Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche/Archive 15

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Nietzsche as German Philosopher (The "German" Issue...Yes...Again)

1. The Issue At Hand: On August 1st, user Pedant17 again attempted to edit the line identifying Nietzsche as a German philosopher. He has argued that the label "German philosopher" is vague, simplistic, and misleading to the point that it should not be used in our lead. As of August 2, 2008 he has not offered any good sources, scholarly or otherwise, which support his point of view.

2. "Nietzsche and the German Tradition": Pedant17 has pointed to the essay collection Nietzsche and the German Tradition to support his point of view. I have the book sitting next to me, and I fail to see what part of the book supports Pedant17's view. In fact, in his essay Nietzsche as German Philosopher, Thomas J. Brobjer writes:

The claim that Nietzsche was not a German Philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers...BUT WITH REGARD TO THE SECOND GROUP OF LESSER KNOWN GERMAN PHILOSOPHERS THIS CLAIM HAS ESSENTIALLY NO VALIDITY...NIETZSCHE, IN SPITE OF HIS CRITIQUE, WAS A GERMAN PHILOSOPHER, SPOKE AND WROTE IN GERMAN, AND LIVED IN A GERMAN CULTURAL CLIMATE (Page 41).

Unless Pedant17 is willing to demonstrate good faith by suppling us with reliable sources to support his opinion, I feel it is time to seek some sort of formal arbitration to prevent him from making this same edit every few months.Fixer1234 (talk) 02:09, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

There was an inconclusive request for comment on his behavior back in March 2008; both positions said it would be best to seek a request for comment on the content dispute instead, asking for a ruling on his behavior only if he continues to flout that first stage of arbitration. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 16:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The request for comment proved a red-herring: a diversion into (unwarranted) allegations of editing-behavior rather than addressing the matter of how to characterize Nietzsche in the lead of his Wikipedia article. I do not regard it as a floutable "first stage of arbitration" on the substantive issue... though it did emerge that no consensus exists -- a consensus which may now emerge with further discussion here. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Brobjer's comments establish: 1: a "claim that Nietzsche was not a German Philosopher" exists. 2: The ingrained mantra that states "N. was a German philosopher" runs deep and broad. 3: Scholars can define their own views of Germanness, but pleading that N. "spoke and wrote in German, and lived in a German cultural climate" does not address the Wikipedia-specific guideline which states that the opening paragraph should give "3. Nationality ... In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable" and should not highlight ethnicity: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." -- Since Nietzsche held no citizenship when he became notable, the lead paragraph should reflect this. The use of the German language and the existence of a "German cultural climate" (whatever that means) do not make Nietzsche a German citizen. We can discuss those matters in depth elsewhere -- though a mention of the German language in the lead seems to me entirely appropriate. The Germanness of Nietzsche's philosophy needs discussion as well -- but not necessarily in the lead, though we could try for a formulation along the lines "... a 19th-century Prussian-born philosopher (sometimes labelled a German philosopher)... who wrote in German ..." (how many times have I put forward alternative wording...?) -- If a reliable source discussed Nietzsche in the light of the Wikipedia guidelines, that would have some relevance here. Does anyone know of such a source? -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

1. The main point I intended to make with my post was that a source you've refered to in the past didn't seem to support your position. If I am wrong, could you point me to the section of "Nietzsche and the German Tradition" that you feel supports your view? This is certainly a good source, so if you can tell us how it makes your point (quotes from the text please) it would help your case. 2. In the past you've praised the Nietzsche article from the Shorter Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy for avoiding a "nationality label". This is true. However, The Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (the work from which the shorter is abridged) lists Nietzsche under Germany in the Index--not Switzerland, not Stateless, not Prussia or Prussian, etc 3. The Brobjer article, I think, supports the claim I've been trying to make for months now--Nietzsche scholars know all about the complexities of Nietzsche's nationality and Germaness, but they still find that the "German Philosopher" label is clear and acceptable. The index listing from the REP also supports this.Fixer1234 (talk) 05:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

1. The book Nietzsche and the German Tradition, by its very title, emphasizes Nietzsche's links to things German. But it also admits that less Germano-centric views and approaches exist. See the preface (sorry: I don't have the work readily at hand) and Brobjer's own article, which raises the acknowledged view of non-Germanness if only to deny it. The principles of WP:NPOV editing encourage us to take account of both views in constructing our article as a whole.
2. If the Shorter Routledge edited its parent-version for brevity and important points, its de-emphasis of Nietzsche's German links may indicate a trend...
3. Nietzsche scholars may indeed have Nietzsche's status sorted out in their own minds -- but we have an encyclopedia to write and different guidelines and audiences to consider. What scholars find clear may confuse and mislead the general reader. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not really familiar with the issue as far as how the arguments balance out in the secondary literature. However, my sense is that this is not a question of either/or. As I tried to clarify in one of my edits, the issue seems to relate to the differing contexts in which one could assert whether he was "German". German citizenship, culture, ethnicity and language are four different things. For example, is someone with Austrian citizenship "German"? An Austrian might exist within the German cultural sphere, very generally speaking, and in the sense of language and perhaps shared cultural elements would be "German". But would a writer from the Austo-Hungarian empire be a German? Would such a writer even be an "Austrian" since the state by this name did not exist as such when he or she lived? Kafka is described here in the English Wikipedia as a "German language" writer, of Jewish descent, from Prague, in an attempt to deal with the mixed claims of ethnicity and language. I think the issue here is that the philosopher himself disavowed being a "German", and he frequently mentions the idea of the "good European" alongside derisive attacks on the newly crafted German nation. From this point of view calling Nietzsche a "German" without qualification seems like irresponsible misrepresentation. The number of citations which suggest that Nietzsche was "German" make no matter if qualifications surrounding the context are not offered. The number of people who generally refer to Nietzsche as a "German" in scholarly literature makes no difference in the face of the fact that he was not a German citizen, derided the German nation, and went to considerable and verifiable pains to distance himself from Germany. In this case the weight of the primary literature seems to me most important. If we are to accept Brobjer's argument we should refer to the Swiss and Austrians (and some Poles) as Germans because they spoke, wrote and lived in a "German cultural climate". Nietzsche verifiably became a good European and spent his later years wandering the continent. He also made strong arguments for the idea that a philosopher's life and actions are as important as his writings. In both his writings and his actions he distanced himself from being "German". Are we then to blithely list him as a "German"? Are we to assume that once a person is safely dead we can disregard the way he chose to identify himself? Again, this is a particularly important question given that Nietzsche's life, writings, philosophy and actions verifiably show that the idea of distancing one's self from "nationalism" was critical to his attitude and ideas. In short, should a summary paragraph focus on how others identified the subject of an encyclopedia article, or on how the subject of the article chose to identify (verifiably) his or her self while alive?

In this context, the actual question at hand is:

Does referring to Nietzsche as a "German" in the opening paragraph because of the frequency with which this designation appears in secondary literature violate NPOV policy by disregarding the following verifiable facts:

1. Nietzche chose to identify himself as a European

2. took the affirmative step of annulling his Prussian citizenship

3. never held citizenship in the German Empire

4. advances a philosophy which explicitly dismisses nationalism in general (and "German" nationalism in particular)

That said, as Pedant17 (apparently?) holds a minority view here, he or she has to do the hard work to advance the position. Furthermore, I do not support Pedant17 coming in and repeatedly changing things in the face of contrary arguments. I should also note that the issue of Nietzsche's feelings about being "German" is already addressed in "Notes on Citizenship" in this article (though this is a very clumsy solution, in my opinion). If I may speculate, it seems that Pedant17's concern is that despite the note, the summary paragraph describes Nietzsche as a "German", perpetuating the casual treatment that this subject receives in literature intended for the general public. While I have some sympathy for this point of view, the way in which he or she is dealing with the disagreement is not acceptable. If Pedant 17 wishes to make this a cause, then he or she should do the work of gathering the citations, presenting his or her argument in a clear way. He or she should also be willing to compromise - after all, as I mentioned, the article already discusses this question at length. The issue which everyone should address is whether existing mention is sufficient, and whether or not the summary paragraph's cursory treatment violates NPOV. --Picatrix (talk) 11:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your clear exposition of the problem of labelling Nietzsche tout court as "German" or as a "German philosopher". I would add to my previous statements (see the talk-page archives) at this point only comment on the way in which this long-running content-dispute has developed: "changing things in the face of contrary arguments" describes precisely what has repeatedly happened when editors have re-inserted the nationality-label "German" in the lead WITHOUT addressing the matter on the talk-page. Indeed, a stated (on the talk-page) policy of NOT discussing points raised has prevailed for long periods of time (see [Archive 9: "My possible solution, indicated by the heading of this comment, is that we ignore Pedant17's comments until support for his position is demonstrated.") Hence my attempts to move matters forward by periodically re-aligning the article with the current state-of-play on the talk-page in the light of the "silence denotes assent" maxim and the WP:BRD practice. A perceived minority view will remain as a perceived minority view if ignored -- however well expressed. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to remind editors that Pedant17 began his campaign against referring to Nietzsche as German in September 2006, with this edit. That is nearly two years ago. Since that time, he has insisted on continuing it, with virtually no support. He has done so without cessation, at first simply reintroducing his version nearly every month, then continuing a talk page campaign which has attracted no supporters. I would humbly suggest that there is a point at which the community should expect an editor in Pedant17's position to graciously accept defeat, failing which I would humbly suggest that such an editor should expect some kind of judgment from the community about their behavior. It is my belief that the community has shown remarkable patience with this campaign, but I truly wonder whether it is a constructive use of everybody's energies to allow it to carry on indefinitely. BCST2001 (talk) 03:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Since our Talk-page tasks involve improving articles rather than discussing alleged editorial behavior, let me merely suggest that no "campaign against referring to Nietzsche as German" exists -- merely an intermittent attempt to apply Wikipedia guidelines to a biography and to de-emphasize a spurious implication of nationality/citizenship in the opening sentences of our article. Anyone dissatisfied with progress on the matter might prefer to re-draft Wikipedia guidelines -- or at least spell out precisely why they should not apply in this case. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Pedant17 describes his efforts as an "intermittent attempt" to "de-emphasize a spurious implication," but in my opinion this does not quite capture what is going on here. The notion that somehow I am flouting Wikipedia guidelines is nonsense, and a classic case of what I believe is called in Wikipedialand "rules lawyering." If other editors are persuaded by this logic, they may of course continue this "debate" ad infinitum. I am merely suggesting that this is a poor use of one's energies, and that there is no good reason to put up with this any longer. What others do is up to them. BCST2001 (talk) 03:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say that anything you do to revert Pedant17's edits meets with my approval, and probably with the consensus of those editors who monitor the pages related to Friedrich Nietzsche. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 04:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The notion that anyone has "flout[ed] Wikipedia guidelines" does not exist in this discussion. The Wikipedia guideline on lead paragraphs in biographies (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)) gives clear and consistent advice: we just need to discuss how to apply that advice. It states: "The opening paragraph should give: ... Nationality -- 1. In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. ... 2. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." We process this and come up with the clear conclusion: "stateless". I do not see how we can reconcile this guideline with any lead-paragraph suggestion that calls Nietzsche "German". What have I missed? -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm a newcomer to Wikipedia, but it seems to me that desire to decisively "settle" academic questions should be guarded against. I'm also not sure how to imagine a community being patient or passing judgment. Both those things are the prerogative of individual editors. If I address a question to "the community" I'm certain it will be individual editors who answer. Anyway "the community" is five or six people in this case, so far as I can tell. I have not reviewed all of Pedant17's edits, but the facts adduced suggest to me that someone feels an edit needs to be made and others disagree. I just reviewed his or her apologia pro, and the arguments seem sound. They warrant a coherent response. For this reason I'm striking some of my comments above. It seems that Pedant17 is quite right about being ignored. Ignoring good supporting arguments - and then complaining about a user who continuously attempts to make the edit that those arguments support - strains the assumption of good faith. I also reviewed the request for comment and it seems groundless to me. From my point of view, passing judgement on an editor with a minority opinion because he or she hasn't graciously accepted "defeat", and because he or she continues to suggest a change is as comical as it is counter-productive. While I'm undecided about whether I should expend my energy on arguing the case for putative German identity one way or the other, I certainly support the idea that we should all seriously consider the idea of changing the designation. In that respect you can count this as my vote of support for discussion of the question. I like coming back to questions, again and again. That's what the "show preview" button is for. I suggest that those who support the idea of Nietzsche being German present their argument for keeping the current version in place. I'd like to see a cogent and thorough argument for why he should be called a German. In the absence of any such affirmative argument I suggest we set about drafting a new version here based on consensus. --Picatrix (talk) 05:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Picatrix: My argument as to why Nietzsche should be called German is simple. (1.) Wikipedia has a policy forbiding Original Research.While Pedant17 has many interesting points, he has not cited a single article which supports his view that Nietzsche should be called anything other than German. I have searched journal archives, ordered books through ILL, and searched the internet. I've found some good articles that discuss Nietzsche's Germaness and nationality (see archived posts). I have been looking for scholarly articles that support Pedant17's position--I have found none. (2.) Many published sources use the German label. I've linked to examples of the German label being used in the lead sentace of books and articles about Nietzsche. See these: Nietzsche: A Very Short Introduction, a 120 page book about Nietzsche, by Michael Tanner; The Cambridge Companion to Nietzsche by Bernd Magnus and Kathleen Marie Higgins, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Encyclopedia Britannica, The Routledge Companion to Historical Studies, The Continental Ethics Reader (published by Routledge), Main Currents of Western Thought] from Yale University Press. The Importance of Nietzsche: Ten Essays does not begin with the phrase “German Philosopher...”. The first sentence speaks of “a young German who happened to live in Switzerland and taught classical philology in the University of Basle”. The second paragraph introduces that “young German” as Nietzsche. (3.) The people who write these books are proffessional scholars. They are aware that Nietzsche became "stateless" later in life. They know he was born in Prussia. As books like Nietzsche and the German Tradition demonstrate, many scholars are interested in questions about what exactly "German" means when applied to Nietzsche. However, they still find the German label clear and appropriate. (4.) We should call Nietzsche "German" because that label is what is supported by reliable sources. Pedant17 has interesting concerns and some good arguments. What he does not have is the support of published scholarship on Nietzsche.Fixer1234 (talk) 06:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

A full account of the arguments is preserved at Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche/Archive 9. The short of what I've said at various times runs as follows. The other nineteenth-century German philosophers and writers are called Germans; the Germans existed before the formation of a unified Germany, and Nietzsche was certainly one of those; the Manual of Style for biographies advises that nationality be included in the article introduction. Most important is the fact that the reasons against calling Nietzsche a German philosopher have constituted original research: reasons for the impropriety of doing so have been offered, but not reliable secondary sources to that effect. What evidence we do have is that there is a broad scholarly consensus in favor of calling Nietzsche a German. We reflect that consensus; we are not in the business of establishing or promoting The Truth. If the tone of this discussion sounds particularly acrimonious, it is because you are fortunate enough to have missed the last two years of tendentious editing by Pedant17. More detail on this debate can be found in the archived talk page: this is an issue that has been done to death and we are now beating the bloody smear where the horse used to be. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 06:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies. These answers seem reasonable to me. I'll restrain myself and try to keep my replies very short since you all have had to hear about this for such a long time. The three most significant points here - I think - are: 1. The possible lack of secondary scholarship which might position this argument as original research, 2. the established (thank you Fixer1234) precedent for calling him "German" based on his ethnicity and 3. The fact that the question is already dealt with further along in the article for those who want to know more. Against 1. I can say nothing because I've not yet had a look at the secondary scholarship. Against 2. I can say that RJC's point about Bio style guidelines specifically mentions nationality, but the Germans existing before the emergence of the modern state were ethnically German, and Pedant17 has adduced policy guidelines that suggest ethnicity should be played down, while nationality should be played up. Don't know about all that myself but it bears examination. Against 3. I can say nothing. This issue has really been covered in the notes on nationality and citizenship. I know that Nietzsche was not a German citizen and I don't have a big problem with him being called a German in the lead because it is not strictly inaccurate given the multiple connotations. Only educated readers will care about these distinctions in the age of "play" stations, and they'll see the subject represented in the notes on citizenship, which have been given very prominent placement for "notes". I'm still willing to listen and discuss ideas, but my general feeling is that Pedant17 might consider accepting an existing compromise. I'm as much of a pedant as Pedant17, but I know that accurate detail sometimes takes a backseat to brevity and clarity in a lead sentence. Since the subject is already noted in the article and the word "German" is, because of multiple senses, not strictly inaccurate in the lead, I'm still not convinced that we need to rewrite it. I'll take a look at the secondary literature to see what I find. Thanks for your patience in going over all of this again. --Picatrix (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

In response to User:RJC:

• "The other nineteenth-century German philosophers and writers are called Germans" -- This represents arguing in a circle. If we assume that Germans are called Germans, we can call Germans "German" without ambiguity in many cases -- but not in the case of Nietzsche when discussing citizenship. Nor does Wikipedia label Karl Marx as "German" in the lead of his article (though he arguably represents the German philosophical tradition better than does Nietzsche...)
• "... the Germans existed before the formation of a unified Germany ..." -- sure, if one accepts nationalist pre-suppositions. But Nietzsche never held "German" citizenship -- so we do not have a good case for emphasizing his Germanness in a Wikipedia lead.
• The Wikipedia Manual of Style for biographies currently states that a lead "should" (not "must") give nationality, and explains: "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable." The wording "was a citizen when the person became notable" would preclude mis-labelling Nietzsche as 'German" in this immediate context. The WP:MOSBIO further states: "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" -- which also militates against using the "German" label for a man who became prominent as a stateless person.
• Has anyone time-travelled to 19th-century Switzerland to do original research? We can discuss German nationality and German philosophy in the article on the basis of published material (and I have, I hope, assisted in so doing), but merely omitting a nationalistic label in the lead in order to follow Wikipedia guidelines on citizenship and ethnicity does not, as far as I can see, constitute original research. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

In response to User:Fixer1234: (1.) De-emphasizing Nietzsche's Germanness involves no original research: the literature overwhelmingly documents his Prussian citizenship, his subsequent statelessness, and his doubts about the German political developments after the state known as the German Empire did emerge in 1871. -- (2.) Nobody disputes that many works characterize Nietzsche as "German" or as a "German philosopher". We would need to analyze each usage to determine (if possible) whether it refers to ethnicity, nationality, cultural background, philosophical tradition, citizenship, or something else... Wikipedia lead paragraphs concentrate on citizenship. -- (3.) Professional scholars do not always write clearly and appropriately themselves. Do we have scholarly statements to the effect that they find the "German" label "clear and appropriate"? (By the same token, other scholars can and do find it "clear and appropriate" to de-emphasize the Germanness of Nietzsche on occasion -- just by omitting the label. The lead of our article gains in clarity and appropriateness from a similar omission -- with the discussion of the details of what "German" might mean addressed elsewhere.) -- (4.) We can call Nietzsche "German", and we have reliable sources to support that. But we need not do so in a prominently ambiguous way. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia's definition of original research includes "analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." 2. You are right to say that "the literature overwhelmingly documents his Prussian citizenship, his subsequent statelessness", etc. The point, however, is that published literature discusses these fine points things and also overwhelmingly continues to call Nietzsche German. (Including in the first sentences and first paragraphs of books/articles.) 3. I appreciate that you seem to have thought about this issue a great deal. You have some fine points. However, your sources and arguments still amount to what Wikipedia considers original research—that is a “synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position.” You have not (in the more than six months I personally have been involved in this discussion) come up with any published sources that argue just what you are arguing. 5. Unless you can come up with published scholarly sources that establish that there is a clear movement in current work on Nietzsche to do away with the German label the German label must stay. To do otherwise would be to (as you say) “confuse and mislead the general reader.” 6. So I'll ask of you what I asked back in March---show us a published journal article, a masters thesis, a PhD dissertation, or book that argues that the “German” label is so problematic it should not be applied to Nietzsche.Fixer1234 (talk) 04:26, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

1. The only "position" that I have "advanced" involves following Wikipedia guidelines: everything else I've added counts as background discussion or as supporting material. Applying the guidelines hardly counts as original research. 2. The published literature does not (and need not) follow Wikipedia guidelines on constructing the first paragraph of a Wikipedia encyclopedia entry. We can (and do) follow the published literature elsewhere in the article and discuss Nietzsche's Germanness on the rare occasions where its seems relevant. 3. Unsurprisingly, few if any published sources mention or care about Wikipedia's internal editorial policies on such details as nationality guidelines. 5. The "German label" can and should stay in the body of the article, but its presence in the lead goes against Wikipedia guidelines and potentially misrepresents the facts of the case. 6. I repeat the matter I have raised since at least August 2007: the Wikipedia guidelines encourage us to avoid labeling Nietzsche as any sort of German in the lead paragraph. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

And, yes, we do have scholarly statements to the effect that they find the German label appropriate? See the quote from "Nietzsche as German Philosopher" above.Fixer1234 (talk) 04:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Brobjer's article entitled "Nietzsche as German Philosopher: his reading of rthe classical German philosophers" makes a strong statement affirming Nietzsche's Germanness, and we can of course cite what he says. He also makes the case for not considering Nietzsche as German -- which we may also cite:

It could be argued that Nietzsche should not be regarded as a German philosopher at all. ... Firstly, at the age of twenty-four he 'resigned' his Prussian citizenship and thereafter remained stateless for the rest of his life. Secondly, the strongest early philosophical influences on himn were not German but greek and American in the form of Plato (and other ancient Greeks) and Emerson. He will soon thereafter become strongly influenced by Schopenhauer, Lange and Kant, but this influence he will later reject, which was not true for the influence of Emerson and the Greeks. Thirdly, he never mentions a number of important German philosophers such as Wolff, Mendelssohn, Thomasius, Jacobi and others, and he apparently has not read anything at all, or only very limited amounts of Leibniz, fichte, Schelling, Herbart and others. Fourthly, Nietzsche himself did not want to be a German philosopher. He was the most anti-German of all German philosophers and suggested 'German' as a new four-letter word suitable for something very superficial and he claimed that it would be easier to translate his books into French than into German. Instead, he referreed to himself as a good European. Fifthly, the Germans themselves do not wish to regard him as German, at least in the general sense which is reflected in the fact that many Germans are ashamed of him and that Berlin not only has one , or several, Kant, Schopenhauer and Fichte streets etc., and also one or two Hartmann, Stirner and Treitschke streets, but no Nietzsche street. ... The claim that Nietzsche was not a German philosopher is perhaps a possible and reasonable claim with regard to the classical German philosophers discussed in this paper, but on the other hand, the Zeitgeist of the second half of the nineteenth century was so steeped in metaphysical philosophy and the great German philosophers that, even without a first-hand reading, a German student or intellectual would have been relatively well acquainted with them." (pp 40-42).

