Talk:Electrical wiring in the United Kingdom/Archive 1

Electrical wiring (Europe)

Even though the wiring regulations in Europe had originally independent histories, thanks to more than three decades of harmonization efforts between the various committees, they are today to perhaps 90% technically identical, and thoroughly aligned with the relevant international (IEC) and European (CENELEC) standards. In the light of this, it may make sense to turn this page into Electrical wiring (Europe) before we start any serious work on it (there isn't much yet), and then merely attach at the very end a brief section that points out the remaining pretty minor differences between the British (IEE/BS 7671), German (DIN VDE 0100), etc. national implementations of the European and international wiring regulations, most of which are related to the plugs and sockets issue. Markus Kuhn 08:36, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any knowlage of other european countries wiring regs. but i belive there are some pretty major differences.

For example we in britan use T&E cable for almost everything but i don't think that cables with only single insulation on the earth are allowed in many european countries.

And then there is the ring main used in almost every british house but basically unheared of elsewhere.

and then there is the sockets in bathrooms issue.

maybe an article on wiring in europe would be a good idea but i think we would need at least an editor or two with experiance in the wiring regs accross europe and how they differ etc. Plugwash 13:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

From what I understand, there is nothing in, for example, DIN VDE 0100 that would prevent you from using ring wiring or uninsulated PE conductors in Germany. You must distinguish between what is common practice and tradition (done because that is how generations of electricians have learned it from their respective teachers), as opposed to what is required today by the letter of the latest regulations. As I understand the regulations, the difference between ring wiring and star wiring is one of cost and convenience, rather than one of compliance with a particular legal requirement. Likewise, current British IEE allow you to use sockets and normal switches in bathrooms if you keep a minimum distance from the tub, very similar to what is common practice in Germany, but inertia among UK builders and electritions causes them to continue using traditional ceiling switches with ropes unless the customer specifically asks for something different. There were substantial differences in the regulations until the mid 1980s. These difference have gone, but their influence on what electricians encounter in houses and what customers ask for will remain for many decades. In addition, trades people tend to change their habits only slowly, unless they are specifically forced to do something different (e.g., as was the case with the UK switching to IEC 60446 colours right now). I'll try to contribute a few things in that direction. I have access to the IEE regs, I have summary literature on the German regs, and I have some access to EN and IEC standards. Unfortunately, all these standards are ridiculously expensive to buy, so it would be a major research project to cover all the national regs, but comparing the current UK and German ones may be a pretty good start. Markus Kuhn 14:01, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

"Likewise, current British IEE allow you to use sockets and normal switches in bathrooms if you keep a minimum distance from the tub" switches yes sockets no. sockets are forbidden in the whole bathroom by BS7671 (its not technically a requirement to follow it but sparkys that don't are usually considered cowboys unless they have a very good reason. 15:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

In any case, at this point, there is still no info on electrical wiring outside US and UK... I found myself looking and looking for which countries have domestic 3phases supplied. (In Belgium most houses have 2 of the 3phases delivered, and very easily you can even get all 3phases; to go even further: lots of houses are even getting the 380/660 instead of the 230/380) 88.82.32.81 (talk) 22:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

e.g., i.e., n.b., and the rest

Of all the things that need fixing on Wikipedia...--Wtshymanski 19:38, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And your point is?

Meanwhile, the MoS (as currently written) is dead clear on this:

Scholarly abbreviations of Latin terms like i.e., e.g., or n.b. should be avoided and English terms such as that is, for example, or note used instead.

Atlant 22:14, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes, I thought the MoS was perfectly clear, too...but my learned co-editor reverted back to "e.g." from "for example". All the technical writing courses I've been on encourage me to avoid these abbreviations, too. --Wtshymanski 03:44, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The MoS is also dead clear that it is not required to be followed. Additionally, the bit quoted was unilaterally added without apparent discussion. I've posed that this be deleted (see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style). Cburnett 07:38, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

That entry in the MoS has been removed since it was added without consensus and there's no consensus to keep. Cburnett 16:11, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

May you someday have to puzzle through a very large technical document in a language not your own. THEN you might have some sympathy for the idea of writing in simple, to-the-point language and not language written to show off the author's own erudition.

