Talk:Ernest Lucas Guest/GA1
Latest comment: 11 years ago by FunkyCanute in topic GA Review
GA Review edit
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Reviewer: Sitush (talk · contribs) 09:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
I'll review this one, hopefully beginning later today. - Sitush (talk) 09:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Great! I look forward to it. Many thanks, FunkyCanute (talk) 12:59, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
1st batch edit
- There are a couple of citation errors being shown when using the tool at User:Ucucha/HarvErrors and there is a disambiguation needed per Dablinks. I could fix but you'll probably prefer to do it yourself.
Done Not sure what the citation errors were, as I went through all of them manually. However, there were a couple of references that were in the bibliography that are now moved to external links and hidden: they are additional source material that is currently unused (and require a trip to the National Archives). I have unlinked Leader of the House.
- Gann and Shutt are still showing as citation errors. How about moving them to a "Further reading" section if they are of interest but unused? As for External links, there is no need to hide them if you feel they comply with WP:EL. You've got me wondering now whether there is a template for National Archives stuff, but probably there is not. - Sitush (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Done moved Gann and Shutt to External links and unhid other links. I haven't come across a template for National Archives but perhaps there ought to be one.
- OK. I've tweaked your move: FR is usually a major section and having ref=Harv causes errors if the thing is not in fact cited. If you are a regular user of Harvard-style templates then I'd recommend installing Ucucha's script because it makes maintenance much easier. - Sitush (talk) 14:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Gann and Shutt are still showing as citation errors. How about moving them to a "Further reading" section if they are of interest but unused? As for External links, there is no need to hide them if you feel they comply with WP:EL. You've got me wondering now whether there is a template for National Archives stuff, but probably there is not. - Sitush (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- The link to list of Rhodes Scholars is dead - if it cannot be found at ox.ac.uk then the Wayback Machine at archive.org may have a copy
- Done Found working link.
- Shutt appears to be behind a paywall. As a matter of style, I prefer to use {{subscription required}} in situations like this
- The Legacy section needs sourcing to something
- Done
- This image is odd. There is no source, no date and no author but it is claimed to be a public domain Boer War shot. How do we know this? Are the uniforms that much of a giveaway?
- And this image is subject to change, although I doubt it matters for the purpose of the article. (I'm not great on image-related stuff & will perhaps check with Magog the Ogre
- There are some overlinks, eg: Grahamstown, Cape Colony
- Should Government be capitalised? As in cabinet minister in Godfrey Huggins' Government? I notice at Margaret Thatcher that it seems not to be except when in a quotation. Sorry: I do realise that I may be nit-picking here given that this is a GA rather than FA nomination.
- Do we really need so much detail in the Family section? It would appear that only one of his children was notable in the Wikipedia sense of the word. I'm also unconvinced that beginning a paragraph with "Flt Lt" is helpful, especially since the rank is subsequently spelled out in full and in its chronological place. WP:HONORIFIC might have a role to play here.
- Done I have foreshortened this section, removing quite a lot of detail but keeping enough interesting material relevant to a section on Ernest Guest's family.
- Yeah, better but I am still unconvinced of the merits. This article is not about his children and while that does not mean they should be whitewashed, the degree of detail is way too much. Take a look at Margaret Thatcher, who has two notable children but no Family section and only directly related mentions throughout. Similarly, Bill Clinton, where his wife inevitably gets a lot of mentions because of the intertwining of their careers etc but, again there is no Family section for their notable daughter, Chelsea Clinton. And then there is the Paul McCartney featured article that rightly mentions his various relationships but says little about his children, even the high-profile Stella McCartney. For some daft reason, I also checked Edward Heath!). I just do not think the content is appropriate here: it causes the article to lose focus and it is undue weight.
- I've pared the section back further. Nevertheless, my sense is that Family sections are worthwhile and certainly should form part of a biography: I find some articles are weaker due to their absence. With particular regard to Ernest Guest, his children's lives and activities serve to illustrate his own life: his life is linked with military pursuits and the loss of his two sons through such pursuits is relevant, it seems to me. I considered removing the reference to Melville Guest but I think it serves to illustrate the continuation of the line.