Some of this argumentation may seem spurious or straw-mannish; parts clearly relate to Brobjer's interest in "German philosophy" rather than in German nationality. But the points appear better-argued than the author's circular "conclusion" that Nietzsche definitely belongs in the German tradition -- apparently because he emerged from a German milieu. It reminds me of German philosophy : an introduction by Julian Roberts (Cambridge: Polity, 1988), which unashamedly includes Kierkegaard and György Lukács as luminaries of German philosophy for the sake of the authorial argument. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Wow. I just went over the heaps of back-and-forth recorded in the archive. I apologize for not having better prepared myself, and thereby having made it necessary for you all to have to repeat yourselves. I still have not had a chance to dig into secondary literature but even if a number of citations are found I think it's unlikely that they would support any sort of 'shoe-horning' of a nationality discussion into the opening paragraph, which should be concise and as clear as possible. In the balance of things some ambiguity can, in my opinion, be tolerated. That said it is clear that Pedant17 is not 'wrong' and that his or her argument has merit. Choosing to streamline the biographical information for purposes of a general introduction does in fact introduce significant ambiguity. Pedant17 also seems to feel strongly enough about the subject to hammer away at it for a few years. Instead of initiating requests for comment and all the rest is there some other approach or way of dealing with this issue that will result in a necessary minimum feeling of satisfaction for all parties? I should ask explicitly: Pedant17, can you suggest a solution to the problem that we all recognize, that does not involve removing "German philosopher" from the intro text? Surely we can all figure out an acceptable compromise. It seems positions have ossified here and that it should be easy to find a way to meet in the middle. Note: I do not mean to suggest that a compromise solution is not already in place in the form of the "Notes on Citizenship". --Picatrix (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"German philosopher" tout court has too many ambiguities and implications: at the very least it would need a footnote on "German". -- I've suggested several different wordings over the months -- many of them got reverted without specific discussion. We could retrive a gallery of alternatives from the article history. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I think perhaps that the subject of Nietzsche's feelings on citizenship, nationality, and state, might deserve a separate article. I've found a fair amount of material that would support such an endeavor. If Pedant17 wished to work on such an article I would be happy to help, and it would give the subject the attention it deserves. But Nietzsche doubtless thought of himself as a German for part of his life, during his youth. How else are we to explain his desire to join the army to participate in a German struggle? If we say he is not a German in the opening paragraph we might do justice to his later, intentionally crafted identity, but we'd replace one ambiguity with another: for part of his life Nietzsche was a citizen of a German nation. However, after looking into all of this, I feel that the most important argument in favor of leaving the ethnic description "German" in the introductory text is the definition of the word. My unabridged Websters shows "German" as: "1. A citizen or native of Germany; a person of German stock". My full OED shows German as "Of or pertaining to Germany or its inhabitants. The precise signification depends on the varying extension given to the name Germany." it notes that the earliest meaning of the word, deriving from the Latin, as "the designation of persons belonging to a group of related peoples inhabiting central and northern Europe, and speaking the dialects from which the 'Germanic' or 'Teutonic' languages have been developed." This suggests that in its earliest - and still its recognized primary sense - the word German does precisely serve its function of generally indicating Nietzsche's native land, ethnicity and language. Arguing that a word should not be included because one of its senses - and the most recent - creates ambiguity (citizen of modern Germany) while three other senses are right on the mark - and older - (native of a German land, German ethnicity, German language speaker) is not sufficient reason to introduce confusion or awkward phrasing such as "a 19th-century Prussian-born philosopher (sometimes labelled a German philosopher) who wrote in German" into the opening paragraph. That said I would be willing to see this opening sentence footnoted, or a separate article discussing the issue of his citizenship and nationality. But changing the German designation in the opening paragraph would be the sort of pedantry I cannot support (rare as that is), which is to say the sort that is too clever by half, and cuts off the nose to spite the face. By getting tangled in such niceties at the outset we'll be much more likely to cause confusion for new readers, and in any case the interests of the persons who would be looking for such details are being addressed by the existing note on citizenship. I've really listened to Pedant17's arguments past and present, I recognize their merit, and I've looked into the secondary literature. But I can't support changing the opening paragraph in this case. It is also not longer possible for Pedant17 to claim that he or she is being ignored. I suggest that we harness his or her enthusiasm and energy, and recognize the merit of his or her arguments by supporting the creation of separate article. This would add further clarity and conciseness in the main article, give the subject a full treatment in an appropriate place, and hopefully transform a nuisance (for some) into a constructive contribution. --Picatrix (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion that "Nietzsche doubtless thought of himself as a German for part of his life, during his youth" would need close scrutiny. We look back on 19th-century nationalism from a 21st-century vantage-point and see pan-Germanism as in some sense an inevitable winner -- but we cannot necessarily read such views back into the mind of the young Nietzsche who grew up in the centuries-old Prussian state structure. -- Likewise we need to beware of anachronism in explaining "his desire to join the army to participate in a German struggle". Did he see 1870 as a Franco-Prussian war or as a Franco-German showdown -- or just as a conflict in relation to which he felt a civic or humanitarian obligation? -- We cannot even definitively characterize the Prussia of Nietzsche's youth as exclusively "German" -- the very name of the state came (deliberately) from outside the German lands and large swathes of the Prussian countryside counted ethnically as Polish or Sorbian/Lusatian. -- If the Manual of Style did not highlight citizenship and eschew ethicity I would have no argument with your dictionary-based research apart from the one that we could look up "Prussian" and come to equally valid conclusions based on pre-assumptions -- but we can highlight German culture and the use of German language in other ways. -- I endorse the suggestion of a separate article -- should it neccessarily confine itself to Nietzsche's own views, though? -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply, and for your interest in this subject. The point in this case is not whether you or I could look up "Prussian" and come to equally valid conclusions, it is rather whether others have in reliable secondary sources. When I refer to Nietzsche as thinking of himself as a German for part of his life I refer to the broadest ethnic and linguistic meaning. I am in full agreement with you regarding the foolishness inherent in retrospectively projecting our current mythos/ethos of "nationalism" backwards in time and speculating that the same assumptions held sway in the past. I do not suggest that he thought of himself as a German in any sense that would require assuming an outlook of "pan-Germanism" on his part. Your point regarding anachronism as regards his military service is also well taken. Against this view (which I feel is quite reasonable), one might suggest that the most fundamental behavioral indicator of a sense of collective identity is the fact of participation in war waged by that collective. From this point of view the ideological justification for participation in struggle is usually a rationalization of a deeply felt sense of obligation to the herd of which one is a part (which is of course a subject that occupied Nietzsche's attention). The "civic or humanitarian" obligations you mention derive from collective identity. Whether that identity was in the past defined as Prussian national identity, or German cultural and linguistic identity is of little consequence, given that we today habitually designate this collective (however Procrustean it may be) as "German". If you wish to campaign against the ignorance inherent in nationalistic assumptions, or the violence that our ill-considered terminology often does to history I applaud you. But this article is not the place to fire the first salvo. Nietzsche struggled on behalf of the people who spoke his mother language (German) and occupied the territory he was then a citizen of. I do not suggest that this is an argument that trumps yours, merely that it is an alternative point of view that should receive the attention it is due. In any case, we are engaging in defense of positions based on our own research and thoughts. Happily we can set this approach aside (while keeping our wits about us) and present the different attested viewpoints available in the secondary literature, in keeping with editorial guidelines.

My own feeling is that we should not confine ourselves to Nietzsche's own views, as this depends upon our own (potentially original) interpretation. Instead we should gather and display all of the primary material which is attested in Nietzsche's writings in the context provided by secondary literature, thereby assuring that we are not presenting original research. By addressing the various facets of the question dealt with by researchers we aim to ensure some facsimile of neutrality. The distinction between collation and organization, which is appropriate work for a Wikipedia editor, and original research, which is not, is sometimes hard to establish. For this reason editors often push for the most conservative interpretations and demand extensive citation and support from secondary sources. I hope it is clear that I am not arguing against original thought and research by individual scholars - rather I'm arguing against accepting it from Wikipedia editors.

I would like to hear what others here think of creating the new article, and what input (if any) they would like to offer regarding its potential structure. There is no shortage of material which deals with the citizenship and nationality question, and Nietzsche's thoughts about it. As a taste here are a few references I pulled when this subject first came up. There's more...

Lester H. Hunt, Nietzsche and the Origin of Virtue, Routledge 1993, p 37 [In section entitled "The Phenomenology of Citizenship"]: "By now it is obvious enough, I hope, why Nietzsche thought culture and the state are antagonistic and why his sympathies were overwhelmingly on the side of culture. His conception of culture is connected more or less by definition with the notion of development toward the ideal, in the he conceives of culture as that which fosters this sort of development. He has a very definite idea of what sort of awareness must be promoted in order for this mission of culture to be achieved. On the basis of an analysis of the sort of consciousness into which those who live in states are liable to fall - on the basis of might be called his phenomenology of citizenship - he believes that states tend by nature to interfere with the development of this sort of awareness. The state is thus antagonistic toward culture and, for all the same reasons, inferior to it."

Paul Van Tongeren, Reinterpreting Modern Culture, Purdue University Press, 2000, p 23 and p26: "Nietzsche was never very excited about either the political or the military events in the Germany of his day. As a matter of fact, Germany hardly existed. Nietzsche lived in Prussia, one of the states that later united with others to form Germany."

[and]

"Nietzsche accepted the appointment and, without any remorse, renounced his Prussian and German citizenship. From this point on Nietzsche was no longer a citizen of any nation. His lack of citizenship allowed him, later on, to call himself the first European (this could be another reason not consider him a German philosopher)."

Lou Andreas-Salome, Nietzsche, University of Illinois Press, 2001, ix, [regarding the photo of Nietzsche, Salome and Ree]: "The photograph's caption - 'Friedrich Nietzsche, formerly professor and now a wandering fugitive' - was mischievously snipped and transposed from a letter to Ree by Nietzsche in 1879, referring to the severance from his ten-year position at the University of Basel. The self-description 'fugitivus errans' had nothing to do with the idea of madness. It suggested Nietzsche's statelessness; he had to relinquish his German citizenship in 1869, but because of "continuous residence" requirements he never became a Swiss citizen either; instead he was pleased to call himself a 'good European'".

Catherine A. Holland,The Body Politic, Routledge, 2001, p175: "Can we break the spell of citizenship? Can we, as Nietzsche put it, conceive of a 'past from which we may spring rather than that from which we seem to have derived?'"

Let your citations do your work for you. --Picatrix (talk) 13:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Picatrix: you display great balance and insight. I would merely remind fellow-editors (once again) that we do NOT want to expunge discussion of Germanity from the Nietzsche article: I merely propose that given the guidelines on citizenship in lead paragraphs and the fact that the mature/productive Nietzsche lacked German citizenship, we avoid all Procrustean slippery-slope crudity and defer ambiguous labeling until the body of the article(s) where we can (and already have started to) discuss such matters in a balanced manner befitting the difficulties and various viewpoints. -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Self-hatred and hybris have always co-existed quite comfortably in the self-perception of educated Germans (Hoelderlin !). Nietzsche`s idiosyncratic rantings about being a Polish noble don`t change the fact that he was a German. In rejecting democracy and egalitarianism, Nietzsche was more in line with a specific German tradition of thought than any of the "classical" German philosophers. His thinking was the most extreme, albeit somewhat paradox, expression of the deeply anti-liberal and anti-humanitarian environment and tradition he stems from. The "last unpolitical German" who he claimed himself to be - who is the "last unpolitical German" if not the one who rejects Western concepts of liberty and the whole body of liberal ideas ? Nietzsche rightly considered the concept of the nation state as an essential part of the post-1789 liberal tradition.

Does the fact that Emerson was strongly influenced by German philosophy make him any less of an American thinker ? Nietzsche almost always spoke ill of Americans ("airheads") and of Anglo-Saxons in general ("cows, women and Englishmen"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.230.157 (talk) 16:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for resurrecting this discussion, but I see some double standards here. Despite Nietzsche's deliberate aversion to being labelled as a German, he is labelled in the article here as "German philosopher", because this is the consensus among most scholars, as it turns out. However, when it comes to Copernicus, he is NOT labelled as "Polish astronomer" despite the consensus in most sources (such as Encyclopaedia Britannica) to label him as such. Something's not right. Dawidbernard (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

What should Nietzsche have been, if not a German? A part-time-Prussian? A self-declared Pole? The somethings that are not right are the English language encyclopedias (which are, like Wikipedia itself, only tertiary sources) which still classify the German speaking (and writing) Copernicus as Polish, like the current Encyclopaedia Britannica, which in its 9th edition (the most scholarly Britannica ever produced) from 1878 (and 10th of 1902) had stated that Copernicus was born at Thorn in Prussia, but in its heavily criticized 11th edition (less scholarly but more intelligible to a mass market) of 1911, "Polish astronomer" was added by the author Agnes Mary Clerke. That was not an improvement, but an expression of the anti-German sentiment of the time, which soon led into a World War, and then another. Even after the Cold War, this has not been fixed. In the meantime, Microsoft has learned its lesson and closed Encarta down, as it can not compete with free encyclopedias like Wikipedia which are proof-read by many more eyes. Besides, anyone arguing that Copernicus should be considered a Pole due to the status of Royal Prussia needs to call Marie Curie a Russian, too, as there was no Polish state in the 19th century. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Prescribed opening

At 1143 hours on 2008-08-01 an editor suggested in an edit-summary of an edit to the article that an "opening line should directly identify the subject: x is a y". I've encountered this sort of prescription before -- without ever seeing an accepted Wikipedia policy or guideline on the matter. Do we know of such a prescription? -- Pedant17 (talk) 02:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It's the preferred format of any example given in WP:LEDE. While there's no consensus that it should be prescribed, it enjoys popular support across the majority of articles on Wikipedia. While I don't believe that it should be rigidly adhered to, nor do I believe that it should be edited out as a matter of course. In this case, the introduction looked forced when it was changed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I see it too as merely a possible format, as presented by the examples. My introduction may well have seemed forced: my previous dozens of attempts to reword the opening sentence in various ways have each suffered reversion -- a matter of content rather than form. -- Pedant17 (talk) 03:13, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Egalitarianism and Feminism

I think it's important to include Nietzsche's repudiation of egalitarian ideas (besides Christianity) like Democracy, Socialism, so I changed the introduction a little bit. BTW: It's hard to understand why Nietzsche's radical and antifeministic positions on womans were ignored in this article. They are at least as important as his views on democracy and socialism.--D.H (talk) 18:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Articles to help grow the "Notes on citizenship.." section

• Morgan, D., Nietzsche and National Identity. A companion to Nietzsche, pp.455-474, 2006. You can read sections of the essay on Google Books.
• Blue, Daniel. What Was Nietzsche's Nationality? The Journal of Nietzsche Studies - Issue 31, Spring 2007, pp. 73-82.(Abstract here).
• Brobjer., Thomas H., Nietzsche as German Philosopher. Nietzsche and the German Tradition, ed. Nicholas Martin. - Oxford, 2003 (Abstract here). Fixer1234 (talk) 04:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
• I am collecting resources related to this section in my Sandbox: User:Fixer1234/sandboxFixer1234 (talk) 09:45, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Morality & Article restructuring

This section was tagged as WP:OR in February of 2008—but the user left no discussion on the talk page. My opinion? : the content is not WP:OR - but the tone in which it is written makes it sound like it is. As we all know there are many, varied interpretations of Nietzsche's thought and this style of writing comes off as too dogmatic. I want this tag gone. I'm thinking of doing a re-write with a less aggressive tone—thinking this is enough. Is it? ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 19:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nothing in the material strikes me as original research. It reads like an overview of some aspects of Nietzsche's revaluation project that focuses rather heavily on Christianity in discussion of slave morality. For example it leaves out the whole question of Socrates and his introduction of the dialectic, supreme tool of those promoting slave morality. It also leaves out a discussion of how Nietzsche measured what values are life affirming and hence worth positing as the "Yes". It also has strange artifacts like "Christians dominated by Rome" as somehow qualifying Nietzsche's attacks on Christianity as being less critical of Protestantism. But none of that really bothers me. The current structure of this entire article is its biggest problem, so I see no reason to quibble over a rewrite. I should say though that if you want to get rid of WP:OR tags, citation is a much better strategy than a rewrite. Many attempts to summarize Nietzsche's views on morality exist in published secondary sources. Why not present a few of these summaries, rather than writing from scratch with no citations? The absence of any citations or mention of views from secondary sources is probably why the tag is hanging there. --Picatrix (talk) 01:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well I looked up the original editor in the history and asked him about it but he has apparently lost interest. So I am going to remove the tag and give a single cite to cover the lot. Later on I'll try to finesse it with a more nuanced tone. I don't believe in excess citation. This article's already covered with it like flies on dog-spit. The section concerned here can be found in any number of books on N.'s thought. A problem typical of articles about controversial figures like N. is editors trying to spin his thought in one direction attracting other editors who want to spin in a different direction and who immediately challenge with the fact tag. Then, more often than not, the nasty thing just sits there, like a hairy mole on a witch's chin. The result? an article that looks like this one—distracting and bothersome to the casual reader.