Atlant 18:11, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

May you someday realize that things are not always done to boost or support one's ego. Excellent hypocritical humor, BTW. Cburnett 19:33, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

mcb

definition of mcb points to methodist college belfast. wrong. abbreviation has no valid start points to that link. (unsigned comment by Sandpiper).

Name

Think this would be better as Electrical wiring in the United Kingdom as Electrical wiring isn't a disambiguation page. Morwen - Talk 15:49, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't like the (undiscussed) 6 June 2007 move to Standards and regulations for electrical wiring in the United Kingdom, which is an awfully long title, and does not fully cover the scope of the article layed out in the introduction either. The original Electrical wiring (UK) was much better and shorter. I'd vote for reversing this move. Markus Kuhn 16:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Move now reverted. Markus Kuhn 08:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Erm

(cant think of good title section!)

Ring circuits: the main differences are not mentioned here, the cable size is just one of the notable differences. Others are significantly increased safety & reliability, ability to have large numbers of sockets per circuit, and the historic reason that existing round pin circuits could be converted to rings with no rewiring.

It might be worth mentioning that the unusually large plug size makes a mountiain out of what are molehill sized adaptors & multiway sockets in other countries.

Plug fuses in use today are: 3A, 13A - most common 5A, 2A - also used 1A, 7A, 10A - in use but not common

One significant purpose of a plug fuse for each appliance not mentioned is that unlike the older round pin system, when a faulty appliance pops a fuse and gets plugged in by someone else later, this time its fuse prevents it being connected to any live connection. This safety feature is missing from unfused plugs used elsewhere.

"meaning that under fault conditions the contacts and flex will be subjected to anything up to the maximum ring main current."

Its unclear what 'maximum ring main current' means there, but would probably be taken to mean 30A or 32A by most readers. In fact the real world current flow is greatly in excess of this.

Ring circuits are not called ring mains.

Almost all modern CUs also contain an RCD and/or RCBOs.

Many requirements mentioned apply only to new installs, and are not requirements for most existing installations.

The 220/230/240 issue: http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Electricity_Basics#230v_or_240v Tabby 22:26, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Brown Black Grey

I'm struggling to find a reference to this, but at the time I remember part of the resistance (excuse the pun) to new colours was that Europe wanted to have Brown-Black-Black and the IEE fought to get a distinct colour for Phase 3. paypwip (talk) 15:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

See [1] for some of the history behind this. Britain was basically the only country in Europe that had used three distinct colours for the phase before harmonization, and wanted to stick to what they were used to. Everyone else considered a requirement to keep so many differently coloured wires on stock wasteful and used instead a phase rotation tester to check the rotational direction on any connected three-phase sockets or loads, and also wanted to stick to what they were used to. I doubt that there is solid comparable data on which approach is "better" according to any particular metric, these things tend to be deeply rooted in national trade traditions. Another factor that might have lead for Britain to argue in favour of three distinct colours is that testing 3-phase ring final circuits with ambiguous colours can become cumbersome and error prone, whereas this is not really an issue in the radial circuits used in other countries. If you don't have rings, the identity of the phase (L1, L2, or L3) doesn't really matter, only the direction of rotation does, so you can easily use the same colour for all three phases. Markus Kuhn (talk) 18:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Markus, thanks for the link. As a member of the IEE I should have looked there first. (slaps self on head). A couple of points: a phase rotation tester only works on a live circuit - not much help when you're connecting up; secondly we don't tend to have three-phase ring circuits, only single-phase; Lastly, you can have two cables with the same rotation, but still be out of phase. While (as you say) this wouldn't matter on final circuits, it is not a good situation to be in when wiring up a sub-main to a switch which parallels two live feeds. we have an old joke in the UK when connecting up three-phase - Red to Red, Yellow to Yellow and Blue (Blew) to bits. So personally, I'm glad the harmonised colours are distinct. Thanks again for the link. paypwip (talk) 19:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a document with much greater detail on the history. paypwip (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)