Talk:Expulsion of Cham Albanians

Hello Everyone. There is a discrepancy in the article. It says A MAJORITY of cham Albanians collaborated with the Axis forces and on the other hand it says that 2000 chams were found guilty of collaborating kut of either 14, 20, 25 or even 35 000 chams. Since when is 2000 2/3 of any of these numbers?? This is a clear troll and i am removing the part majority IMMEDIATELY, as it contradicts the rest of the text and i cannot find the word majority in any of the sources(let alone you cite greek sources on the matter, which is a clear troll as well, but since they are technically okay, I am not making an issue out of it) However the word majority , should and it is going to be removed as of now for the valid reasons stated above! Cheers, Gjergj Zogaj — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.136.77 (talk) 10:21, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Including Nazi collaborators in the 'victims' number

The community provided 2 to 3 thousand armed units that actively participated in armed operations and war crimes against civilians and condemned by the Nuremberg and other post WWII trials. As such including the full number of the community to the 'victims' is POV. Objections?Alexikoua (talk) 22:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Where is this indicated in Mojzes's figure of 2877? If this is not mentioned in Mojzes, his figure should stay reinstated. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, why were rape victims and deportees removed from the infobox? Just because some of the community collaborated doesn't justify full exclusion from the infobox. Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:45, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox provides general information about (cited) figures. The details about how this event is described is located in prose. There were rapes but there was also massive escape by Nazi transport. Also don't present again the entire community as 'victims' since its leadership was incorporated into the Wehrmacht Nazi war machine: you need serious backing to present 'war criminals' per WWII Nuremberg trial as 'victims'. Don't do it again.Alexikoua (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You still have not adequately explained why you removed certain figures, and reinstated Close (his estimate describes March to May 1945, not the entire event per his previous sentence). Just because the Cham community had Nazi collaborators doesn't mean that all of the figures include collaborators (see WP:OR and WP:POVPUSHING). Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

You still have not explained some basic and insist on POV. Insisting that the entire community (including armed pro-Nazi group) are labelled victims fall into WP:OR wp:POV and WP:POVPUSHING, per wp:BRD you need consensus first.Alexikoua (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

You're claiming the figures provided by the sources include Nazi collaborators. This is WP:OR and there's no indication in the sources that they include collaborators. Your edit also undid minor improvements to the lead. Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 21:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Do the source state that the entire community (which included also active and passive collaborators; it's leadership which was recruited by the Wehrmacht) were 'victims'? No they aren't as such that's OR & POV. By the way the infobox should change in accordance to Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950), see template about historical event, not crime or attack which was never recognized as such.Alexikoua (talk) 22:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Killing/raping civilians is a war crime, and these things are documented, so the current infobox is fine. The flight/expulsion of Germans should arguably use the same infobox as well. People who are deported in an ethnic cleansing campaign are victims, so we should keep the figures of deportees, except individual estimates where it is explicitly stated/implied that collaborators are included (otherwise it'd be WP:SYNTH to assume the other estimates include collaborators). Women who've been raped should obviously be considered as victims as well. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Can we use this figure of 18-20,000 for Chams fled/expelled? It specifically labels them as massacre survivors, therefore characterizing them as victims is WP:NPOV. [source] Yung Doohickey (talk) 00:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

One thing I do not understand here is why sourced information is being removed due to WP:OR interpretations by Alexikoua. If sources indicate that thousands of people were killed, raped, died as a result of the expulsion or evicted from their homes, then that is what the article should reflect. I’m not sure how exactly a part of the community collaborating with Axis forces justifies the rape, murder and expulsion of an entire community to the point where there would be no “victims” according to your edit summary here [1]. I am going to reinstate the sourced statistics on Cham victims. Botushali (talk) 02:01, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Have you ever read what kind of extreme and unsourced version your are adding? You even removed the addition that those 2,500 deaths are according to Albanian sources which Kretsi -the source you (mis)use intentionally as the rest of the sourced material-clearly state. I suggest you read the entire discussion and for future reference Nazi Wehmacht troops can't been considered 'victims' as you claim. Neither scholarship agrees on that. Moreover, my suggestion is to change the (stable) infobox to the one in Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) since its more neutral in its presentation (it's about a historical event and not an attack or crime).Alexikoua (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

1. The claim 1,200–2,877 Chams killed in massacres in infobox isn't supported by any source. Those death toll estimations are not exclusively as a result of massacres. This kind of childish misuse of scholarship should stop.Alexikoua (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Then we can rewrite it for more neutrality:

Total: 1,200–5,000

• 1,200–2,877 Chams killed
• up to 2,500 died from hunger and epidemics

Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The higher figure is according to Cham sources I believe. Khirurg (talk) 04:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

2. The expelled population is called displaced population in English. Using the term 'victim' is POV. I also fail to see any post-WWII court decision on that claim. That's in accordance with all post WWII civilian population movements.Alexikoua (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's POV to classify people who were expelled/forced to flee in an ethnic cleansing campaign as victims. The number of collaborators is negligible in comparison to the expelled population. Also, the current infobox type is fine because it's about ethnic cleansing and murder (crimes) against a minority group that was practically completely ejected from their native land in Greece. Yung Doohickey (talk) 23:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, suggesting that the victims were exclusively Nazi collaborators and therefore they are not victims is WP:OR and it is the same WP:POV used by the Greeks to justify their campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Equally as absurd is the suggestion that the thousands expelled from Chameria are not victims of an ethnic cleansing - they were forced to leave their homeland, not a single RS considers them to be willing participants. RS does, however, consider the event an ethnic cleansing. Botushali (talk) 00:22, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The figure: 2,500 died from hunger and epidemics is according to 'Albanian sources' and stop removing that fact. It's erroneous you use Kretsi while Kretsi is clear that this claim is not an accepted fact (and you insist on putting this on infobox). Also we should avoid propaganda terms such as labeling 'victims' while they aren't. For a neutral version you should follow that template per: Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950). Why you avoid that? Alexikoua (talk) 12:52, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Yet another OR: KEVA involvement needs citation (by RS this time).Alexikoua (talk) 19:45, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

This was not displacement, this was genocide.

Also the editors try to deny the massacres by labelling an ethnic minority as "nazis". 142.188.187.252 (talk) 22:05, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Many historians have labelled this period as genocide against the Cham Albanians, it should be labelled a genocide on Wikipedia as well. Maria1718182 (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)