In regards to the article as a whole I've been meaning for a while to devote some time to a partial overhaul. I'd like to see the "Works" section reduced to a simple list with links to their own articles. Then expand on the core themes like:

1. Übermench
2. God is Dead
3. Eternal Return
4. Will to Power
5. Perspectivism

etc. I've also been toying with the idea of following up the conventional bio with a "thought-bio" consisting of a chronological look at the evolution of his philosophy. This approach can be found in several of the Nietzschean vade mecums.

Just some ideas. Run them up the flagpole and see who salutes. Ideas? ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only the works section, also the philosophical section should be reduced, so we can go on and improve the (very biased) article Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche. --D.H (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm one hundred percent behind having a list with links. Then people who want to read more can do so and those who don't can read the basic article here.--Picatrix (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I've begun the restructuring discussed above and would like to ask Picatrix & D.H if they would sort of follow along behind me and make sure nothing gets lost by falling between the cracks—six eyes being better than two. I'd also like to invite anyone to let me know if they think I've missed something or gone awry in any way. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Alcmaeonid--Just wanted to say I think your edits are a bold step in a very positive direction! Thanks! Fixer1234 (talk) 04:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We now have works organized in a much better way. Thanks for doing the significant work necessary. We now have Biography as a main section with subheadings. I wonder if "will to power", "morality" and the rest should be organized similarly under philosophy? I suspect you may already be thinking this way, based on what you wrote above about expanding core philosophical themes. This would give us a very simple overall structure for the article. I am not suggesting that these sections get moved to separate pages the way that the works were, rather that they become numbered subheadings like 2.3 or 2.4, instead of 3,4,5, etc. Thoughts? --Picatrix (talk) 13:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

About the tag on: "Nietzsche's earliest philosophical influences were Greek and American, not German." You're right--it needs a citation. I've read a few things that discuss this. I'll dig through my folder of Nietzsche articles and see which one(s) would work best. Whenever possible, I like to use sources that will be more accessible for non-philosophers.Fixer1234 (talk) 02:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I also tried to find the Brobjer passage you included, so that I could cite its location, but for some reason I couldn't locate it. Would you mind adding a citation to it as well? --Picatrix (talk) 15:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and used your idea Picatrix, moving the individual topics under the Philosophy head. This is just a first step to make it easier to look at and think about. I've been reconsidering though whether expanding on these is a good idea. This is a general introduction article and the focus of this section should probably remain just that: introductory. Telescoping them might be a better approach and then move our energy over to Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche and re-editing/expanding the core themes there. As D.H mentioned above, the latter article needs much work also. Take a look at the Søren Kierkegaard article. I think it a good model. There the Thought section is relatively small (with the {{main}} link of course to the full version) in comparison to the biographical detail which is interspersed with looks at how his ideas evolved. Let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 01:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for shortening the works section. And as I said above: We should completely eliminate the sections "Morality, The death of God, nihilism, and perspectivism, The Will to Power, Übermensch, The principle of Eternal Return." The only thing we need is

• the text under the Philosophy head
• a link to Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche,
• and a list of links to the specific topics.

Regards, --D.H (talk) 18:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that that would be appropriate. I think that things as they stand are pretty close to WP:Summary style. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 18:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Influence

Are there any guidelines for whether someone should be included as influenced by Nietzsche? Mention has been made of whether or not the supposedly influenced person has been mentioned in the article, but Kafka and Gibran are included and are not mentioned in the article. RJC has often brought up the fact that the person in the influenced list should be a "philosopher" (and I'm not really sure just what that means). Gibran might be considered a philosopher, but Kafka and Yeats seem like writers and poets to me. Not that a writer or poet cannot be a philosopher, but I'm not seeing a consistent standard here. I ask because a user is trying to place Kundera in the influenced list. Currently there is no mention of Kundera in the article, Kundera would seem not to be a philosopher in any strict sense, and there is no citation for the claim of Nietzsche's influence in the Kundera article itself. I have removed the Kundera addition because there is no citation. But guidelines need to be established here by consensus or reference to editorial standards. Can anyone offer me guidance as regards this issue? --Picatrix (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There was some talk on Template talk:Infobox Philosopher, but the guidelines are rather flexible. There was some suggestion that the person should be important enough to be mentioned in the article (with citations), and someone agreed on this page months ago (I have no idea which archive that's now in). At the very least, inclusions still have to satisfy WP:V. I have no problem removing authors, especially as there was a time when any author not influenced by Nietzsche was a hack. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 17:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that leaves us with case-by-case decisions, which if somewhat vague can at least be considered flexible. I also have no problems with removing authors. As you mentioned, in many cases it is more a question of who was not influenced by Nietzsche. It sounds as though we should consider inclusion based on notability and - to some extent - relevance to philosophical discussion. But do you all feel that Yeats, Gibran and Kafka belong on the list? --Picatrix (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, any candidate for either the "Influences" or "Influenced" categories should be able to have his/her status confirmed by scholarly sources. The editor proposing the candidate should provide those sources. As RJC and Picatrix have noted, Nietzsche is such a pivotal thinker that it is often a question of who was not influenced by him. There is at least one issue unique to the "Influenced" category. It is quite possible for (1) someone (such as Yeats?)to be strongly influenced by Nietzsche and for (2) that fact to be significant to the study of the influenced individual but insignificant to the study/understanding of Nietzsche. One possible criterion would be an assessment of whether the sources given are about Nietzsche as much as they are about the influenced individual. It would be easy, for instance, to find articles that engage the philosophy of Foucault and Nietzsche with equal rigor. Can the same be said for Yeats or Gibran? Fixer1234 (talk) 04:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My own opinion is that this sounds like a very good approach. If this sort of standard is applied, writers like Camus or Mann definitely belong in the "influenced" list. Probably Mencken as well... But London, Kafka, Gibran, Kesey and Yeats really don't strike me as appropriate. Summarizing the input thus far it seems that for inclusion in the "influenced" list:

1. A 'philosophical' context is preferred, but not required.

2. Citable mention of the influenced individual in the context of Nietzsche studies is required.

3. In keeping with #2, mention of Nietzsche's influence upon the individual in question in the context of studies pertaining to that individual is not in itself sufficient to guarantee mention; these candidates for inclusion will be decided on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus and established Wikipedia guidelines.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? --Picatrix (talk) 12:46, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Since there is both a section and an entire article devoted to this subject (more than covering all the bases), I say we limit the influenced section of the philosophers infobox to philosophers only. I think that was the original intenion anyway. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 13:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for this approach. If anyone else disagrees, please let me know. If I don't hear anything I'll pull all non-philosophers from the influenced box. We'll be losing a number of names, one of which (Dostoevsky) is tagged in the markup as someone who should not be removed. I don't want to step on anyone's toes so please let me know your thoughts. La Rochefoucauld is also a writer, and so, presumably, should be removed? --Picatrix (talk) 15:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think a figure like Dostoevsky demonstrates the significant disadvantage of a strict restriction to philosophers. Nietzsche wrote about reading Dostoevsky. There is a good deal of scholarship that connects the two. Google search of JSTOR brings up over 1,000 hits for pages containing both "Nietzsche" and "Dostoevsky". For example, A Note on Nietzsche and Dostoevsky reads: "Nietzsche, on the other hand, not only knew some of Dostoevsky's principle works, but regarded him as the only psychologist from whom he had anything to learn and who belonged among the 'happiest windfalls' of his life." I've not sorted through all of the JSTOR hits, but if even a tenth of them discuss both Nietzsche and Dostoevsky at length, we would have strong argument for keeping D. in the info box. Perhaps we just need to be a little bit liberal or creative in our definition of "philosopher"? After all, Dostoevsky is commonly read in philosophy classes (on existentialism) at the university level. At any rate, we need to be careful that our desire to eliminate "fancruft" doesn't lead us to automatically cut figures significant to the study and understanding of Nietzsche. I say--let the literature be the measure.Fixer1234 (talk) 12:09, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

You're right about Dostoevsky. We should probably distinguish between the Influences and Influenced fields, and be strict only about the latter. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 13:52, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds great!Fixer1234 (talk) 14:25, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems like the consensus then is the following: in the philosophers infobox we will limit the "influenced" list strictly to philosophers. "Infuenced by" will have a broader set of inclusion criteria to include those who had a significant impact on N's thought. If this is so we should ask Picatrix to go ahead and prune the "influenced" list per her proposal above. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 15:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

YesFixer1234 (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Aye. RJC ^{Talk Contribs} 23:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the edit. Please check my work. There were some close calls and some notability issues seemed to rear up once the list was pruned to a more viewable size. Nothing is fixed in stone. Consider this a first cut. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 00:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry guys, I'm in freak-out mode preparing for a conference and was not able to get to it. It all looks good to me. This article is really improving! Thanks for taking care of it. --Picatrix (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the following suggestion has been considered before, but perhaps the two titles could be changed to reflect the above consensus (as to what the titles mean), i.e. each of the following:

1. "Influenced by" might be changed to something like "Influenced by the following thinkers" or "Thinkers influencing him".
2. "Influenced" might be changed to e.g. "Influenced the following philosophers" or "Philosophers influenced".

The pros of the change would include:

• Be clear to readers.
• Save the time of readers who believe the present titles and thus add non-philosopher influencees to the Influenced list.
• Save the time of other editors in replying to such additions.

The cons might include:

• Maybe the longer titles would not fit well in the (fairly narrow) box.
• There might be some parallelism/template/coding problem, because i see that the text "Influenced by" is produced by the underlying coding "Influences". So maybe the two substantive changes cannot be made, for technical reasons. Bo99 (talk) 13:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

This would be a matter for Template Talk:Infobox Philosopher. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 16:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll add mention of the clarified meanings of the two titles, as hidden text visible only to those who edit. (I'll make the additions in due course, unless there's mention of good reason to the contrary). Bo99 (talk) 01:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Cause of death

It is disputed whether Nietzsche died of brain cancer, dementia, pneumonia, stroke/cerebrovascular disease, syphilis, or a combination of two or more of those. Was there never a death certificate issued, or has it been lost/destroyed? Was there a post-mortem? Is there no official documentation regarding what he died of? Werdnawerdna (talk) 23:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

'Nietzsche's letters to his sister' - Suggest removal

I'd like to suggest that the section entitled 'Nietzsche's letters to his sister' be removed. My justifications and suggestions follow:

1. A section title should reflect the content of that section. In this section, the following content is related to the correspondence between Nietzsche and his sister:

"Friedrich Nietzsche wrote many letters to his sister, Elisabeth, throughout his lifetime. [...] (who had written to his sister about the absurdity of the idea) [...] In a letter from Nietzsche to Elisabeth, he warns her 'not to be misled by any friendly—and in this case dangerous—inquisitiveness, into reading the books that I am about to publish now'."

The following has nothing to do with their correspondence:

"Nietzsche's sister was closely affiliated with the anti-Semitic movement in Germany during the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.[66] In the 1880s, Elisabeth (who was, from early on, a believer in a superior Aryan race) married Bernhard Förster, an anti-Semitic activist. The two proceeded to establish an Aryan colony in Paraguay, which they called Nueva Germania.[67] This project did not go well, and Nietzsche [...] was not surprised.[68] [69] Despite such warnings, Nietzsche's sister distorted his meanings to support her ideas.[70] After Nietzsche's mental collapse, Elisabeth took control of his published and unpublished works, editing as she pleased and frequently misinterpreting him—though whether this was by accident or design is not always clear. After Nietzsche’s death she went even further to reword, and, in some cases, rewrite some of his works. Later, she supported the Nazi regime and tried to integrate Nietzsche's work with Nazi ideology."

This section title does not reflect the preponderance of the content the section contains. It's not about 'letters'.

2. This section is positioned arbitrarily in the overall article. It's stuck onto the end as a sort of afterthought.

3. The section title is already misleading simply because it doesn't accurately reflect the content of the section, as noted. However, it is also misleading in the sense that it suggests that this section will address the (apocryphal?) collection of 'Nietzsche's' letters to his sister.

4. This section is redundant. Most of the information it contains is contained in preceding sections. The one or two non-redundant pieces of information it contains can easily be incorporated into existing text sections. Hence:

Suggestion: remove the unnecessary section and incorporate the items of non-redundant information it contains into existing text. --Picatrix (talk) 15:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd be sympathetic to removing this section. Its purpose seems to be to distance Nietzsche from his sister's Aryan-supremacy and from Nazism. I think the article does that pretty well already. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 22:04, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I vote Remove. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Recent ill-considered additions to main article

CABlankenship has recently added material to the article that is not, in my opinion, an improvement. Because of the work done to the article over the past months (particularly the streamlining of the Philosophy section) the ponderousness of the content has been reduced a bit and it is more streamlined. However:

1. Prior to CABlankenship's recent additions we had no large block quotes by authors other than Nietzsche himself. Substantial quotes regarding Nietzsche, from other authors, have accumulated instead in the sub-articles associated with this primary article. This allows us to keep this article short enough to fit the description of an encyclopedia article, while allowing interested parties to dig deeper in sub pages or in citations. These recent edits add significant length, and one is forced to ask: to what end? Again, the reader will note that other than these recent additions, there are no other large block quotes by other authors currently included. This was not an editorial accident, but the result of consideration by contributing editors of the needs an encyclopedia article should attempt to balance and meet.

2. All three postings cast Nietzsche in a negative light. This too, would seem to be something less than an editorial accident, though driven, perhaps, by less neutral motives, assumptions of good faith notwithstanding.

3. In each case where one of these blockquotes on Nietzsche has been included, one could just as easily add a number of blockquotes from other authors with other opinions. This is an encyclopedia article, not a mediaeval manuscript, and so one wonders what end would be served by collating successive layers of commentary akin to marginalia. If there is any value to these additions (and I do not personally feel there is) the general reader would be better served by short summary sentences.

4. I previously removed the redundant Russell blockquote, though I Ieft it on the "Influence and Reception" sub-page where it was more appropriate (while correcting errors and adding the missing citation details). CABlankenship promptly replaced it here, with no explanation or justification. Whence comes this desire to repeatedly broadcast Bertrand Russell's opinions regarding Nietzsche? Surely once is enough? If not, why?

5. Prior to these additions, all sub-sections under the heading "Philosophy" in this article were related to recognized and much-discussed components of N's philosophy. While a case could be made for adding a section on Nietzsche's attitudes towards 'Evolution' I cannot understand on what basis a section on Nietzsche's 'philosophy of women' might proceed. I am aware of no Nietzsche 'philosophy of women'. Nietzsche might have had attitudes towards women which he expressed in his writing, but adding such a sub-section under the philosophy heading, next to recognized themes like "Eternal Return" and "The Overman" seems to be quite a stretch. "On Women" is basically a section on what Bertrand Russell thinks of Nietzsche's occasional remarks about women. "On Evolution" is basically a section on what Dan Dennett happens to think about Nietzsche's understanding of 'Evolution'. These are sub-optimal contributions.

My own feeling is that these sections are something less than the best use of space. Can any other editors offer suggestions? --Picatrix (talk) 00:27, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I would argue that Nietzsche most certainly had a philosophy towards women. Namely, that they should be subordinate servants of men. This is noteworthy, and an important fact for students of philosophy to know. It is not some fleeting opinion, it is a subject he returns to again and again in multiple works. In order for us to have a balanced view of Nietzsche, we must also understand his deep bigotry and philosophical failures, along with his brilliance and erudition. In this case, the latter is put forth in detail, while the former is being discouraged. "Assumptions of good faith notwithstanding" I really must not consider it an "accident" that you wish these less-than-favorable facts about Nietzsche to be removed. The academic critiques from highly respected philosophers such as Russell and Dennett are critical to a well-rounded understanding of Nietzsche's philosophy, both in its strengths and in its error. The sources cited are from academic works. History of Western Philosophy was actually a textbook in my philosophy courses. It's a bit silly to say that these learned works are not up to wiki standards of inclusion, considering the fact that both are used as actual university-level textbooks.

As a biologist, I could have made Nietzsche look far more silly on the matter of natural selection had I wished to do so. I decided to confine the section to Dennett's particular criticisms, as they come from a fellow philosopher. In reality, Nietzsche's profound misunderstanding of evolution is very near laughable, and very relevant to his work.

I can understand why the student of Nietzsche would also be embarrassed by his extreme prejudice towards women, but that is no excuse to minimize this highly important fact about the man. Students of philosophy who check this page should be made aware of Nietzsche's more ugly views.CABlankenship (talk) 00:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I also must point out the attempt to downplay the extent of Nietzsche's fixation with degrading women. I have my copies of Kaufmann's "Portable Nietzsche" and "The Will to Power" here with me, and the truth is, it's difficult to flip through either without stumbling across one of Nietzsche's rants about women. Let's go into more detail.

"Thus Spoke Zarathustra: First Part", p.166-167, Portable Nietzsche (a small sample of a long rant about women): "[T]he bitch...leers enviously out of everything they do...And how nicely the bitch...knows how to beg for a piece of spirit when denied a piece of meat."

Nietzsche then rants a bit about the grandeur of war before picking up again on the subject of women on page 169: "Therefore woman is not yet capable of friendship," "Woman's love involves injustice and blindness against everything that she does not love...Woman is not yet capable of friendship: women are still cats and birds. Or at best cows."

After a bit more discourse about the greatness of manly loyalty and conquest, Nietzsche simply cannot resist another diatribe against women again on page 177-179: "[E]verything about woman has one solution: pregnancy...Man should be educated for war, and woman for the recreation of the warrior; all else is folly...Let woman be a plaything...The happiness of man is: I will. The happiness of wman is: he wills...You are going to woman? Do not forget the whip! Thus spoke Zarathustra."

I suppose these are the "occasional" remarks to which you refer? Unfortunately, these "occasional" remarks just keep coming. It's almost like he can't resist, page 239: "And because we know so little, the poor in spirit please us heartily, particularly when they are young females"

His philosophy is endlessly bigoted in this fashion. P.73 (notes 1880-81) contains a rather vile discussion on why it is proper for women to be obedient.

P.468 (Twilight of the Idols) "Man has created woman--out of what? Out of a rib of his god--of his 'ideal'" "Among women: 'Truth? Oh, you don't know truth!" p.469 "The perfect woman perpetuates literature as she perpetuates sin: as an experiment, in passing, looking around to see if anybody notices it--and to make sure that somebody does." p.470 "Women are considered profound. Why? Because one never fathoms their depths. Women aren't even shallow" "If a woman has manly virtues, one feels like running away; and if she has no manly virtues, she herself runs away."

I could go on and on. As Russell said, Nietzsche "never tires" of such insults. "Occasional"? Clearly, Nietzsche devoted considerable time and effort to such musings, as they are peppered throughout all of his works. It is, in fact, difficult to flip through his work without finding such quotes. "The Will to Power" alone contains no less than 23 sections devoted to women, all of them negative. These are sections 91, 94, 95, 119, 145, 182, 196, 268, 377, 732, 777, 806, 807, 811, 817, 824, 838, 842, 864, 865, 894, 934, and 1009. Occasional?

Perhaps you feel that a section written by an amateur would be superior and preferable to a section written by one of the 20th centuries greatest philosophers and scholars. I can't agree, however. I believe the Russell block should stand, and the section should be expanded, if anything.

Or perhaps you feel that it's simply not worth a serious mention, despite the fact that one of our greatest scholars considered it an important aspect of his philosophy? Again, I can't concur. CABlankenship (talk) 01:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply.

1. Can you cite any sources that suggest that others feel that he had a 'philosophy of women'? If so, I would recommend summary sentences. Again, look to the other paragraphs in the philosophy section as a model.