- Yeah, better but I am still unconvinced of the merits. This article is not about his children and while that does not mean they should be whitewashed, the degree of detail is way too much. Take a look at Margaret Thatcher, who has two notable children but no Family section and only directly related mentions throughout. Similarly, Bill Clinton, where his wife inevitably gets a lot of mentions because of the intertwining of their careers etc but, again there is no Family section for their notable daughter, Chelsea Clinton. And then there is the Paul McCartney featured article that rightly mentions his various relationships but says little about his children, even the high-profile Stella McCartney. For some daft reason, I also checked Edward Heath!). I just do not think the content is appropriate here: it causes the article to lose focus and it is undue weight.
- Re: a project that went ahead with his active backing and support. in the lead. He supported it - "active backing and" seems to be redundant.
- Done Changed to "active support". Removed tautology but kept qualifier: he promoted the scheme rather than merely putting his name to it.
- The ASIN for Gale is not hitting a valid target at Amazon. Is there an ISBN?
- Done Fixed ASIN.
- Thanks. It seems unlikely the two Gale books will ever appear as a preview item on Amazon, nor are they available as preview items on GBooks. Of course, sources do not have to be online but, judging by the pagination, they appear to be small-ish corporate histories. Was Gale involved with CW&G? One of the items appears to be self-published by the firm; I've never heard of the other publisher. Do you have access to the things? I wouldn't mind seeing, say, pp. 13-18 of the 1974 work, just to get a feel for it. I thought that there might be a decent obituary in The Times but, alas, it is nothing much at all (paywall), although it does mention that he also attended South African College, Cape Town. - Sitush (talk) 13:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Gale authored a small number of books on Rhodesia (including additionally, for example, Heritage of Rhodes (1950). It seems that he acted as Director of Public Relations for Southern Rhodesia. It doesn't appear that he was directly involved in CWG, rather that the firm might have commissioned him to write it - or he took it upon himself to do so: all three partners were significant figures in the politics and evolution of Rhodesia. The 1973 work is a brief history of the nation and gives more details about Rhodesia's politics than does the 1974 work. There is an online copy of the 1973 work here: http://rhodesianheritage.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/rhodesia-years-between-1923-1973.html.
- I should have added, I have scanned pages of some of 1974, including the pages you requested, so I can share those with you.
- If you are prepared to email or otherwise provide the scans - Google Drive, Dropbox etc - then that would be great. Although it was not my primary issue with these sources, the GA criteria (and watchers!) are pretty hot when it comes to copyvio and close paraphrasing. Yes, WP:AGF is in there but if something slips through at this level and there has been no real attempt to check it out then it helps neither of us. At FA level, there are people who pretty much dedicate themselves to do spot checks of this nature, and rightly so. It is not intended to be a criticism of the contributors although, obviously, if there are serial examples of infringement then it could lead to WP:CCI etc. - Sitush (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I'm happy to share via Dropbox. Since you're mentioning copyvio, I'm going to have a check through myself first and save you the bother of pointing out any problems.
- Any progress report on this? I realise there have been some big annual events recently but I had thought it best to stall the review until potential copyvio issues were resolved.
- Just back from hols. I made some progress before Christmas with a number of copyedits. I'll complete the task in the next couple of days. I've also, hopefully, anticipated some potential comments on other parts of the article, yet to be reviewed. FunkyCanute (talk) 14:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
- Any progress report on this? I realise there have been some big annual events recently but I had thought it best to stall the review until potential copyvio issues were resolved.
- OK, I'm happy to share via Dropbox. Since you're mentioning copyvio, I'm going to have a check through myself first and save you the bother of pointing out any problems.
- If you are prepared to email or otherwise provide the scans - Google Drive, Dropbox etc - then that would be great. Although it was not my primary issue with these sources, the GA criteria (and watchers!) are pretty hot when it comes to copyvio and close paraphrasing. Yes, WP:AGF is in there but if something slips through at this level and there has been no real attempt to check it out then it helps neither of us. At FA level, there are people who pretty much dedicate themselves to do spot checks of this nature, and rightly so. It is not intended to be a criticism of the contributors although, obviously, if there are serial examples of infringement then it could lead to WP:CCI etc. - Sitush (talk) 00:24, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. It seems unlikely the two Gale books will ever appear as a preview item on Amazon, nor are they available as preview items on GBooks. Of course, sources do not have to be online but, judging by the pagination, they appear to be small-ish corporate histories. Was Gale involved with CW&G? One of the items appears to be self-published by the firm; I've never heard of the other publisher. Do you have access to the things? I wouldn't mind seeing, say, pp. 13-18 of the 1974 work, just to get a feel for it. I thought that there might be a decent obituary in The Times but, alas, it is nothing much at all (paywall), although it does mention that he also attended South African College, Cape Town. - Sitush (talk) 13:21, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- When you say that "Guest senior" was managing the Frontier Times, do you mean the grandfather or Herbert Melville Guest? And is there no alternative to using a primary source - the war Office document - for HMG's name? I worry about original research when we get involved in genealogy based on primary sources.
