke House” subgenre is mostly to what you are referring to, maybe it should have it’s own page with more artists there, after all it does sound like you’re here to more captivated in removing sources outright than checking to see how it could or couldn’t work out, after all somewhere down the line someone from Chicago could’ve thought “What can I do to make it sound… different” and it then fused with the sound of some tech house to create another wave for the Ghetto House genre after all the origins are the same, Electronic Dance Music (EDM) and Hip Hop, which another too add trap is a hip hop genre even though EDM trap split from it, Footwork later too had changed in sound but you didn’t get into that which I’m astounded because it had took on later the sound of trap snares and kicks.

Here’s a source you should look at Ghostwhip:

What Happened To Tech House? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74wlkDluLN0

StokenDank (talk) 05:38, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Response to Response Cultural Appropriation As I said, I realize this is an uphill battle, cultural appropriation will continue to happen. In my opinion this discussion speaks for itself and is pointless to respond to again. Congrats to Stokendank for upholding cultural appropriation, removing the history of Chicago from this distinct and entrenched cultural phenomenon, usurping this culture away from Chicago and Black people to feed a cultureless, white-washed industry, somehow dictated by blog writers that are not versed in cultural studies or the history of the music. The power dynamics between people with money, power and influence over those that are without it is clearly on display. It is one thing to do this unknowingly, but it is another to be hand-fed the academic discourse on the matter (see doi sources listed above) and go on to follow course regardless. For the record he/she/g house artist(?) is still yet to cite a single academic source or directly disprove that this is not cultural appropriation, claiming instead that it doesn't matter if people from Chicago approve of this hijacking. Now excuse me while I listen to Underground Resistance on repeat.Ghostwhip (talk) 20:27, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

References