2. As I pointed out (and I note you did not reply or address this in any way) the rest of the article does not include long blockquotes by other authors. While this does not mean we have to cleave to this precedent, it should be remembered, as pointed out, that some of the editors working here have been trying hard to improve this article overall, rather than focusing on piecemeal and partisan additions. You will note that a previous editor went to some pains to organize the writing in the Philosophy section. You will note that the end of the opening paragraph mentions themes to which scholars have devoted attention. These themes mentioned mirror the list which follows. If you (and other editors) do feel that a section on Nietzsche's putative 'degradation' of women deserves a section, then consider reducing the Russell quote (or better still summarizing) and then providing other information about other points of view. Then go back and integrate the new material so the article does not resemble a chalk board on which things have been scribbled without an overall order. Your sub-optimal (IMO) contribution on 'philosophy of Women' violates NPOV in that it is not balanced. For example, a review of letters accounts written by women who knew Nietzsche during his functional life shows that he was very much liked by them and that he was known for his courtesy and sensitivity with them (e.g. Letter account of Ida von Miaskowski, regarding Nietzsche in 1874; Helen Zimmern, regarding Nietzsche in 1884; Resa von Schirnhofer, regarding Nietzsche in 1884, etc.). Lou Salome, who could be considered as a sort of 'poster child' for women's emancipation and intellectual equality in the 19th century seemed to find him fascinating. Are you sure you are not judging an individual unfairly because you do not take into account the context of the age in which he lived? In any case your contributions are not balanced.

3. My posts and yours are the only ones present in this thread. And I have nowhere written anything about "these learned works" (e.g. Russell, Dennett) not being up to Wikipedia standards. If you are referring to my statement "These are sub-optimal contributions" I meant your contributions were sub-optimal in my opinion, not that Dennett and Russell are sub-optimal citations. Please note the difference in meaning between the words "contribution" and "citation".

4. Your claim that the quote "They abstain, but the bitch, sensuality, leers enviously out of everything they do" relates to women is baffling. Is one to understand that "women" leer out of the eyes of all people who claim to be chaste? Of course not. Sensuality leers out of the eyes of some who claim to be chaste, like a female dog, not like a woman. I note that you chose to remove in your quote the part of the sentence that showed explicitly just what he was talking about. It seems you assume every mention of "bitch" in a text must refer to human women, while the long historical use of the term is attested as referring to female dogs. Hence its use in this metaphor. He presents sensuality as animal and feminine. He does not here "degrade" women. Nor is it a "long rant about women". I should also add that if one wished, one could cobble together a list of long 'rants' composed by Nietzsche regarding just about any segment of humanity. Would this be appropriate in a summary encyclopedia article? I think not. However, if one engaged in the exercise, I suspect a far longer list of negative comments directed at other groups would emerge. Have you collated a list of quotes about his feelings on Germans? Or the English? On Christians? This is not to say that there are not many mentions of women in Nietzsche's writing that are considered misogynist by most people. But opening up this box requires doing the job right. For my part, I do not feel that this effort of yours qualifies.

5. As for your enthusiastic outburst of quotations in the article itself (redundantly placed here as well in keeping with your apparent preference), I have to say that while these may support the axe you clearly have to grind, they don't help with the improvement of an article a number of people have been working hard to improve. How about a summary paragraph on this issue? If you really feel so strongly about it, you can write a complete article on how horrible Nietzsche was with women and link to it from a summary paragraph here. In this way you might be able to better understand the issues that have to balanced in a complete article, rather than focusing on throwing a wrench into other people's editorial efforts. It is also interesting to note that, by far, the largest number of quotes about women which you provide (23, as opposed to 4 - one of which doesn't qualify because it is not about women) are pulled from a book cobbled together under the supervision of a woman, Nietzsche's sister, rather than material which Nietzsche himself published during his functional life.

6. As for Nietzsche's remarks about differences in the way women and men operate, perhaps you might wish to read the works of Cixous, a leading feminist theorist, who presents the idea that women often speak, think, and write differently than men. It has been argued that she developed themes found in a germinal form in Nietzsche's writing (Schrift, A.D., "On the Gynecology of Morals: Nietzsche and Cisoux on the Logic of the Gift", in Nietzsche and the Feminine, Burgard, P.J. (ed.), University of Virginia Press, 1994). There is lots more out there, as you are certainly not the first to pick up this much-handled (and somewhat tiresome) axe. But if you are going to swing it, do it with a purpose, with something akin to precision, and within Wikipedia guidelines.

7. As for your comments about a section written by an "amateur" I have to say that is precisely what we have here. The quote by Russell is not the section, it is a quote within it. There is no section. There's just a sentence that says Nietzsche contempt for women was striking and a consistent theme across his work. Have you familiarized yourself with the work of apologists in this area? What about balance, neutrality, and comprehensiveness? If you want to worship at the altar of Russell (who does have his moments) do it somewhere else, like in the Russell article.

In summary, if you want to add a section on Nietzsche's 'philosophy of women' then sit down and do it properly. Do the necessary research, gather your citations, summarize wherever possible, and create something of use. I spent weeks arguing to get a sentence included here. That sentence was enough, especially since it linked to an article I wrote with very little assistance (at first) that backed it up and expanded the themes more fully, in a neutral way. I didn't jump into the middle of the article to start hacking gaping holes in something we're all (presumably) trying to consistently improve. If you review that exchange you will see that I made my arguments on the talk page first, before making additions - and when I did make additions I did so carefully and paid attention to what other editors had to say. I can only speak for myself, but if you want to contribute meaningfully to the article your current approach is more likely to alienate other editors than to garner their support. Given that you are not paying any attention to flow, phrasing, weight, voice, consistency, citations, balance, layout and overall effect (and that I had to clean up your first contribution) it seems to me you are going to need that support if you want to continue with this project. This is a collective effort. Welcome to the Nietzsche article. --Picatrix (talk) 08:57, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

You can insert or suggest some apologetics if you wish. The samples I read on the "philosophy of Nietzsche" page were laughable, in my opinion. Ironically very similar to Christian Apologetics for the monstrous quotes from the Old Testament. The only one that is even remotely interesting is the claim that he is typical of German philosophers of his age in this regard. Note that 'German' is emphasized, as English and French philosophers of the 19th century showed little if any such bigotry, and the only real comparison on this is Schopenhauer, and to a far more mild extent, Hegel . Other notable German philosophers (Kant, Leibniz, Goethe, Heidegger, &c) all speak highly of women, so this particular canard is just simply wrong. But even if it were true, this would hardly be an excuse. Most Germans in the early 20th century were anti-Semetic, does this excuse that prejudice? Surely not.

As for your stylistic critique, I'll take it into account the next time I edit the article, which will probably be later this evening. As I said, I understand that admirers of Nietzsche are embarrassed by his views on women, and rightly so. It's odd to me that they don't simply find a new intellectual hero, instead of simply ignoring his bigotry and profound errors. It's easy to be wowed by his prose and style, but that's no excuse to try to downplay the aspects of his philosophy that serve to discredit him. He was horribly and fantastically wrong about women. This speaks a great deal to his lack of insight and judge of character on an issue he spent a great deal of time writing about. You mention that he was actually quite kind to women in person, but I believe Russell deals with this in noting Nietzsche's profound cowardice on this issue: "Nine out of ten would get the whip away from him", and I hardly think this serves to his credit. The fact that he lacked the intellectual courage to carry out on his convictions merely shows what a fraud he was. I believe it also forces us to consider other aspects of his "moral philosophy" in a rather different light. Nietzsche in writing was clearly very fond of slavery, oppression, suffering, and domination, but in person was actually very meek and timid. It's easy to see why he had so much contempt for pity, when he himself was such a pitiful figure. Why anyone would defend and attempt to censor these facts is really beyond me, but I'm quite "determined", as you say, to see these facts mentioned. I've seen far too many otherwise well-meaning students of philosophy fail to get a full picture of Nietzsche, while following him down a path that was then difficult for them to reverse. It's hard to admit that someone one admires is actually a monster in many respects. I'm really afraid that I must admit to bias on this issue (I would hope that you would do the same), but I will endeavor to be fair and work with you and the other followers of Nietzsche. Why you would defend this man is something beyond my imagination. He was wrong about nearly everything. I basically concur with Russell that Nietzsche stands highest as a critic and a poet, but not very high as a philosopher or thinker. He really didn't come up with anything new. Most of his work is bastardized Schopenhauer (who was about the same in morality, inferior in prose, superior in philosophy). Nietzsche reminds me of nothing so much as an Old Testament philosopher--barbaric, a throwback to a past that is best left behind. He is an interesting curiosity, a fascinating character study, amusement for the schoolboy, but not worth much time for the serious academic. Fundamentally, he's good entertainment, but a bad intellectual role-model. I should have thought this obvious. Might I suggest Spinoza? CABlankenship (talk) 10:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with some of your statements. As I already wrote in a section above: "It's hard to understand why Nietzsche's radical and antifeministic positions on woman were ignored in this article. They are at least as important as his views on democracy and socialism.". However, the section "On woman" in its current state is not very encyclopedic and should be reduced to a few sentences. How about writing a new article named Nietzsche on Woman? There, the connection between his views on woman and his contempt for the "weak" (as suggested by Hans Vaihinger, Klaus Goch and others), could be discussed. For example, Goch speculates that Nietzsche's depreciatory views on woman are connected with an alleged homosexual constitution.... On the other hand, I think your comments on the value of Nietzsche's philosophy are too extreme - see Nietzsche's influence on Psychoanalysis, Existentialism, Philosophy of Life, etc.. --D.H (talk) 11:51, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not embarrassed by anything Nietzsche wrote, as he's the one who wrote it, not me. I'll thank you not to lump me into a category of 'admirers', or assume 'embarrassment' on my part. Nor am I downplaying any aspects of his philosophy. Nor, further still, am I a follower of anyone. Whether he was horribly or fantastically wrong is not for us to say; as Wikipedia editors our job is to develop encyclopedic content that is neutral, verifiable, and not original research. This is not a forum for discussion of our personal opinions, a chat room, or a place to swap anecdotes. I do not contribute to the "Philosophy of Nietzsche" article, having focused my attention here (so far as Nietzsche is concerned). Hence, you'll have to take up your quibbles about any 'canards' there. As for 'defending' the man I really can't imagine on what basis you have made this assumption. I can only suppose that taking this approach has to do with obviating any need to answer the actual issues I raised, which had to do with the hamfisted placement of a slop bucket of quotes into the article without any concern for what it does to the overall presentation. Rather than sharing with me your personal opinions, how about fixing the mess you have made of the article? By this I do not mean a 'mess' in the sense that you have struck a noble blow against Nietzsche's misogynistic, childish, and power-addled 'followers'. I mean you made a mess of the article through your complete disregard for the work everyone here has done. If you want to clean up the accident you call a contribution you are welcome to. If you want to hazard sophomoric psychological assessments of 'followers' then write and publish your own material then cite it here. One can only assume that your statement that Nietzsche is "amusement for the schoolboy" is sufficient justification, in your eyes, for the quality of your work. In the meantime, I am removing the passages you have added based on the fact that they violate NPOV (including bias, undue weight, impartial tone and balance). I should emphasize that I am not removing them because of what they say. I am removing them because of what they do not say. If you want to replace them, then please make some attempt to round out your contributions by presenting a complete picture. NPOV applies as much to particular sections as it does to the article as a whole. If you want to address the issue of Nietzsche's comments about women, as I said before, then finish what you started. Use the sandbox in order to get your material ready for placement. As Wikipedia NPOV guidelines state: "All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view) — what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence. When editorial bias toward one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed." It's not my job to fix your sloppy and biased contributions. It's yours. Therefore, you need to do the work of presenting all sides of the issue if you want to add this material. --Picatrix (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Now, now...calm down. No reason to get catty. I assumed you were an "admirer" of Nietzsche from the fact that you quote him in your profile. I'll simply ignore your "sophomoric" personal attacks, and chalk it up to Nietzschean disdain for the "lower masses" such as myself. Übermensch such as yourself have to learn to be patient with those of us who have yet to evolve to your level. CABlankenship (talk) 22:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Some of the recent edits are, in my opinion, patently inane: "they recognize that however odious his individual opinion of women may have been, he was not advocating it as a model for others" which suggests in no uncertain terms that this is the 'proper' way to view Nietzsche's comments. I don't see any reason at all to believe that he was not advocating it as a model for others, in fact, the opposite surely seems to be the case.

Regardless, I'm fine with the edit as it stands, although I think Pictrix's bias shines through his attempt to be neutral. It's clear from the edit where his sympathies lie. CABlankenship (talk) 01:20, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the words of support! I hear there's lots of work remaining to be done on 'hard' scientific articles here at Wikipedia. Biology and whatnot. I'm sure you've got a lot to contribute in that field. Good luck! --Picatrix (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks in return! I'm pretty new to wiki and haven't learned all of the formatting procedures, but with the help of scholars like yourself perhaps I can find something of value to contribute. I must however admit that postmodernist philosophy is not my particular taste, and without your learning I would have been unaware of their defense of Nietzsche's comments on women. Who knew he was actually a feminist? Thanks Derrida! What a genius. CABlankenship (talk) 03:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

On women, On evolution

In regards to this edit [1]:

• These subjects form no part of N.' core philosophy and are thus misplaced at best.
• As selected critiques of his thinking they belong, if anywhere, here.
• They are overblown and need to be shortened to comply with WP:undue weight (they are at least twice as long as the core subjects like "Will to Power").
• They are unbalanced and need neutralization to comply with WP:NPOV. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 15:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your subjective opinions on this matter. CABlankenship (talk) 01:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Alcmaeonid. 1. I questioned (above) whether or not there was any point in going into 'Nietzsche on women' in the philosophy section, noting that I did not believe this subject was related to his core philosophy. However CABlankenship insisted on advancing a negative assessment and I attempted to balance the picture. While what I posted may well still be unbalanced, in comparison to the edit it was intended to replace: [2] , I can only consider it as an improvement - if a rather long-winded one. 2. As I noted in my Edit summary when placing the content that was there, this was intended as a basis for the creation of a summary paragraph and the full content should be placed on a sub page. I'm fine with it being removed or placed somewhere else. 3. If it does stay, it should certainly be a summary paragraph, in keeping with the other entries under the Philosophy section - again, I spoke in favor of this at the outset. 4. I do not doubt that the content, wherever it might end up being placed, if it is kept, can certainly benefit from the input of other editors in making it more neutral and balanced - particularly as regards voice. --Picatrix (talk) 01:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

You're making a subjective judgment based on what you consider to be part of his philosophy. Many people, including respected scholars and philosophers, consider Nietzsche's apparent bigotry to be an important fact for understanding his overall world-view and philosophy. It's also surely relevant that Nietzsche had a very confused understanding of evolution, particularly since we can hopefully all agree that it was a dominant theme throughout TSZ, at least. Much of TSZ is very near evolutionary philosophy, and this aspect should be discussed. While it's certainly true that my original topics were one-sided (I admitted that I don't like Nietzsche), I felt that these were important issues that deserved front-page attention.

Deleting the material -- which was soundly researched, relevant, and interesting -- is somewhat petulant. It's clear that the three of us have different opinions on the best stylistic design for a page. It's an artistic dispute, perhaps?

Several times now, the argument has been made that Nietzsche's comments on women do not constitute a part of his philosophy. Obviously, reasonable people can differ on this point. Russell seemed to think it right to include these comments in his summary of Nietzsche's philosophy, which surely carries enough weight and authority to grant it access to a wiki section on the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CABlankenship (talk • contribs) 02:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I should also add that philosophy is merely a casual interest of mine -- mostly as it relates to biology -- so you will have to assume that professional remarks such as "These subjects form no part of N.' core philosophy" will probably escape my layman knowledge. You will have to expand on these (I'm sure) highly technical points. CABlankenship (talk) 02:59, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

While my objections to edits that read poorly and constitute a "stylistic" disjunction stand (people have to read the material, and presentation is a recognized aspect of content) I suggest that these edits be removed until consensus can be reached here. Russell is not an editor working with other editors on this article, and his knowledge of Nietzsche's philosophy, to say nothing of its depth, is hardly exemplary. In any case, the issues here have to do with neutrality and placement. This is not an "artistic dispute". Alcmaeonid is quite right in asserting that this content belongs on the 'Influence and Reception' page. Every single one of these comments by others reflects an aspect of how his thought was received. I am not suggesting that a compromise position cannot be reached, however, until this occurs, the content should be removed. --Picatrix (talk) 07:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Please point out precise examples from my current entries that violate placement and neutrality, else we are at a stalemate. Wiki is a community effort, so we can either work together by combining our respective knowledge, or we can bicker and fight over trivial details. CABlankenship (talk) 08:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that both of these issues (women and biology) were uncontroversially present on the Philosophy of Nietzche page until I added a section on the front page. CABlankenship (talk) 08:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

For my part, I feel we're getting somewhere. The edits are an improvement. I should also clarify: my dissatisfaction is with the 'Nietzsche on women' going in the philosophy section on the main page. As I stated at the beginning I feel a case can easily be made for discussion of 'Evolution' in relation to Nietzsche's thought. This, in my opinion, deserves attention. I'm going to break my remarks up into two sections below. Before doing so, I'd like to clarify further my problems with your initial edits; hopefully once and for all. I do this only in the interests of setting a foundation for constructive editorial collaboration. What I find so irritating about your initial edits is that they conveyed to me a sense of someone who was 'more sure than right' coming to share a dubious certainty with benighted dimwits. I've done this myself a number of times, and hence feel qualified to recognize it. Second, my own editorial attitude is that one must suspend disbelief to a certain degree when trying to determine the best editorial course. This is why in my discussion (as in the 'German' question on the talk page for this article) I often go back and forth, and I am willing to abandon positions I find are no longer sustainable. I'm happy to admit when I am wrong - it's only necessary that I see it. Most people claim to take this approach, in my experience few actually do. Whether you will credit it or not, I myself feel that Nietzsche's was capable of great intentional subtlety and was inclined to scatter ambiguity like mines. As a result, I tend to regard any editorial approach to his work that fails to take this into account as counterproductive 'noise'. Nietzsche's ambiguity is exacerbated by an intentional and highly provocative style. Bear this in mind while also remembering we are dealing with a man who made the study of where concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' come from the focus of his work. I hope you will recognize the implications of this for anyone who wants to stroll in and take shocking statements at face value, or apply categories such as 'right' and 'wrong' to Nietzsche's work. If one really wants to fiddle about with Nietzsche you have to approach him with an open mind. In my opinion, anyone who is not willing to do so isn't really here to help.

1. Nietzsche and women. I actually looked at the secondary literature. While you posted a citation that suggests Nietzsche was a basically an asshole who had serious problems with women, I cited material that shows a whole range of opinions. There really is a range of opinions. Though you sneer and cry "Derrida"!, they deserve serious attention. After looking over the way in which male and female, active and passive - metaphors - can be mapped to other life-affirming and life-denying metaphors, and thinking about Nietzsche's reiteration of themes related to men and war (killing) and women and pregnancy (giving birth) some of the citations I provided suggesting subtlety made more sense. There is absolutely no shortage of citations suggesting that women play a role in his philosophy. But this is not the same thing as a philosophy of women. I think the main article could benefit from a brief and summary discussion of citable ideas about the role of women in his thought, perhaps linking to a secondary page. But I think only by doing the necessary work can we determine where that would go (under his philosophy, biography, etc.). You and Bertrand Russell feel he was an asshole because he said mean things about the ladies. For my part I think he said mean things about everyone (with an end in mind). By my lights misogyny is trumped by misanthropy. It's hard to say Nietzsche had problems with women in the face of the fact that he had problems with everyone. If, for example, I hate men and women equally can I be said to be a misogynist? We would have to gather together citations in order to see where the preponderance of citable, verifiable opinion lies, then weight a summary paragraph accordingly, and link to whatever sub page is appropriate. Again, women playing a role in his philosophy is not the same as him having a philosophy of women. Nietzsche discusses digestion (perhaps in a Neo-Larckian context, and with considerable significance) far, far more often than he makes arguably derisive remarks about women. And yet no one has suggested we add a summary paragraph on digestion in the philosophy section. If you argue notability and point out that no one is pissed off about digestion, while people are pissed off about 'misogyny' then again the material has no place in the philosophy section, and instead belongs in the 'influence and reception' article because its notability is based on the reaction it caused.