- I've clarified that it was his grandfather who was managing the Frontier Times. The clearest source for HMG's name is the WO ref. However, he authored a small number of short books and these also can act as a reference.
- How does the WO ref clarify? There is a person called HMG, sure. Is it the same person as his father? How do we know this?
- The WO ref shows Ernest's father to be HMG. I'm not sure the name is absolutely required so I can remove this, if you prefer.
- How does the WO ref clarify? There is a person called HMG, sure. Is it the same person as his father? How do we know this?
- I've clarified that it was his grandfather who was managing the Frontier Times. The clearest source for HMG's name is the WO ref. However, he authored a small number of short books and these also can act as a reference.
- At the outbreak of the Second Boer War in 1899, Guest was two years short of the minimum age of 18 for enlisting. Perhaps my sums are wrong but the war began in October 1899 and Guest was born in August 1882, which makes him slightly less that two years' short. This sentence could be more simple & yet also more clear, eg: "Guest was too young to enlist for military service at the outbreak of the Second Boer War in October 1899". If people want to do the maths then they can but the minimum age etc here just seems like padding.
- Done Changed to "...below the minimum age...".
- That solves the sums but the sentence still seems a bit clunky to me. Whatever the outcome, if the "enlist" word remains then it might be worth linking to Enlist. - Sitush (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Done I've wikilinked enlist but the cadence of the sentence seems good to me, so have left it as per my revision.
- Cadence: a great word. OK, as I mentioned on your talk page, there is someone keeping an eye on goings-on here. It is fine for us to disagree and minor phrasing points are not a reason to fail a GAN. Nonetheless, the person who is looking in is one of our best copyeditors etc. They may have an opinion.
- That solves the sums but the sentence still seems a bit clunky to me. Whatever the outcome, if the "enlist" word remains then it might be worth linking to Enlist. - Sitush (talk) 13:00, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- ... after treatment for ptomaine poisoning he returned to Grahamstown unfit for further service seems to imply that it was the treatment that made him unfit.
- Done Clarified cause of unfitness... though it's possible the treatment didn't help!
- Three generations in the printing business. What printing business? And what were they printing? Presumably not fabrics, for example, given what they did next. Books, pamphlets, posters? Any idea?
- The sources don't say but my interpretation from what the family went on to do in Africa suggests it's printing on paper: newspapers, books, pamphlets etc, rather than textiles.
- He appears to have joined several service units during the Boer War but we have no understanding of why he was moving around thus. Were they, for example, belatedly realising that he was underage? Was he being disciplined? Were the units being disbanded or merged? Was he being officially transferred (if so, why?) or was it really some sort of free-for-all whereby people flitted around according to whim etc? Curious.
- As with the question above on printing, the sources don't make this clear, other than what is already in the article: sickness; his unit was disbanded; promotion leading to transfer; etc. I think there might well be a little bit of 'free-for-all' going on too.
- Reading through Gale again, I see that further details are given. I'll expand as appropriate.FunkyCanute (talk) 10:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- Done FunkyCanute (talk) 11:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- Reading through Gale again, I see that further details are given. I'll expand as appropriate.FunkyCanute (talk) 10:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- As with the question above on printing, the sources don't make this clear, other than what is already in the article: sickness; his unit was disbanded; promotion leading to transfer; etc. I think there might well be a little bit of 'free-for-all' going on too.
- He guided two officers from Lichtenburg to Klerksdorp with a message to the Boer Commandant.[2] He was captured but managed to escape to Warmbath. When was he captured? While en route to Klerksdorp (what happened to the officers?) or after leaving there? Do we need quite so much info about what happened after that?