2. Nietzsche and biology (or 'Evolution'). I think this subject really does deserve attention, and a lot of it. However, in its current form the section on Nietzsche and 'evolution' seems to me based on an editorial policy that cannot be supported. I would support a discussion of Nietzsche's 'biological' thinking (and there is a lot of it) contextualized and explicated in the light of what we know today about phylogenesis. I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s. Furthermore, if we are going to dig into this subject it is necessary to clarify a number of issues for the general reader. 'Evolution' in the sense of verifiable, consecutive changes to life over time in response to environmental factors, and the interrelationship of all life on this basis, is not questioned by serious scientists. I've read nothing that suggests Nietzsche questioned it (and I'm sure we can find citations and support for this). But while there are well-established probabilities, as regards exactly what environmental factors exert selective pressure, and how it is exerted, we're still dealing with real live theories - even today. In this respect there still are no 'truths' so thoroughly tested and verified that the possibility of their being called into question does not exist. And, so far as I know, it was in this area of 'the question' that Nietzsche (thought he?) differed from Darwin. I've been gathering citations. I don't want to be 'more sure than right'. As you are a biologist I would be very pleased indeed to have your help in putting together material that relates to Nietzsche and biology. I would even like to see a whole article on just this. But, as far as my vote is concerned, writing up half-assed 'Nietzsche was wrong' paragraphs is a non-starter. The current version that's up says (more-or-less) 'Nietzsche's thinking on biology was out of step and wrong' with a couple of transparent 'neutrality patches'. Can you not see that this is entirely unjustifiable without first describing, from an informed position, just what he thought and how it differed from what is today 'accepted'? Can you not see how partisan (and stupid) these edits appear in the absence of support? The reader should be permitted to make up his or her mind based on a summary of Nietzsche's thought, in a citable, verifiable and neutral context. What were his thoughts on biology? Can you offer me more citations than a regurgitation of Dennett? For my part I'll offer a few that I've dug up:

(John Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism, Oxford University Press, 2004) Richardson argues that Nietzsche was "deeply and pervasively influenced by Darwin", and that some of his ideas have "a clearer and stronger sense when set on the scientific ground he takes from Darwin."

(Jean Gayon, "Nietzsche and Darwin", in Biology and the Foundation of Ethics, Jane Maienschein, Michael Ruse (Eds.), Cambridge University Press, 1999) p160: "Before we turn to [Nietzsche's] criticisms specifically directed at Darwin, we must deal with the embarrassing issue of whether or not Nietzsche ever read Darwin. In spite of a number of studies on this subject, there is no definitive answer. It is certain that Nietzsche read "A Biographical Sketch of an Infant" (Darwin 1877), because he recommended it warmly to Paul Ree in a letter dated 1877, with a precise reference to Mind. But there is no direct evidence that he actually read even one book by Darwin. He never cited a precise quotation or reference, although that was his common pattern regarding almost all authors. It is likely that he consulted The Variation of Animals and Plants under Domestication, for Richter (1911) mentions some sentences that could hardly have come from anywhere else. It also seems hardly possible that he never read The Descent of Man, in view of his repeated criticisms of the Darwinian theory of the origins of moral behavior. As for The Origin of Species, I tend to believe that Nietzsche did not seriously read that work, but again, direct evidence is lacking. In fact, Nietzsche's knowledge of Darwin's ideas relied essentially, if not exclusively, on German accounts and/or criticisms."

(George J. Stack, Lange and Nietzsche, Walter de Gruyter, 1983) p156: "The relation between Nietzsche and Darwin is a curious and complex one. Probably the earliest contact that Nietzsche had with the then new and revolutionary theory of evolution was in reading Lange's critical discussion of Darwinismus und Teleologie. In this discussion Lange is clearly sympathetic with the essentials of Darwin's theory and accepts without quarrel its anti-teleological consequences. As we shall see, Nietzsche adopted a Darwinian understanding of Man's place in nature, his descent from animal forms, his use of tools for defence (reason) and the employment of "dissimulation" for the sake of survival. To be sure, he does not by any means end in a Darwinian standpoint nor does he agree with Darwin that adaptation for the sake of survival alone is the essential characteristic of living beings. In this regard he is justified in mocking the idea that he is a follower of Darwin in Ecce Homo. Nonetheless, there are a number fundamental notions that are retained in Nietzsche's philosophy that are at least related to Darwinian theory."

(F. Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra, (trans. by Thomas Common) Courier Dover Publications, 1999) p258: "to understand his position correctly we must show his relationship to the two greatest of modern evolutionists - Darwin and Spencer. As a philosopher, however Nietzsche does not stand or fall by his objections to the Darwinian or Spencerian cosmogony. He never laid claim to a very profound knowledge of biology, and his criticism is far more valuable as the attitude of a fresh mind than as that of a specialist towards the question. Moreover, in his objections many difficulties are raised which are not settled by an appeal to either of the men above mentioned."

(Dan Stone, Breeding Superman: Nietzsche, Race and Eugenics in Edwardian and Interwar Britain, Liverpool University Press, 2002) - Discussing Mügge's work on Nietzsche (M.A. Mügge 1909) p74: "The issue of consciousness in selection was in fact the thing that Nietzsche believed differentiated his idea of evolution from Darwin's. Neitzsche thought that the ideas of 'natrual selection' and the 'survival of the fittest' were too random to be relied upon, if one was interested in human progress. For otherwise 'the fittest' could easily be the herd, whose safety in numbers secures their propagation. In fact, Mügge was perspicacious in recognizing so early on in the history of Darwinism that Nietzsche's ideas are actually closer to Darwin's than he (Nietzsche) thought, and that the Darwin that Nietzsche attacked was more a popularly received Darwin than the ideas of Darwin himself. Mügge's view, that Nietzsche and Darwin were actually rather close, is one that has been recently confirmed." (He cites here Keith Ansell-Pearson, Viroid Life: Perspectives on Nietzsche and the Transhuman Condition, London, Routledge, 1997, p87) --Picatrix (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

N.'s core philosophy may loosely be defined as what he considered important and new and wrote about specifically and intentionally at length. These are as listed in the Philosophy section. He had no "philosophy" on women. What we know about his ideas on this subject are via an editor's selection and aggregation of incidental entries from various places scattered throughout his writings. This approach leaves much to be desired. His ideas about women are complex and subject to geographical and historical exigencies. An interesting section could be written about it (but not grouped with the core philosophical subjects) rounded out with many voices, both critical and apologetic. The correct place for a full expansion of these, (as I stated above) is at the critical reception article.

Nietzsche's understanding and use of the relatively new theories of evolution is a subject of much more complexity than your edit allows. After all, how many thinkers of his era had a good grasp of this emerging, many times confusing, constellation of ideas? This also would make a good topic - over at "Influence & Reception."

Remember, this article is introductory and should only contain summary information that can be further expanded in the sub-articles (thus my paring down of the Russell quotes).

I understand that you have issues with Nietzsche. But your edits must comply with the WP:NPOV parameters. Please be vigilant about not using Wikipedia as a soap box for your personal views per WP:SOAP. Regards. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 16:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

My apologies. The above entry was written before Picatrix's preceding post and was addressed to Mr. Blankenship. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Picatrix: Please examine how we came to a general consensus on the issue of Nietzsche and woman. I gathered a few facts and some Russell and posted it. You came in with a superior edit which I then allowed to stand, with a few minor reservations. I have not quibbled with or contested your edits on this matter at all. We now seem to be in a purely semantical dispute over whether or not it is a part of his philosophy. That this subject belonged in the philosophy section was not controversial until I added a section on the front page. This is question-begging, and leads me to wonder if we are more concerned with providing information, or with marginalizing unpleasant aspects of Nietzsche.

Please consider that if we look at post-enlightenment philosophy, Nietzsche is easily the most misogynistic great intellectual. Only Schopenhauer comes close to challenging him on this claim, but he ranks a distant second in both frequency and vehemence. To find a challenge to Nietzsche in this regard, we can only turn to Islamic, Ancient Hebrew, and Christian philosophy. This is a very noteworthy fact. Regardless, our only dispute now seems to be whether or not there should be a link about this on the front page in the philosophy section. Surely your fine entry dealing with how we might interpret Nietzsche's comments on women constitutes a mostly philosophical discussion. If this is not part of Nietzsche's 'philosophy' it's surely not part of his 'influence and reception' (whatever we might think that means). And if his comments on women were not present in his philosophy, I'm at a loss as to how we might classify them.

Nietzsche's views on evolution simply cannot be understood unless we have a fundamental grasp of several facts.

1) Like every pre-mendelian thinker, he was unaware of the proper unit and means of heredity. The error of assuming Lamarckian inheritance was common until the 20th century.

2) Nietzsche, Darwin, &c, were unaware of the correct age of the earth. Darwin was operating under the assumption that it was several hundred-million years old; we can only guess that Nietzsche accepted this view, as the truth was not known until many years after their deaths. The foremost authority on this subject, Kelvin, actually proclaimed the earth to be only 100 million years old.

These two facts cast doubt during Darwin's time and until the relatively recent present on whether or not Natural Selection could serve as the primary means of explaining the vast variation of species that we see today. Natural Selection is a necessarily slow-moving process by theory and action, and so it was wondered if there was really enough time for Darwin's theory to be a true factor.

In discussing Nietzsche's philosophy on evolution, it's certainly relevant to discuss whether or not he was correct. The fact remains, Nietzsche based his theories on highly flawed and now completely disproved pre-suppositions. The entire backbone of his ideas on how we might create an overman are not simply subjectively wrong, they are objectively wrong. It is not a violation of neutrality to discuss this matter in an article about Nietzsche and his foray into the subject of biology. I seriously wonder if would gain such resistance in an article whose subject was not a hero of the postmodern movement; notorious for its relativistic challenges on rational inquiry and the scientific method.

While it shouldn't matter that Nietzsche himself loudly condemned the notion that he was a Darwinist (since he really didn't understand Darwin at all, so could have been wrong), he most certainly did not qualify as a true Darwinist. His finest comments that agree with modern science are respectfully added to my entry. Nevertheless, I believe it's impossible to understand Nietzsche's position on biology without pointing out his errors. Likewise, an article that discusses purely Nietzsche's opinions does nothing to instruct the layman reader as to whether he was right or wrong. Again, this is not a matter for postmodern relativism, it's simple science. CABlankenship (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

A review of your sources on Nietzsche, Darwin, and Evolution:

John Richardson is a professor of philosophy, but unlike Dennett he speaks with no authority on the subject of biology. This is an obscure source which seems unnecessary.

Jean Gayon is more noteable, but he fundamentally agrees with the position both of myself and Dennett. That is: Nietzsche was ignorant of Darwin. I have no objection to additions from this source.

George Stack is another philosophy professor well-known for his academic work on Nietzsche. Nevertheless, he speaks with zero authority on biology, and we are best to ignore his efforts in this regard. As John Maynard Smith once said "As a biologist, I'm used to being misunderstood by philosophers."

The Thomas Common introduction is telling: he clearly realizes that Nietzsche was simply wrong about biology, and so he encourages us to ignore this error. While he is correct that neither Darwin nor Spencer had the knowledge to refute Nietzsche's claims on biology, we happily have modern science which has thoroughly discredited Nietzsche's views. I see no value in adding this opinion and apologetics.

Dan Stone is correct. Nietzsche did misunderstand Darwin and actually did agree with him on several points where he falsely believed he had disagreement. This fact is already brought to light in my current article. However, on several points (but not all) where Darwin and Nietzsche agreed, both happened to be wrong and were dealing with false assumptions.

My article on this subject already details where Nietzsche agreed with Darwin (and was correct), where he disagreed with Darwin (and was wrong), and where he agreed with Darwin and both men were wrong. CABlankenship (talk) 22:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Please check my sources on the current paragraph. Since I doubt consensus will be reached on the 'philosophy' subject, and as I don't consider this an important point, why don't we create a new "Other Writings" category? I don't believe that discussions on Nietzsche's work belong in the "influence and reception" category. CABlankenship (talk) 08:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

CABlankenship: Now I'm not so encouraged. We did not reach "general consensus"; you and I, just two editors, reached a temporary consensus. There are, believe it or not, other people working on this article as a long-term project. Your eagerness to dismiss some sources as having 'no value', while claiming others are 'correct' is a rather curious attitude for a Wikipedia editor. In fact, it flies in the face of balance, impartial tone and good research standards.

1. Deciding where content goes in a fairly large cluster of encyclopedic articles is not a "semantical dispute". In fact it has much in common with a biologist's taxonomy, or a librarian's cataloguing system. If you still think I want to marginalize "unpleasant aspects of Nietzsche" I feel rather a fool, as it is clear I've wasted my time: you didn't answer any of the points I raised, as I've noted in regard to your other replies. Instead, you ignored them in favor of your editorial program. All my remarks were intended to break the communication deadlock and work constructively. Returning to the point, the importance of organization is doubled in the case of the Nietzsche material on Wikipedia, given the large number of sub-articles that link out from this one. Your editorial contributions and the amount of work (absence of it, really) which you bring to bear in their support do not bode well for overall restructuring of multiple articles based on your thoughts on where content should go. This will affect a number of other editors.

2. Suggesting that Nietzsche was a misogynist of such monstrous dimensions that he can only be compared to "Islamic, Ancient Hebrew or Christian philosophy" not only suggests a fundamental ignorance of Nietzsche's thought, it also shows clearly how your editorial approach is riddled with retrospective value judgments that take no account of historical context. For example, in the cultural sphere in question, with the emergence of Islam, women for the first time were recognized as having legal rights like the ability to initiate a divorce on their own, as well as recognition of property rights and inheritance. I should also point out that you might find other people are less than satisfied with your regular use of the term 'philosophy' in the broadest possible context (e.g. 'attitude', 'assumption', 'religious belief', 'personal feeling'). It makes it difficult to establish shared definition: a critical feature of collaboration. Again, not just a "semantical dispute'.

3. My very quickly cobbled together entry on Nietzsche and women was intended as a temporary basis for the creation of a summary paragraph, as I noted when I posted it. It is not a "mostly philosophical discussion", but is rather what Alcmaeonid called it above; it is "an editor's selection and aggregation of incidental entries from various places scattered throughout his writings. This approach leaves much to be desired." For someone who called some of what it contained "patently inane" it seems a rather abrupt change of course to call it "a fine entry".

4. Please actually read what has been written. No one has said that Nietzsche's comments about women were not to be found in his philosophical writings. The point instead hinged on whether he had a 'philosophy of women'. I refer you again, with growing frustration, to my mention of the theme of 'digestion'.

5. You also seem to have entirely missed the points I made about Nietzsche and biology. As I am not a biologist, and therefore, according to you, I have nothing to say on the matter (as evidenced by your dismissal of citations that don't come from biologists), I'll simply suggest that you re-read what I posted.

6. As for your latest edits, I'm forced to ask how it is that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin if he had not read him. I also feel obliged to point out (again with a growing sense of frustration) that once again your entry fails to discuss what Nietzsche thought, and instead offers up a trite list of unsupported statements without citation, except for a rather free use of the ones I provided together with your original Dennett, which you seem to feel is sacred and inviolable, and sufficient to establish consensus across the globe. However, I should point out that you went far, far further as an editor than any of those sources allows, without adding any new ones of your own. Please re-read my previous remarks above, wherein I underlined that "I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s." I find the fact that you have been thumping the same two books with zeal to be disconcerting and indicative of a lack of sophistication in your editorial approach. No one said you could not use Dennett or Russell as sources, it has simply been pointed out that you have to balance and contextualize these citations and put your additions in the right places.

7. You write: "My article on this subject already details where Nietzsche agreed with Darwin (and was correct), where he disagreed with Darwin (and was wrong), and where he agreed with Darwin and both men were wrong." Please note that what you have written is a section, not an article. I still highly recommend that your write an entire (Wiki) article on your own so that you'll gain a better understanding of what it entails. If, and I emphasize if, there is any basis for your confident assertion that Nietzsche offered "wholesale support for Lamarck's doctrine" what then of those who have asserted in recent times that aspects of Lamarck's model probably did (and do) have scientific merit and hence have not been "proven false". You can have a look here [[3]]. However, if you want to argue against the assertions in that article, please do it there. Epigenetic inheritance, whatever its significance, would appear to suggest that the door has not been shut upon Lamarck so firmly as you suggest.

8. For my part I see no need or an 'other writings' category. You'll have to see how other editors feel.

I'm just one editor here, as you know, and you are simply another. I suggest we call for suggestions from other editors in order to attempt to establish consensus.

All my objections to your biased editorial program (neutrality issues) and disregard for overall placement and organization stand - particularly since you continue to claim that somebody wants to 'suppress' the ugly truth about Nietzsche, instead of addressing each of the points I raise.

--Picatrix (talk) 09:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I can only say that you have obviously failed to read my sources on the biology section. Your statement that I have not produced any sources other than your own is odd, considering I only used your sources in support of my own (Darwin, Dennett, and Kaufmann), with additional links to the direct Nietzsche quotes in discussion, including page numbers. Exact page numbers are given for all sources, for you to verify at your leisure. I was hoping that we could increase the civility of this work, but it's now clear that having gotten off on the wrong foot, you are determined to stay there with your misrepresentations and obfuscations.

On the matter of Nietzsche and women, I point out that you wrote the article. You continue to harp on issues where I have long since conceded the point. "With growing frustration", I notice that you are more interested in personal attacks than in improving this article. I will now address a few of your points on biology.

1)"As I am not a biologist, and therefore, according to you, I have nothing to say on the matter" -- To the contrary, I never said "you have nothing to say on the matter", I unequivocally said the opposite. What I did say was that a few of your sources were of lesser value and authority, and that their erroneous opinions on Nietzsche are easily refuted by careful study of my source material, including that from Kaufmann, Nietzsche himself, and Dennett. Pages were given so that you may read these sources for yourself. I will explain them if you wish, but if you do not understand these issues and will not read the sources, perhaps you should retire from the biology section of this article and await someone with a superior understanding of these issues.

2)"I emphasize if, there is any basis for your confident assertion that Nietzsche offered 'wholesale support for Lamarck's doctrine'" -- This is unambiguously true, as backed up by my sources listed at the end of my paragraph. I would be hesitant to point out your "fundamental ignorance" of Nietzsche on this completely objective point had you only not been so eager to throw this accusation at myself over the subjective matter of Nietzsche's views on women. Only someone who lacked anything even remotely resembling an understanding of the scholarship on the issue of Nietzsche and Biology would not be aware of this point. See Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293 -- Dan Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, p.182, 461-467 -- Nietzsche, The Will to Power, s.647-649, 684-686 -- Nietzsche, The Gay Science s.99 -- John Richardson, "Nietzsche's New Darwinism", p.16-18.

In The Gay Science (99), Nietzsche explicitly names Lamarck to defend him against Schopenhauer, while in a later note (xvi, 9) He describes Hegel and Lamarck as having a truer doctrine of evolution than Darwin's. Against Darwin he urged the Lamarckian doctrine of the heredity of acquired characteristics--the very doctrine the Nazi's never tired of branding as a Bolschevistic lie, because, as they frankly admitted, it would invalidate their entire racism. -- Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293

This source is given in my refs at the end of the paragraph.

3)"what then of those who have asserted in recent times that aspects of Lamarck's model probably did (and do) have scientific merit and hence have not been 'proven false'." The idea of a transfer of 'memes' is somewhat Lamarkian, but it has nothing to do with biological inheritance. The idea of acquired traits being heritable by off-spring is completely disproved. One of the more stunning examples of this was the Lysenko debacle: Lysenkoism

4)"Epigenetic inheritance, whatever its significance, would appear to suggest that the door has not been shut upon Lamarck so firmly as you suggest." -- Epigenetic inheritance in Eukaryote cells has no bearing on the question of heritable traits in sexual organisms. Nothing in epigenetics has anything to do with acquired traits such as the ones proposed by Nietzsche. While there is some use in using Lamarckism as a sort of metaphor for memes, this has nothing to do with Nietzsche's position, or the position of other pre-20th century Lamarckists. CABlankenship (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Further replies to Pictrix's:

Pictrix quoted in italics.

2. Suggesting that Nietzsche was a misogynist of such monstrous dimensions that he can only be compared to "Islamic, Ancient Hebrew or Christian philosophy" not only suggests a fundamental ignorance of Nietzsche's thought, it also shows clearly how your editorial approach is riddled with retrospective value judgments that take no account of historical context. For example, in the cultural sphere in question, with the emergence of Islam, women for the first time were recognized as having legal rights like the ability to initiate a divorce on their own, as well as recognition of property rights and inheritance. I should also point out that you might find other people are less than satisfied with your regular use of the term 'philosophy' in the broadest possible context (e.g. 'attitude', 'assumption', 'religious belief', 'personal feeling'). It makes it difficult to establish shared definition: a critical feature of collaboration. Again, not just a "semantical dispute'.

The suggestion you mention was not a part of my editorials. It was part of this discussion page, offered up for your consideration in making my point. How this reflects on my alleged editorial "retrospective value judgements" is beyond me, as this was never present in my section pieces.

4. Please actually read what has been written. No one has said that Nietzsche's comments about women were not to be found in his philosophical writings. The point instead hinged on whether he had a 'philosophy of women'. I refer you again, with growing frustration, to my mention of the theme of 'digestion'.

Indeed, "with growing frustration", I note that while I am willing to consider and compromise on the issue of placement, you are not. You have yet to respond to my opinion that sections on Nietzsche's writings are misplaced in the "influence and reception" section.

6. As for your latest edits, I'm forced to ask how it is that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin if he had not read him. I also feel obliged to point out (again with a growing sense of frustration) that once again your entry fails to discuss what Nietzsche thought, and instead offers up a trite list of unsupported statements without citation, except for a rather free use of the ones I provided together with your original Dennett, which you seem to feel is sacred and inviolable, and sufficient to establish consensus across the globe. However, I should point out that you went far, far further as an editor than any of those sources allows, without adding any new ones of your own. Please re-read my previous remarks above, wherein I underlined that "I would not support a discussion of how Nietzsche 'measures up' to the 'theory of evolution'. The 'philosophy' section of the main article is about what Nietzsche thought, not how it compares to what we know today, or even how it compared to Darwin's still-controversial theories in the 1870s and 80s." I find the fact that you have been thumping the same two books with zeal to be disconcerting and indicative of a lack of sophistication in your editorial approach. No one said you could not use Dennett or Russell as sources, it has simply been pointed out that you have to balance and contextualize these citations and put your additions in the right places.

Why would having not read an author prevent Nietzsche from misunderstanding him? Surely being unfamiliar with someones direct work would encourage such misunderstandings, and such misunderstandings are transparently documented in my sources. While you are correct that there is some controversy (mostly from creationists) regarding evolution, the scientific consensus on this score is well-known. You are making very little effort to increase your understanding of these issues to the level even of the educated layman on biology and Nietzsche. I must say that these confusions on your part speak to a large degree on the irony of your accusation that I show a "fundamental ignorance" of Nietzsche. CABlankenship (talk) 11:06, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Notice also that while I initially was dubious of your citation of John Richardson's Nietzsche's New Darwinism (where you quoted a review of the book -- you clearly have not read it yourself), I did something that seems alien to you: I read your source. I went out and bought the book, and I'm now reading it. As you can see, I'm now sourcing him in support of my pre-existing citations. Small sample on the points of agreement between all of my sources, including Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18 :

Tellingly, he seems not to have required of himself a direct aquaintance with Darwin's own writings before addressing his attacks...Also, tellingly, even Spencer he has only in translation...So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...Often, Nietzsche's 'corrections' bring him to points Darwin already holds...Other of Nietzsche's criticisms and amendments are wrong not only about Darwin, but about the facts, as we know them; on these points Darwin has been confirmed, and Nietzsche's doubts carry no weight: (1) he argues, against the efficacy of selection [which is] answered by Mendelian inheritance. (2) He carries much further a Lamarckism that Darwin also accepts, but uses much less...[Nietzsche is lead to] stress the inheritability of aquired traits. Nietzche tends to blur or ignore the difference between genetic and cultural inherigance. This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology.

These points have also been sourced (and posted) with agreement from Dan Dennett, Kaufmann, and my other refs. Dispute of my entry has not been, up to this point, at all reasonable or informed. CABlankenship (talk) 14:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

In recent years it has become known that Friedrich Nietzsche for a periode of his life used a typewriter. In 1882 he bought a so called Hansen Writing Ball from the Danish inventor, Rasmus Malling-Hansen. On several websites on the internet one can read about Nietzsche and his writing ball, that still exists. A German, Dieter Eberwein, has restored and repaired Nietzsche's old typewriter, and has written a book about the machine and published the appr. 60 typescripts that are known to exist. See here: [www.eberwein-typoskriptverlag.de]

Wouldn't it be of interest to the readers of wikipedia to read about this incident in Nietzsche's life? As I have read, Nietzsche himself claimed that the use of a typewriter influenced on his way of expressing himself. I hope I can be allowed to write a little text about Nietzsche and his typewriter.

--Sverre avnskog (talk) 16:37, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Nietzsche simply viewed women as secondary--even saying they have "an instinct for the secondary". What this means is that while Woman does play a very important role in the development of Man into the Superman, Woman herself has no goal other than to help man achieve his goal--a compass, in and of itself, has no purpose except to help someone find their way. Therefore, his argument against feminism was very similiar to his argument against Christianity--that it is a hinderance to the instinctual drives of man and an obstacle in the way of Man becoming Superman.

"What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what is lovable in man is that he is an OVER-GOING and a DOWN-GOING."

In the course of this 'over-going' and 'down-going' women act as a sort of compass. The closer a man is to being the Superman, the more attractive women will find him and the more control he will possess of both females and his own feminity. See: Malakia.

I'd like to add that it doesn't surprise me in the least that CABlankenship is a man--I would be very, very suprised to read a woman making the same arguments.

User:CABlankenship

I think the time has come to discuss what this editing community should be doing about User:CABlankenship and his admitted negative intentions here. Although his behavior smacks of being a troll, I have no definitive proof of this. With my lack of experience in wiki-politics, I frankly have no idea of the what, when and hows of procedure. Yet, as the discussions above show, he is a tendentious editor intent on pursuing a strict agenda: discrediting Nietzsche. On this page he assumes bad faith and adopts a sarcastic and condescending tone, totally unconducive to constructive dialog. I know Picatrix has especially tried to engage him in lengthy discussions which have proved unfruitful.

In my opinion he needs recuse himself from editing here. Barring that I think we need to take some kind of action. Please speak up and let me know what you all think. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. A student of biology, using a source like Richardson only when it comes to biology while writing on Nietzsche? At most times relying on Russell? That's, obviously, in now way good faith. Why on earth is he claiming to watch philosophy students come to a misunderstanding of Nietzsche? A biology student knows Nietzsche well and philosophers don't? Russell as an expert on Nietzsche? Women are a major part of Nietzsche's philosophy? This is utter rubbish. Someone at Wikipedia needs to step in here, clearly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HAL0002000 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. I admitted that I don't think highly of Nietzsche personally, but this has not effected my article on Biology. If you would bother to check my authoritative and impeccable sources, all of which are in agreement, you would realize your error. You have made no effort at all to either work with me at this subject, describe your problems with my paragraph, or do anything other than random deletes of my source work, with little explanation. Perhaps if you say exactly what your problem is, we can correct your misunderstanding, as nothing in my paragraph is the slightest bit controversial, and it is all sourced with book and page to highly respected authorities on Nietzsche, Biology, and Darwin (Dennett, Kaufmann, Richardson). You clearly lack anything resembling an understanding of this issue, so that simple facts seem dubious to you. If only you would put in the slightest bit of effort, you would see that my paragraph is accurate and simply paraphrasing issues on which all of my sources are in agreement. Frankly, I believe it's clear that your understanding of these topics is too low for you to be of any use in this matter. You could however correct this flaw if you would read my source work. CABlankenship (talk) 17:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Let's examine our conflict. Your argument seems to be that any overview of Nietzsche's writings on biology, Darwin, or women belong in the "influence and reception" section. You have yet to offer anything resembling a coherent argument for this view. You have wholesale rejected my notion of creating a category for Nietzsche's vast writings on other subjects, and you seem to want them to have no place on the front page at all. Again, coherent argument for this stance have not been offered. Nor has anything resembling a coherent argument for removing my additions been offered, only badly misinformed assertions that betray your failure to understand Nietzsche and his writings on this issue, and your lack of good faith or willingness to check my sources, or improve this misunderstanding. CABlankenship (talk) 18:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Your ad hominem attacks don't bother me Mr. Blankenship but do offer a lively example of the kind of tendentious editor traits I alluded to above. Our problem is not with your sources but with your lack of providing a balanced view per: WP:NPOV. Your research method appears to consist of searching out negative critiques and aggregating them together, not granting what's due to the opposing side. I am not going to engage in long extensive debates with you over these things because, since I suspect you are a troll, that would be exactly what you want me to do—of little value either to me or the others here. You really need to recuse yourself but, because I think that unlikely, I have asked others to give us their feedback. Meanwhile, you may flame away. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

We've dealt with this sort of thing before: ignore and revert. Nietzsche's more controversial claims were dealt with adequately before CABlankenship began his edits. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 18:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

You've still yet to provide any precise examples at all of why my article is imbalanced, and you still refuse to read my sources. You are simply making assertions without backing them up with anything coherent. I have simply listed facts that are agreed upon in all of my sources, and it is acknowledged that Nietzsche was correct on several "subtle and astute" truths of evolution. My sources all agree with each other on the non-controversial facts that are present in my article. I am also accused of polemics, which is odd, as the definition for polemics is: a polemic text on a topic is often written specifically to dispute or refute a position or theory that is widely viewed to be beyond reproach If anything, it is you who are engaging in polemics, as I am simply stating widely accepted and non-controversial facts, as sourced by a wide range of mutually agreeing refs.CABlankenship (talk) 19:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the sections in question as unbalanced. I am asking for support to avoid the 3RR rule. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

You have yet to provide a single source, citation, or reason for why my citations are not balanced. You insist that the section is not fair, but refuse to explain why. How am I to proceed against such a thing? Am I merely left to ponder what your objections might mean? CABlankenship (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

This shameful defensive posturing bears all the marks of cultism. In this discussion we are seeing an almost religious imperviousness to rational argumentation. It is all too easy to brand as "trolls" those with contrary viewpoints. Serious scholarship -- something we should be striving toward here on Wikipedia -- is on a different level entirely.

CABlankenship's citations appear to me rock solid -- and all his claims are firmly tied to these citations. There is no scholarly reason to disregard his contributions. Quite the opposite, for the onus is clearly on Blankenship's opponents to explain why his citations are inaccurate. abrhm17 (talk) 20:47, 31 December 2008 (GMT)

I have to agreed on CABlanenship as a problem. Just the fact that he openly, and quite proudly actually, relies on Russell when writing an article on Nietzsche is highly suspect. Brushing aside the work of Tille in favor of Russell, on Nietzsche? There is a pretty clear axe grinding case here I'd say. CABlankenship's positions have been dealt with quite well, and it's somewhat ridiculous that he's making accusations of cultism while relying on an openly hostile source. Rutgers, Prince and NYU all leave out any work of Russell, along with other biased philosophers, in regards to Nietzsche. Check with Bruce Willshire at Rutgers, or Howard McGary at Rutgers. Try Elizabeth Harman at Princeton. Elizabeh Harman, a woman, who receieved her PhD from MIT disagrees with CABlankenship's claims on Nietzsche's thoughts and women and the importance of his writing on women. I mean damn, here email her yourself eharman@princeton.edu. Want more sources that disprove CABlankenship's positions? Try John Richardson at NYU. Look at his paper Nietzsche's Freedoms. What John Richardson of NYU is wrong about Nietzsche and CABlankenship is right?

This is somewhat silly when this person is claiming the top minds in the field are incorrect and he's correct. Wikipedia needs to just stop allowing CABlankenship grind his axe here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HAL0002000 (talk • contribs) 11:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Extended sourcing on Nietzsche, Darwin, and evolution for benefit of editors

It's clear that some people refuse to actually read my sources, and instead insist that my contributions are wrong or biased. Thus far, no reasons for rejection have been given for my impeccable sources, which include the prestigious philosopher and scientist Daniel Dennett, Nietzsche expert Walter Kaufmann, and the philosopher Richardson, who has specialized in Nietzsche research. Here are some sample citations to clear up my article, which are detailed by book and page already in my refs:

In The Gay Science (99), Nietzsche explicitly names Lamarck to defend him against Schopenhauer, while in a later note (xvi, 9) He describes Hegel and Lamarck as having a truer doctrine of evolution than Darwin's. Against Darwin he urged the Lamarckian doctrine of the heredity of acquired characteristics--the very doctrine the Nazi's never tired of branding as a Bolschevistic lie, because, as they frankly admitted, it would invalidate their entire racism. -- 'Walter Kaufmann, Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, p.293'

'Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18 : Tellingly, he seems not to have required of himself a direct aquaintance with Darwin's own writings before addressing his attacks...Also, tellingly, even Spencer he has only in translation...So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...Often, Nietzsche's 'corrections' bring him to points Darwin already holds...Other of Nietzsche's criticisms and amendments are wrong not only about Darwin, but about the facts, as we know them; on these points Darwin has been confirmed, and Nietzsche's doubts carry no weight: (1) he argues, against the efficacy of selection [which is] answered by Mendelian inheritance. (2) He carries much further a Lamarckism that Darwin also accepts, but uses much less...[Nietzsche is lead to] stress the inheritability of aquired traits. Nietzche tends to blur or ignore the difference between genetic and cultural inherigance. This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology.

-Note, Richardson is perhaps the most sympathetic of the authorities when speaking on Nietzsche and Darwin, and makes a strained attempt to argue that if Nietzsche were aware of his misunderstandings of Darwin, he might not have been as opposed to the theory. However, this is a personal opinion of Richardson, and is (as he admits) difficult to resolve with the fact that Nietzsche objected to Darwin on several critical points (such as common descent) where there was no such misunderstanding. Richardson merely speculates that Nietzsche might have changed his mind if he hadn't had such a mistaken view of Darwin and evolution. Richardson also correctly points out that on several issues where Nietzsche thought he disagreed with Darwin, they were actually in full agreement. Indeed, on several of these issues, Nietzsche goes further than Darwin. These views are represented in my paragraph.

As I noted in chapter 7, Nietzsche probably never read Darwin...Nietzsche's references to Darwin...reveal that his acquaintance with Darwin's ideas was beset with common misrepresentations and misunderstandings...On the few points of specific criticism he ventures, he gets Darwin utterly wrong, complaining, for instance, that Darwin has ignored the possibility of "unconscious selection," when that was one of Darwin's most important bridging ideas in Origin. -- 'Dennett (1995), Darwin's Dangerous Idea'

But a small sample of my mutually agreeing sources on these subjects. You are wrong to simply delete this improvement and information, when you don't know what you're talking about. CABlankenship (talk) 17:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

You still do not 'get it'. The point is not only that you must be writing about something notable that is not your own original research, and presented with verifiable citations; you must also present it in a neutral fashion showing all the notable and verifiable points of view, with attention to balance, and weight.

Here is one example of your sloppy editorial work, also showing your tendency to go far further than sources allow, hence calling your neutrality and good faith into question:

Statement: "Nietzsche was a harsh critic of Darwin, evolution, natural selection, and biology."

Your 'citation' in 'support' of this sweeping statement (a statement that is preposterous, taken as a whole): "Nietzsche: Critical Assessments", 'Nietzsche Contra Darwin', K.A. Pearson, Daniel W. Conway, Peter S. Groff, p.7-28: "Nietzsche's writings, both published and unpublished, are riddled with critical reflections on Darwin and Natural Selection"

Regarding the Statement: You cite Conway, et alia in support of the statement that Nietzsche was a harsh critic of Darwin, evolution, natural selection and biology. However while the Pearson study opens with the quote you provided, it goes on to mention "Nietzsche's 'philosophical biology'" and to say that "there is an essential 'evolutionary' basis to Nietzsche's most radical philosophizing" (both p7). Further along (p14) Pearson mentions that Nietzsche attacks "biologists for importing into the logic of life moral evaluations" - not that he attacks (or harshly criticizes) biology.

Regarding the Citation: Why do we have not date of publication for the citation? I can understand leaving out the place of publication. However, the date of publication is a necessary part of the citation. What about the publisher of the volume? What do the double and then single quotes mean? Which of these is the title of the book? And don't tell me I should search for all of it to see for myself. If I can't tell what the title of a book is from the citation, there's a problem. Further, you are not citing the location of the quote, rather the whole article, so why are you cutting out two pages of it with your page numbering? Do the references and bibliography not count? What about the fact that there are other volumes? Is there no need to indicate that this is volume IV of a series? If you really are a biologist one would assume you have training in academic writing. If so, please bring it to bear.

Consider using: K.A. Pearson, "Nietzsche Contra Darwin", in Daniel W. Conway (Ed.), Nietzsche: Critical Assessments (Volume IV, Between The Last Man and The Overman, The Question of Nietzsche's Politics), Routledge, 1998, p7

It's this kind of free hand with your sources and this sort of hazy, ill-defined thinking that makes your contributions sub-optimal. This is reflected in your belief that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin even if he has not read him. In fact he cannot. He can only misunderstand Darwin's ideas as reported by others. This is far more than a matter of semantics. It is representative of the murky tendencies to half-articulation and distortion you favor in your edits. You write as though the view we have of biology today was available to Nietzsche in the 1870s and 1880s, else how would it be possible for his understanding to be 'distorted'? A distortion is an inaccurate reflection or reproduction of something that does or did exist. Can a man's thinking 'distort' a thing that does not yet exist? To say Nietzsche's understanding of (what amounts to our modern ideas of) biology was 'distorted' by Larmarckism is to suggest that a clear picture of what we know today was present to him, which he then 'distorted'. That's like saying Copernicus's understanding of astronomy was distorted because he posited circular orbits, while today we know that Kepler's later idea of elliptical orbits was 'true'. The standard against which you so smugly measure Nietzsche's thought did not even begin to come to light until after the end of his functional career. As you yourself note: "Like every pre-mendelian thinker, he was unaware of the proper unit and means of heredity. The error of assuming Lamarckian inheritance was common until the 20th century." How could he be distorting a picture that had not emerged during his functional life? It's this kind of editorial hatchet-job that irritates me and leads me to mention, again, your retrospective value judgments. I also find myself amused to no end that you wave the Richardson citation in my face as indicative of your scholarship when I'm the one who pointed you to it in the first place. At that time you argued Richardson "speaks with no authority on the subject of biology. This is an obscure source which seems unnecessary". You then go on to claim I don't read my sources when I had never claimed to have read in toto the works from which they were drawn. As I mentioned at at the time I was in the process of compiling a list of citations. These were intended to show you just how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Let's ask ourselves whether the following indicates a constructive attitude for an editor intending to work on the Nietzsche article, and expected to maintain NPOV:

"As a biologist, I could have made Nietzsche look far more silly on the matter of natural selection had I wished to do so. I decided to confine the section to Dennett's particular criticisms, as they come from a fellow philosopher. In reality, Nietzsche's profound misunderstanding of evolution is very near laughable, and very relevant to his work."

And how about this chestnut, which suggests we should view Nietzsche as a dangerous 'gateway drug':

"I'm quite "determined", as you say, to see these facts mentioned. I've seen far too many otherwise well-meaning students of philosophy fail to get a full picture of Nietzsche, while following him down a path that was then difficult for them to reverse."

Rather than get further bogged down in this melodramatic twaddle (what horrors must wait for them at the end of that path!), I recommend the following:

1. Other editors will edit the existing Nietzsche/Darwin entry for balance and neutrality, reducing it to a properly cited summary paragraph. It will remain as a section of its own for the time being.

2. CABlankenship will start a new sub-page discussing (not here on the main page - a new page) The Role of Biology In Nietzsche's Thought (or some title of similar scope). This will include the Darwin issue as one section so as not to contextualize the whole discussion of Nietzsche and biology based on Darwin comparisons, itself a heavily biased approach, and unsupportable given the fact that Darwin himself has been criticized as 'wrong' in a number of respects. This will eliminate arguments about placement here on the main page at one stroke. It will also keep the main page from constantly being covered in tags and partisan edits.