- Done More about the capture and escape; less about what happened after. FunkyCanute (talk) 11:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
2nd batch edit
- I've just removed a paragraph in the Second Boer War section. The exploits of Guest's father and brother are just not relevant to this article unless they were involved with him in the fighting etc. If it was Guest family of Southern Rhodesia then there might be some point. I'm not going to make a habit of bold edits like this, btw. I'll tweak a few bits and we'll discuss a lot. - Sitush (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- As with my comments above regarding the Family section, it seems to me that mentions of his father's and brother's activities in the same war are not 'irrelevant', since they serve to portray the man's context. I fully agree that the comments about Bisley trophies are entirely superfluous. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- It looks like the family content is going to be something that we cannot agree on. It is probably no big deal but I might seek advice from more experienced GAN reviewers because focus is a part of the criteria (see item 3 therein). If you want to reinstate the paragraph that I removed then feel free to do so for now.
- As with my comments above regarding the Family section, it seems to me that mentions of his father's and brother's activities in the same war are not 'irrelevant', since they serve to portray the man's context. I fully agree that the comments about Bisley trophies are entirely superfluous. FunkyCanute (talk) 10:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
First World War edit
- Curious: why were Guest and Knowles summonsed for their recruitment activities but Brady was not? And do we need to mention Brady at all, given that he appears nowhere else in this article? It is not as if the men became bosom buddies or influenced each others' later career etc. - Sitush (talk) 12:36, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps Brady is unnecessary, although I suspect there is more to this story than Gale tells us. There are some interesting facts about the formation of the Rhodesian platoon in the King's Royal Rifle Corps, the links between the Rhodesia Regiment and KRRC, and Brady's part in it all. I will investigate further. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Done Tightened but kept Brady in. For FA, I guess he'll either need to be removed or more detail included that ties his and Guest's careers together. FunkyCanute (talk) 18:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps Brady is unnecessary, although I suspect there is more to this story than Gale tells us. There are some interesting facts about the formation of the Rhodesian platoon in the King's Royal Rifle Corps, the links between the Rhodesia Regiment and KRRC, and Brady's part in it all. I will investigate further. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, this is all rather confusing. Southern Rhodesia was at war but the administration did not recruit nor, it would seem, supply any existing forces. Then they (I presume "the Defence Dept" means the one in S Rhodesia) take a pop at Guest for recruiting, then official forces are raised. Is this correct? Do we need to mention who was seen at the Defence Department? What does "as a part of the Empire" mean in this context? - did the Act only apply to the UK? I presume "the Administration" is BSAC? Who changed their mind, causing the travel to South Africa rather than England?
- I will seek to clarify. I need to check sources: I'm now wondering if Gale (1974) is wrong here and that the 1st Rhodesia Regiment was intended for the South West Africa Campaign against German forces in German South West Africa (today Namibia) but were then redeployed against the Boer uprising in the Transvaal and Orange Free State. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Done Tightened and removed superfluous and confusing material. FunkyCanute (talk) 18:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- I will seek to clarify. I need to check sources: I'm now wondering if Gale (1974) is wrong here and that the 1st Rhodesia Regiment was intended for the South West Africa Campaign against German forces in German South West Africa (today Namibia) but were then redeployed against the Boer uprising in the Transvaal and Orange Free State. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- "Coghlan put no obstacle in his way and his wife was agreeable" comes out of nowhere because of the structuring of the article. He's mentioned in the lead but this is the first mention in the body & we have no context. And whose wife was agreeable? Presumably this refers to Mrs Guest?
- Thanks for further comments (and edits). I'll have a crack at improving the section during the next few days, which are rather busy for me but I'm hoping to find some time.FunkyCanute (talk) 10:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, this does appear out of nowhere and the article, I believe, is best served by striking the sentence out, since it doesn't really add anything. FunkyCanute (talk) 17:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- Done
There's one point i'm confused about. Is this on hold pending a spot check of sources, or has copyvio been found and all the sources have to be looked through? Wizardman 18:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- currently carrying out a check of sources FunkyCanute (talk) 17:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- I went ahead and did a spot-check on the online sources since Sitush has taken a long break. One sentence that I saw was iffy was "8,500 British aircrew were trained in Southern Rhodesia" which is identical to the source. I don't know how you would reword that though, maybe chance aircrew? Besides that everything checks out, so since there are no further issues I'll pass this article. Wizardman 03:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- Great! thanks! FunkyCanute (talk) 13:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
- I went ahead and did a spot-check on the online sources since Sitush has taken a long break. One sentence that I saw was iffy was "8,500 British aircrew were trained in Southern Rhodesia" which is identical to the source. I don't know how you would reword that though, maybe chance aircrew? Besides that everything checks out, so since there are no further issues I'll pass this article. Wizardman 03:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)