3. When CABlankenship and/or others have finished basic article creation, the other editors (including myself) interested in this aspect of Nietzsche's thought can take a look and edit, whine, declaim, argue (or have a good cathartic weeping session) as necessary on the appropriate page.

4. When this new article has reached a point of relative stability we will be in the informed position necessary to write a properly neutral, balanced and weighted summary paragraph to replace the temporary one we'll shortly be placing here. We can then link from the summary paragraph to the full article. Once this is out of the way we can then move on to the other CABlankenship issues like whether or not the article should have new sections added; whether or not any reasonable person should despise Nietzsche without need for reflection because we just know he said mean and hurtful things about women and no further 'proof' is necessary; whether his works really do contain "vile discussions"; whether they are "endlessly bigoted"; whether Nietzsche was a "pitiful figure" or "a monster in many respects"; whether Wikipedia editors working on the Nietzsche article are better characterized as "admirers" or "followers" of the "barbaric" "throwback" and "schoolboy" amusement, etc. etc. ad nauseum

I urge those who are interested one way or another to indicate their vote on this group of suggestions. Then we can move on to where this typewriter stuff goes...

Thank you. --Picatrix (talk) 07:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I really don't see how you can legitimately call for a vote here. What you are doing is making a suggestion to CABlankenship which might have been better made on their talk page. If two editors cannot agree then they should go to mediation. --Snowded TALK 08:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

First off I would like to apologize for any remarks made above throughout all my posts that are annoying, insulting, counterproductive, etc. I retract them in the spirit of constructive collaboration. I direct this primarily at CABlankenship.

As for Snowded: I apologize if I have inconvenienced you, but a number of editors have indicated differing opinions as regards how this content should be handled. This suggests to me that this is a situation in which a vote by other editors could be useful. If there is some policy or guideline regarding calling for votes, of which I am unaware, and regarding which my request constitutes a violation of some kind, please let me know and I will attempt to correct things as best I am able. However, by your logic, your just-posted admonition would be most appropriate on my talk page, instead of being posted here. For my part, I can't see why I shouldn't legitimately call for a vote. Zazaban wants Darwin in the philosophy section, CABlankenship wants to create new sections or wants Darwin in the philsophy section and wants (or at least wanted) to add content that some editors take exception to. RJC suggests a policy of delete and ignore. Alcmaeonid doesn't feel there's justification in placing the content on the main page at all. And all this will be settled if I post something on CABlankenship's talk page? --Picatrix (talk) 08:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

No inconvenience to me. However there does seem to be a lot of biting the newcomer going on here and a lo of what comes accross as patronising language. My suggestion was that you should seek agreement with CABlankenship via his/her talk page first. If not, given the nature of the some the exchanges I think mediation might be more appropriate than pushing through a vote. If there is then it needs to be less prescriptive that you outline above. Question 1 is should Darwin be in philosophy or in a different section Question 2 relates to content. A discussion on that would make more sense. It might lead to some additional developments. Pearson's Viroid life has proved very useful to those of us linking complex adaptive systems theory with Philosophy and its a modern application of some of Nietzsche's ideas and itself informs Darwinism. Trying to move this forward through discussion is better than votes lists which allow for few shades of grey. --Snowded TALK 08:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Picatrix has a valid point on the question of the word biology in the opening section. Nietzsche was actually quite interested in biology, and even though he was certainly clearly very 'critical' of the subject, this might give a false view of the picture. Nietzsche retained a life-long passion for biology. Also, your point about providing dates for all of the sources are also valid, and I will correct this tomorrow. Other than that Pica, I don't really think you had much of an argument that I could tell. Can you explain your problems with the rest of the paragraph and sources? You only mentioned that one (valid) complaint. I should answer the rest of your various points, though.

You write as though the view we have of biology today was available to Nietzsche in the 1870s and 1880s, else how would it be possible for his understanding to be 'distorted'?

I said that "Nietzsche's view was distorted by his lamarckism". This is surely true, and comes in direct wording from my sources. Richardson: "This distorts his theory in some predictable ways...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology." So while you have an interesting theory, it does nothing to refute my source.

This is reflected in your belief that Nietzsche could misunderstand Darwin even if he has not read him. In fact he cannot. He can only misunderstand Darwin's ideas as reported by others. This is far more than a matter of semantics.

Again, this is an interesting theory, but unfortunately my sources don't agree with you. I think we would be wise to side in favor of experts like Dennett, instead of going with the opinions of any one of us. I have cited two sources in agreement on this point. Whether or not you are correct that Dennett and Richardson are "representative of the murky tendencies to half-articulation and distortion", your opinion on this matter does not override my respected sources.

I have now exhausted your substantial points of contention. The rest is mostly appeals to emotion and insults that I had hoped we could move beyond. I posted a message on your talk page specifically apologizing for losing my temper before, albeit after provocation. My offer stands. We can raise the civility of this and work together on this article in a reasonable manner. I apologize again for my uncivil behavior in previous posts. But that has nothing to do with my article now. I think everyone has a bias, surely, and I have simply admitted my points of disagreement with Nietzsche. I also have many agreements with Nietzsche, which I will be getting to soon in this work. I am trying to do balanced work. You were right to criticize my earlier efforts, but I believe that (other than your point about the word 'biology') you have failed to mount a substantive case against the veracity of my section. CABlankenship (talk) 09:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

CABlankenship: In keeping with our mutual resolve to be constructive I will now dispense with comments here unless absolutely necessary. I hope since your last post you have realized that I made my longer post before having received your apology on my own talk page. As soon as I have time I will begin to edit your initial passage based on how I feel it can be improved. In fact, I'm having difficulty keeping up with all the new subject headings that are appearing here in the talk page. My own feeling is that if nothing else we should try to do one thing at a time. Of course, this is just my opinion. I'll be dealing with the Darwin/Biology material first.

Snowded: I'll grant an atmosphere of biting the newcomer, and I'm happy to try to bring it to an end. I will add, however, that it is necessary for the newcomer to stop biting too. As this seems, happily, to have occurred we can very likely move on. I will say that I happen to feel that what you characterize as prescriptive I see as concrete. Your vote, for example, was to propose something less prescriptive; thank you for it. For my part I feel that the best way to include the content that CABlankenship wants to see here is to put together a better and more complete article covering all the points, thereby enabling us to mount an attempt for a summary paragraph based on all interested editors being able to refer to a comprehensive discussion of all the points, which this subject certainly deserves, in my opinion. --Picatrix (talk) 10:42, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Various Writings

With a man like Nietzsche, it's very easy to come away with a bias one way or the other when reading him. Many are so dazzled by his art and prose that they cannot accept anything less than an erroneous and idealized portrait of the man, while others -- disgusted by his more crude and insulting passages -- hold him in contempt. There are few people who are generally neutral on Nietzsche. For this reason, I will stick to neutral sources of scholarship, including the almost always sober Kaufmann, and the relentlessly accurate Dennett. My own views, opinions, and work will not come into play, as this would be a violation of the 'Original Research' rules. I intend on providing balanced and informative summaries on Nietzsche, intended for the lay reader, with frank citations and sources for his triumphs, errors, and controversial writings.

I am collecting quotes from Nietzsche authors on the other subjects in the 'Various Writings' header, and would appreciate any suggestions for books on Nietzsche on these subjects. If someone else wishes to expand these sections, that would be great. Thanks, CABlankenship (talk) 08:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Picatrix, would you mind leaving that various writings section up for me? I plan on improving all of those sections. CABlankenship (talk) 05:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Nietzsche and Memes

I'm dubious of any meaningful connection between Nietzsche and memes. I understand that there is some vague talk of this, and I have yet to read Richardson's chapter on this subject--though I will be doing so soon. If enough credible citations can be gathered on this subject, I believe we should add a section for Nietzsche and his insights into memetics. CABlankenship (talk) 12:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Kaufmann quote

The wording is so bizarre ("their entire racism") I have trouble believing Kaufmann wrote it. Do you have the text, CABlankenship? I was rewriting the article for clarity, but if you have the text and insist on the wording I am okay with it as long as it is put in quote marks. Kjaer (talk) 21:38, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

This is all in my ref. Please check my citations in the future. CABlankenship (talk) 21:39, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You aren't answering my question. Can you look at the book and confirm that you have quoted Kaufmann correctly? The wording is so awkward, I doubt he would have said something like that. And if those were his actual words, they should be put in quote marks in the article. Kjaer (talk) 21:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

[I note with amusement that 24 hours after a dispute which lead to administrative intervention exactly the edit I suggested above, confirming the wording and putting it in quotes if it is correct is what has occurred. It seems the dispute was about the editor and not the article all along. I thank DH for the very helpful rewrite.]Kjaer (talk) 18:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand the problem. I have quoted him correctly in my ref. Quote marks would violate the spirit of Kaufmann's quote, and would not be consistent with my ref. This would come perilously close to POV, which we cannot tolerate. Sources should be interpreted for their intended meaning, not the meanings we want to portray. That would be 'original research'. Editors must simply capture the source, not insert their own opinions into the material. Kaufmann's exact quote is given in my ref.CABlankenship (talk) 21:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You'll also need to explain why racism needs quotation marks. How would this improve the article? CABlankenship (talk) 22:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

How much more simple can I make it? Did you just now go take the book off your shelf and confirm that the exact words "their entire racism." are the ones on the printed page? There is no question of POV here. I assume English is your native language, so I assume you can tell how strange the phrase "their entire racism." sounds. A google search for "entire racism [full stop]" returns not one single example. One would normally say their "entire racist theory" or the like. Please simply look in the book and let me know if these are his exact words. Kjaer (talk) 22:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You may check the book and page listed for yourself. I have already confirmed that this was his exact quote. How would quote marks on racism improve this article or make Kaufmann's meaning more clear? CABlankenship (talk) 22:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

My question is, did you just check the text from the source right now. It simply sounds like a possible misquote. I can verify it the next time I go to the bookstore. Until then, since you will not verify that you have just checked the text it is tagged.Kjaer (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

In all seriousness, saying that something 'sounds like a misquote' is a silly reason to make such a fuss. There is no reason for you to change my article. Check the quote for yourself if you are so sure it's inaccurate, but do not change until you do. You're being silly. CABlankenship (talk) 22:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

'Your' article? Since when was it 'your' article? Wikipedia articles don't belong to anyone, and getting possessive is probably not a good idea. Zazaban (talk) 22:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I have here the book right in front of me and I can verify that Blankenship's quotation is word-for-word faithful to Kaufmann. abrhm17 (talk) 22:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The quote, whose substance I do not dispute, has to be verified by an independent party. Show good faith. I do not want to change the article at all, just make sure the quote is accurate. The tag stays until somenoe other than Blankenship verifies that "their entire racism" is the exact quote. Do not remove the tag, Blankenship or "abrhm17" or it goes to an adimn. The fact that abrhm17 was just created, and that his talk page was Blankenships until the last edit makes me suspect sockpuppetry.Kjaer (talk) 22:46, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

This guy can't be serious. Ignoring and reverting. CABlankenship (talk) 22:48, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I highly suggest you take sockpuppetry accusations very seriously. Zazaban (talk) 22:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Why? Hey abrhm17, it appears you're my sockpuppet! congrats. Get an admin, this is hilarious. CABlankenship (talk) 22:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Zaz, this guy is just trolling me because I inserted an unfavorable Chomsky quote into his precious Ayn Rand page. CABlankenship (talk) 22:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Time to put an end to this absurdity. http://books.google.com/books?id=Rw4u68fxYQMC&pg=PA294&lpg=PA294&dq=kaufmann+nietzsche+philosopher+psychologist+lamarck&source=web&ots=ZgvVVRxS4k&sig=KFqjfH_FHAyitNiBSh8HkacNDhE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result Quote proved. Reverting. CABlankenship (talk) 22:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

looks like abrhm beat me to the punch. CABlankenship (talk) 22:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

And thus we can put the matter to rest. By the way, all a check tag means is that it should be checked, not that it's certainly wrong. And we have checked it. Zazaban (talk) 23:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, but he was being absurd anyway. He was demanding that I "get the book off the shelf" and check it again. When I told him I doubled checked, he demanded that I get the book off of the shelf yet again because it "seemed" like an inaccurate quote. He is now accusing another user of being a sockpuppet, when that person verified my quote. He's a troll. He's mad because I added a citation that casts doubt on the pure genius of his precious Rand, and now he can't get rid of it, despite his best efforts. CABlankenship (talk) 23:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Ugh, Ayn Rand. *Shudder* You're right, that is absurd. Let us return to our lives. Zazaban (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

He's STILL refusing to accept the quote. He has reverted my edits again. This guy is a laugh. He's also filed a sockpuppet charge against myself and abrhm17. CABlankenship (talk) 23:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I added your second source, hopefully putting this matter to rest. I apologize for the sockpuppet charge, that was partially my fault. Zazaban (talk) 23:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

No problem. I'm not sure we're allowed to use googlebooks as a source, though, hence why I didn't add it myself. I think that page might be protected by copyright. CABlankenship (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Copyright doesn't matter when you're sourcing, as all you're doing is linking. Zazaban (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Blankenship, could you please expalin to me how I could possibly have known that it was you who added the Kaufmann quote here? The accusation of trolling is absurd. The fact remains that no matter what our differences, there is a methodology to wikipedia and we all must follow it. I simply requested that you verify very strange wording. You refused to do so, told me to verify it myself, reverted the tag while insisting that you wouldn't bother to get the text = if you had it. All I wanted was your word that you had looked at the text - nothing more. It happens to turn out that the quote was accurate - a simple matter that could have been handled again just by your saying you had looked at the text. But instead you engaged in vandalism, multiple ereversions, and the sudden appearance of a sock puppet whose talk page happened to be your own. Expalin this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Friedrich_Nietzsche&diff=prev&oldid=261335852

It is not the quote, which I simply wanted to make sure was accurate, but your behavior here that has been the problem. Kjaer (talk) 23:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The talk page has been explained, quite well. It's also a very simple matter. CABlankenship does seem a bit defensive, but I'm under the impression he is simply unfamiliar with the guidelines of wikipedia. I remember when I was new, I broke etiquette left and right. But I learned, and I probably wouldn't have lasted long enough to do so if somebody came allow and accused me of all sorts of bad faith. Zazaban (talk) 23:59, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It was wrong of me to say "my article", and I now see the rule against "edit warring". But in all fairness, his argument was absurd and he was just trying to annoy me. His points were fantastically trivial. I put in a ton of research for that section, and had to do quite a bit of arguing to get it in, so I probably am being overly defensive. I put that entire section together, and meticulously sourced everything in it (including getting multiple authoritative sources for each point), so I don't want to see it spoiled with people adding quotation marks to 'racism' (what could that possible achieve?) and what not. I was reasonable at first, but he was being so absurd that I became upset. No excuse though, live and learn. CABlankenship (talk) 00:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Abrhm already explained the 'edit' you mention Kjaer. He didn't know about the four tilde sig, so he had been copying other peoples sigs and pasting them after his quotes, and then adding his own name over the name of the person from whose quote he had copied. He forgot to paste over one of the CAblankenship names. Your accusation of 'same talk page' was just made up out of the blue, as has been explained to you. CABlankenship (talk) 00:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

CABlankenship, your apology is not necessary. All of this would have been avoided if you would simply focus on the article. Again, you repeat that I did this to annoy you. I ask, how could I have known that it was you who added that statement "their entire racism"? How could I have known that you would be the one to respond to it? The strangeness of the quote is obvious. No one says anything in english like "it would disprove their entire racism." Maybe "it would disprove their racist theory." But even "disprove their racism" without entire is odd, because "disprove their racism" means to prove that they are not racist! You immediately started hurling accusations of POV. (What possible POV?) Make paranoid accusations that I am trolling - again, you responded to me - bring up the fact that I edit the Rand page as if it has anything to do with this. (Don't you also edit the Rand page, and doesn't that also make you a nut if it makes me one?) You post that I am a proven liar. About what? You post that I made up the same talk page matter out of the blue - but you yourself see the edit - so how is it out of the blue? And none of this had anything to do with the simple request that you look in a book and check to make sure one word is not misread. Next time simply follow procedure, and don't allow your emotions to act as evidence in your head for my supposed evil motives. After all, if it had in fact turned out that "racism" should have been "racist theory," how would this have hurt the article? How? What that I have done here has in any way hurt wikipedia? Kjaer (talk) 01:11, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't apologizing to you, actually. I find you to be a quite distasteful fellow, to be honest. I was acknowledging that I allowed your trolling to get the better of my judgment, which lead to an unfortunate scene. In fact, I remained rather polite to you until you went over-the-top with your inanity. CABlankenship (talk) 01:33, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I also notice that there is some sort of "checkuser" option for resolving your malicious and fraudulent charges against myself and abrhm17. Please contact an admin and take whatever steps necessary to remove this charge as quickly as possible. CABlankenship (talk) 01:35, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

My charges are not malicious. It was you who reverted a valid tag while outright refusing to answer a very simple and reasonable question. It was you who branded me a troll. I was not fraudulent. I did not make up anything, I did not call you a liar, I called you a possible sockpuppeteer while you made every possible accusation in the book, now including malice and fraud. Even if you are not a sockpuppeteer, which I do not know one way or the other, you committed vandalism by removing the tags. I made a simple inquiry. A 30 second post. You could simply have said you didn't have the text in front of you. You didn't even have to respond. Instead, with you hostility, your refusal to answer an honest question, your improper edits, you insults, you wasted my time and did everything possible to make me sure you are acting in bad faith. You have to show your good faith. I am sure we will have no problems going forward. Let's keep this off this talk page and stop wasting everybody's time.Kjaer (talk) 02:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I fully agree that you should stop wasting our time. Request a 'checkuser' or admin check on your baseless charge against myself and abrhm ASAP. CABlankenship (talk) 02:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

19th Century Christianity

The lead paragraph states: "and a repudiation of both Christianity (especially 19th-century) and Egalitarianism (especially in the form of Democracy and Socialism)." Yet the issue of 19th Century Christianity is not discussed further in the article. I think that you could easily say that he repudiates Christianity, and could argue that he criticized aspects of contemporary Christianity. But that would need a citation. Unless there are objections I intend to remove the refernce to 19th century as not yet supported and not relevant to the main text. Kjaer (talk) 03:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

On Politics

Here is what I have on politics for Nietzsche so far, my sources are Bertrand Russell, "A history of western philosophy", p.760-772 and Walter Kaufmann, "Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist" - various pages which I will list later. Here is my work so far:

Nietzsche admires certain qualities which he believes to be only possible for an aristocratic minority; the majority should be only means to the the creation of an elite, and should not be regarded as having any independent claim to happiness or well-being. He often refers to ordinary human beings as the "bungled and botched," and sees no objection to their suffering, but only if it is necessary for the production of a great man. This is consistent with Nietzsche's praise for Napoleon: "The Revolution made Napoleon possible: that is its justification. We ought to desire the anarchical collapse of the whole of our civilization if such a reward were to be its result." Allowing for his usual hyperbole, Nietzsche believed that "all of the higher hopes of this century" were due to Napoleon.

Nietzsche believed that it was necessary for higher men to make war upon the masses, and resist the democratic tendencies of his age: "Everything that pampers, that softens, and that brings the 'people' or 'woman' to the front, operates in favour of universal suffrage—that is to say, the domination of 'inferior' men." It is not surprising that Nietzsche condemned Socialism. Socialism to Nietzsche was essentially identical in spirit to Christianity. Nietzsche believed that any notion of equality of human beings was manifestly false as an objective point, and foolish romanticism as a political ideology. Nietzsche advocates the protection of artists, poets, and all who happen to be masters of some skill, but only if they are among the best of their order.

Nietzsche is not, however, a worshiper of the state; his views are oftentimes positively anarchist. Nietzsche was a passionate individualist: "The misfortunes of all these small folk do not together constitute a sum-total, except in the feelings of mighty men." Nietzsche is not a nationalist, and shows no admiration for Germany. Nietzsche desired an international ruling race, who are to be the lords of the earth: "a new vast aristocracy based upon the most severe self-discipline, in which the will of philosophical men of power and artist-tyrants will be stamped upon thousands of years." Nietzsche wished to see what he calls the "noble man", which is in no way a universal type, as a governing authority. This "noble man" will be capable of cruelty, and will recognize duties only to his equals. CABlankenship (talk) 05:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Needs a lot of cleaning up, I know. But that's an example of my sources so far. I will cite everything like I did in the biology section when I'm done collecting sources and deciding on content. Suggestions and citations are welcome. CABlankenship (talk) 05:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

More:

Nietzsche cannot be viewed, however, as a supporter of Capitalism. He was strongly critical of the notion of division of labor, saying: "it does not teach individual autocracy: it makes of many one machine and of every individual an instrument to an end. Its most generalized effect is to teach the utility of centralization." Nietzsche went on to say that it creates a "despairing boredom of the soul, which teaches them idleness in all its varieties." He said that wage earners under capitalism are worse off than slaves because they are at the "mercy of brute need" and of employers who exploit them. Instead, Nietzsche advocated individualist revolt against such measures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CABlankenship (talk • contribs) 05:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

What's remarkable about Nietzsche is that there is something in his work for everyone. Are you a Socialist? Nietzsche has poignant arguments against Capitalism. Are you a Capitalist? Nietzsche has cunning arguments against Socialism. Anarchist? You'll find much to agree with in Nietzsche. Fringe hold-out doubter of Darwin and evolution? Nietzsche serves up ammo. Darwinist? Nietzsche has plenty of writings that the Darwinist will love. I can't really think of any other writer in history of whom this can be said. It's probably because Nietzsche basically attacked nearly everything. Except for the French. CABlankenship (talk) 10:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

What is the deal with this reliance on Russell when it comes to Nietzsche? Not trying to be rude here, but what gives? The Cambridge dictionary uses none of his work on Nietzsche, nor does the Standord encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HAL0002000 (talk • contribs) 10:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Eugenics and euthanasia

I've tried to balance the section on evolution a little bit. It now starts with Lamarckism and ends with Nietzsche's criticism on Darwinism. BTW: Should the biology section contain a reference to Nietzsche's position on Eugenics and euthanasia? For example, Alfred Hoche and Karl Binding referred to Nietzsche in their influential paper on eugenics and euthanasia in 1922 (see Life unworthy of life). (A paper called Freigabe der Vernichtung lebensunwerten Lebens, in English: Release for Annihilation of Life Unworthy of Life), --D.H (talk) 12:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Kaufmann states quite strongly that any connection between eugenics and Nietzsche was a Nazi lie. Also, Nietzsche was quite aware of the supporters of eugenics during his own time (Spencer, Galton) and he loudly rejected and mocked them. I currently have only one source on this issue (Kaufmann), but my own reading leads me to believe this is true. It's just too simple. Nietzsche's position on what we ought to do is quite unclear, and he kept himself mostly to criticizing the work of the English biologists (all of whom he despised and insulted regularly, including Darwin, who he referred to as 'stupid'). There is another problem here, namely, what to do about the people who insist on taking Nietzsche out of context. Oftentimes, Nietzsche would lay out the argument of the case he intended to debate, and then in the next paragraph he would utterly attack that position. Darwin and many other 19th century writers would do the same thing. This leads to a lot of examples of taking Nietzsche out of context (which is exactly what the Nazis did), and something we have to watch for, especially in the postmodern work on Nietzsche, as they have admitted contempt for truth, and they have an agenda to distort Nietzsche to fit their own modern liberalism.CABlankenship (talk) 22:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I have a few minor complaints about the edits to my work on Nietzsche and Darwin. The phrase "and possibly misunderstood him on multiple key points" is not accurate. He obviously and unambiguously misunderstood him on multiple key points. My sources are not ambiguous on this score.

Richardson, Nietzsche's New Darwinism' p.16-18: "So, as we turn to his crticisms of Darwin, we find that many of these are ill informed: Nietzsche attacks him for positions Darwin doesn't hold...So we find a jumble of mistakes about Darwin and mistakes about biology."

'Dennett (1995), Darwin's Dangerous Idea': Nietzsche's references to Darwin...reveal that his acquaintance with Darwin's ideas was beset with common misrepresentations and misunderstandings...On the few points of specific criticism he ventures, he gets Darwin utterly wrong, complaining, for instance, that Darwin has ignored the possibility of "unconscious selection," when that was one of Darwin's most important bridging ideas in Origin.

There is no need for the word 'possible' there. It's uncontroversial and heavily supported that he misunderstood Darwin on several points. However, I will remove the word key as that wording is not present in my sources, even though I believe it captures the spirit. Notice that I didn't use the stronger wording from Dennett: utterly wrong. CABlankenship (talk) 23:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

You are too much relying on Kaufmann (like most Americans....). For example, another well known philosopher (at least in Germany), Rüdiger Safranski, tells us that there is (in some way) a connection between Nietzsche's philosophy and the Nazi-Philosophy of Alfred Baeumler and (in a very crude form) the eugenics programs of Hoche/Binding. BTW: Not only the Nazis understood Nietzsche as a Socialdarwinist. For example, see the preface of the first Nietzsche-translation by Alexander Tille in this book (1899). They are based on Nietzsche's comments like his "Morality for physicians" (Twilight of the idols) "The sick man is a parasite of society. In a certain state it is indecent to live longer. To go on vegetating in cowardly dependence on physicians and machinations, after the meaning of life, the right to life, has been lost, that ought to prompt a profound contempt in society. The physicians, in turn, would have to be the mediators of this contempt--not prescriptions, but every day a new dose of nausea with their patients. To create a new responsibility, that of the physician, for all cases in which the highest interest of life, of ascending life, demands the most inconsiderate pushing down and aside of degenerating life--for example, for the right of procreation, for the right to be born, for the right to live." --D.H (talk) 11:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware of that quote. I actually used it in an earlier version of this section which was rejected. But this is a complex point which is misleading. Nietzsche didn't mean this from an evolutionary point of view, but simply a social point of view. Nietzsche was skeptical of natural selection, thus he doubted that issues like health were attributable to natural selection. It's impossible to consider him a supporter of Eugenics without distortion and taking him out of context in dishonest ways. While you are right that some people misinterpreted him as a social Darwinist, Nietzsche himself scoffed at the notion and utterly rejected it. So the accusations of some other author speculating about Nietzsche and his views should not take precedence over what he himself said in writing. That some of his views can be applied to a modern understanding of the term "social Darwinism" seems to me wholly uninteresting and is better dealt with in sections that do not relate to biology, and have more relevance in a section on politics. CABlankenship (talk) 12:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Nietzsche's Politics

Moving past biology (hopefully — even though the section is way too sympathetic to Nietzsche in my opinion), maybe we can move on to his politics. While this is going to be a matter that requires significant debate, I think this time it can be fun. Obviously, pointing out Nietzsche was wrong about a lot of his biology (gasp) was bound to be challenged, but I think we can move past matters that are so clearly a slight to his omnipotence (does this make him less of an Übermensch?), and so maybe we can have an entertaining and witty debate without losing our tempers. I promise to do this.

I have listed my source on Nietzsche's politics, and it is Bertrand Russell. The piece on Capitalism is postmodernist distortion , but I would allow it to stand unless someone has a more credible source on how we should view Nietzsche on capitalism. The whole of the other paragraphs capture the spirit of what I would write on him now, and I believe that Russell cannot be contested as a source unless one is willing to argue that he is either wrong or a liar. In either event, considerable evidence will have to be produced for this, in my opinion. Sources will have to be found of enough credibility that they prove my authoritative source is either wrong or a liar.

With that in mind, how could anyone defend Nietzsche's politics? I'm eager to hear someone try. While it's clear that Nietzsche was a controversialist who simply liked stirring the pot, surely we admit that his writing on this subject (while amusing and entertaining) is nothing anyone can take seriously. Russell, a man known for his sobriety, deals with no-one in History of Western Philosophy as harshly as Nietzsche. He clearly despises the man. So from that, we must conclude that Russell took Nietzsche at face value. But how else are we to take him? I'm eager to hear what others have to offer. Was Nietzsche just joking? Is it all some complex metaphorical point that escapes the reading of lesser people like Russell? Perhaps I should study a postmodern Nietzschean Defense of Democracy, which tells us of the "Hermeneutical Complications" of interpreting Nietzsche's work on politics, where the author bitterly concedes that Nietzsche "assailed notions of equality, rationality, emancipation, and human rights", and worse still "Nietzsche proposed a politics of power and domination, an aristocratic cultural order meant to generate and support higher types of creative individuals and to counter the leveling tendencies of democratic sentiments", which becomes a "problem" for the "postmodern student" of Nietzsche: most of them strongly support democracy and the very values that Nietzsche so despised. But the author has the answer. A swirl of bewildering ideas struck him and: "converged in a clash that gave me pause: The Greek experience of democracy as an open contest of speeches, Plato's repudiation of democracy, Nietzsche's critique of Plato, Nietzsche's affirmation of contention, and Nietzsche's repudiation of democracy", "Something is wrong here," the author concludes. This is typical of the scholarship in the postmodern takes on Nietzsche's politics that I have read so far. I am open to any other examples that show me that my source is wrong in some way. Otherwise, I think we should begin to open up the section on Nietzsche's politics. Does anyone else have any good sources? CABlankenship (talk) 06:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

N's thoughts about democracy are worth pondering. This is especially true when we consider that majority rule merely means rule by those who are the most fertile. Popularity contests that are won by those who have the winningest smile also give one pause to reflect on the virtues of democracy. N shows us that democracy is by no means to be assumed as being the best form of government.Lestrade (talk) 17:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Rubbish. 'Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.' CABlankenship (talk) 01:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Try a republic.Lestrade (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Libertarian hogwash — a republic is a form of democracy. CABlankenship (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It might be very instructive to distinguish the important difference between democracy and republic. N, who felt himself to be mentally superior, preferred a kind of aristocracy, as did Plato. World War I effectively destroyed aristocracy.Lestrade (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

There is no consensus on this score. Jefferson, for instance, used the terms democracy and republic interchangeably. Others, like Madison, differentiated between a pure democracy and a constitutional republic, which simply contains democratic forms. Plato's Republic was very similar to communism, but not very democratic. As Jefferson said, these terms are vague and mean different things to many different people. You happen to favor using these terms within a libertarian framework. Reminds me of Ron Paul supporters. CABlankenship (talk) 15:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I have no illusions about my power to penetrate your wall of preconceptions. Knowing that it is futile, I will stubbornly mention that I am in no way a Libertarian and have absolutely no appreciation for the politics of Ron Paul. It is my belief that N's writings on politics have great value in that they may make us more reflective about democracy, instead of merely assuming that democracy is the best form of government, given the realities of human nature. Plato called his book Republic and claimed that philosophers would make the best rulers, given the realities of human nature. He must have known the difference between a republic and a democracy, so they are not vague, ambiguous concepts and should not be confused with each other. Humanity will see if N's railings against democracy have any justification when, in a century or so, the majority of citizens becomes very different from what it was a few years ago. Considering demographics and birthrates, the difference between a representative republic and a majority democracy may become very evident. The Wikipedia article would serve a very useful purpose if it clearly and distinctly presented N's thoughts so that readers could understand them and decide on their own what kind of government is most desirable under contemporary conditions. The best way to understand N's standpoint is to clear our cluttered minds of our own prejudices and to try to reflect what N is teaching, as a mirror reflects a scene. This, of course, is nearly impossible, but is a sine qua non.Lestrade (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Nietzsche's 'Writing Ball'!

I have to say that I'm sorry that I failed until now to notice a fantastic contribution. The section on Nietzsche's writing ball is excellent! One almost wishes it were a complete fabrication. Without disrespect I can say it's one of the funniest things I've ever read. I also like the voice. Simply reading the section about his writing ball makes the rest of the article unnecessary! I've never in my life come across a better 'summary' memory image for Nietzsche's life and work. And oh, what we can all learn from a restoration of Nietzsche's 'damaged' writing ball! And the mechanic who made it worse! This little section is great. Congratulations! --Picatrix (talk) 14:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a great addition. The poem is a fine ending to the article, also. I added an English translation.CABlankenship (talk) 16:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It would probably be good to remove the shameless promo plug "You can now read about..." and replace it with a citation. Maybe clean up the English a bit too? It might also be a candidate for reduction to summary paragraph and a page of its own in English... what do others think? --Picatrix (talk) 09:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm done researching Nietzsche, moving on. Good luck with the article. The philosophy of Nietzsche page is a disaster, in my opinion. Like this gem: "Deleuze, arguably the foremost of Nietzsche's interpreters, used the much-maligned 'will to power' thesis in tandem with Marxian notions of commodity surplus and Freudian ideas of desire to articulate concepts such the rhizome and other 'outsides' to state power as traditionally conceived." There is so much pomo nonsense that can reasonably be cited on Nietzsche that I doubt this page could ever offer a sober portrait of him. Shame, but maybe he deserved it. CABlankenship (talk) 17:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I've done some poking around online and I found references indicating that the typewriter was a gift to Nietzsche from his sister, and that it was delivered to him in Genoa by Rée. Perhaps these are older conclusions that have since been corrected? Can anyone clarify? --Picatrix (talk) 12:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

• I think we should look at either moving this section to the Hansen Writing-Ball article, giving the topic its own article, or simply deleting it. I've hesitated to suggest this because I do like it. (It really is quite interesting.) However, there are so many topics that must be covered in the main Nietzsche article that it is already long. The section on the writing ball is interesting but it is trivia: it adds nothing essential to our understanding of Nietzsche and his philosophy. If it is moved, it will also need to be rewritten and recited as it plagiarizes one of the websites it links to. (Granted there is some paraphrasing, but there are entire clauses that are the same.) What do others think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fixer1234 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I love it, but you're right. My enthusiasm has waned. However, can someone think of a minimally intrusive way of keeping some tiny mention of it somewhere in the main article, just so that it doesn't disappear altogether into another article where folks reading about Nietzsche are not likely to find it? I knew nothing about the device and Nietzsche's use of it until I saw it here. Maybe we could add a half-sentence mention of it placed with discussion of Nietzsche's struggles with his health and eyesight, where it would provide context? While the complete section is trivial, the fact around which it is based has some claim to inclusion. It makes Nietzsche's struggle with illness and his drive to keep on writing in the face of approaching blindness more concrete as an example. --Picatrix (talk) 13:48, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Can someone please add a good audio pronunciation or an english phonetic pronunciation? I would really appreciate it. M00npirate (talk) 17:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Popular culture

Hi. I think that should exist a section about references of Nietzsche´s in popular culture, as exists for other biographies here in English Wikipedia. There are many things about him in movies or television series that can serve to article. Movies like When Nietzsche Wept (based in a best-seller), that are important for people interessed on other form to know Nietzsche´s work out of thw words. There are other film, Saint Ralph, wich explores Nietzsche´s themes such as Übermensch and God is Dead very well. I wrote this section because this edition was reverted, so I think it is better told you these things before create more confusion. Sorry my really bad English. -- Fernando S. Aldado (talk) 21:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, now I remember a Brazilian film that portraits Nietzsche. -- Fernando S. Aldado (talk) 21:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

You need something for more substantial than that and I suggest you don't amend the article until you have agreement to something here. --Snowded (talk) 07:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• I don´t know what you want. The use of images and movies are a medium for people to know more about something. People read this article on Nietzsche and may want to know something about in the form of film, or simply to establish better see it portrayed. And that is why a section like this is important. I agree that at present it is not so substantial, but is leaving it there that other people can contribute to the growth of it. I think thats how Wikipedia works. I like to more wikipedians comment about this. -- Fernando S. Aldado (talk) 17:50, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

My own opinion is that references to Neitzsche in 'popular culture' are not appropriate in the Nietzsche article. They seem to be little more than trivial page-clutter and do nothing to advance knowledge of the article's subject. I am strongly against the inclusion of such a section. --Picatrix (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Generally, speaking I agree with Picatrix. "Popular culture" sections usually add very little to Wikipedia articles. If you want to include a section on Nietzsche "in popular culture", you'll need to cite third party sources that films or TV shows you reference are (1) notable in and of themselves and (2)that they contribute in someway to our understanding of Nietzsche. Wikipedia requires that we have reliable sources, avoid original research, and establish notability. So if you can find--for instance--an article or book in which a Nietzsche scholar compares popular depictions of Nietzsche's biography and his philosophy with current academic work no Nietzsche, I would support a very brief discussion of the topic. (An extended discussion would need to have it's own article.)Fixer1234 (talk) 07:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Second paragraph in intro

The second paragraph in the intro seems to sort of hang there and doesn't really add to the preceding paragraph. Nor does it stand in a meaningful way on its own. As a biographical snippet its content seems highly arbitrary. I suggest we expand it slightly or (perhaps more wisely) remove it from the opening and incorporate the biographical information (if/as necessary) into the bio below, which of course immediately follows. Thoughts? --Picatrix (talk) 12:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

A question for Wikipedia

If Wikipedia is logical, it would censor all anti-democratic ideologists, esp. one embedded in the literate public mind, like Nietzsche. Democracy is the essence of freedom, and the implicit basis of wikipedia. Nietzsche's worldview would never allow democratic, communitarian/social experiments like Wikipedia to exist, so what's with the moral outrage about twisting his words for the sake of democracy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.148.192 (talk) 13:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Read WIkipedia policy and you will find that such censorship is not permitted. Please stop reverting material. I have placed a warning on your page, if you revert again on either of the two articles you will be reported for vandalism. --Snowded (talk) 20:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Removal of section on Darwin, evolution

I remember, not too long ago, seeing a section in this article concerning Nietzsche's views on Darwin/evolution. Now the section appears to be missing. What reason, if any, was there for removing it? We're discussing the very topic in my philosophy class right now and so I think it is/was rather useful information. However, I do not want to reinsert the section if there was a decided-upon reason to remove it. -albrozdude (talk) 05:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

My sources on that section were Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Walter Kaufmann Nietzsche, Philosopher, Psychologist, Antichrist, and Richardson Nietzsche's New Darwinism. Most of Nietzsche's remarks regarding evolution and Darwin come in The Will to Power, and precise sections can be found using the index. CABlankenship (talk) 15:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if our friend on his crusade for democracy has anything to do with this... Zazaban (talk) 19:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

No, I remember this being something else. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 20:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

CABlankenship removed the section. --Picatrix (talk) 12:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Spherical Typewriter

While interesting, the space devoted to the typewriter in the article seems wholly out of proportion to its relative importance to the subject. It should be reduced or made its own article or made into an article on the device itself with some touching on Nietzsche.Ekwos (talk) 01:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

As the subject has been discussed above, and there seems to be some weight behind the idea of removing the 'writing ball' section, I have added a 'ligature' sentence in the "Independent Philosopher" section. Depending upon what other editors think is most prudent we can incorporate the 'writing ball' content as a footnote for that sentence, or (if others feel it might be warranted) create a separate page, and link to it from this passage. Alternatively, we could add a section on Nietzsche's writing ball to the Hansen Writing Ball article and link to it from the sentence (depending on how the contributing editors there feel). I'll wait to hear what sort of suggestions are offered before moving ahead. --Picatrix (talk) 17:28, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Putting it in the article on the writing ball seems the best course of action: Nietzsche's use of a typewriter is a bit too narrow a subject for its own article. RJC ^Talk_Contribs 17:23, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I second RJC's suggestion. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 17:37, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I've moved the content as per your suggestions. It is now resident on the Hansen Writing Ball page, though we'll have to see how the editors there feel about this. I've added a second sentence to make linking to that content possible. I'm not particularly impressed with my phrasing, and any help in trimming it so that there is less of a disjunction in the article flow there would be appreciated. I suppose we could remove the mention of it from the main article entirely, but it seems to be interesting content. --Picatrix (talk) 19:58, 18 May 2009 (UTC)