Talk:Education in the United Kingdom/Archive 1

Archive 1

Article is despeciable

Compared to awsome articles such as Education in Sweden,Education in Japan, Education in the United States. This one article on the topic is really unformative. Lord Metroid 16:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Education infobox

I created a template, Template:Education infobox which can give a quick at a glance demographics table for education articles. See its implementation at Education in the United States and feel free to help improve the template.--naryathegreat | (talk) 01:00, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

The content from School years (United Kingdom) was integrated into this article. However it probably ought to be broken down into Education in England, Education in Scotand, etc by someone who feels at home with the topic. -- Mic 19:31, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)

---

Mentions about uniforms and pupils not wanting to wear them - surely this is purely a matter of opinion and not factual in any way? Who has the authority to say that people grow up and want their children to wear uniform? This needs to be removed.Chrisp7

Regarding this page being split into four: This has been broken down too much! Education in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is identical! The differences are no different than those between counties. I propose either a return to one page with two headings for England, Wales and Northern Ireland and Scotland or having just two pages using the same headings.

Furthermore, all the UK-wide information is now included in England's entry (when it in fact covers the entire UK). This is a mess.

Thoughts from anyone?

They are not the same at all! Look at their assessment practices for example - these differ hugely between the countries. England still have statutory national testing testing at 3 key stages. Wales currently do them at 2 keystages, but may soon not have them at all [1]. Northern Ireland never had them. Northern Ireland still have the 11 plus, whereas Wales don't at all, and it's limited in England. The assessment regulating bodies are separate in each country. The countries have different school starting ages. The requirements for teacher training are different in Wales. etc etc. There's no way these can be grouped together. Angela. 00:14, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)

You make some good points, but I'm still not entirely convinced (and I'm a British teacher). Perhaps more of an effort could be made in the articles of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland to point out that the systems are broadly similar. Furthermore, teacher training is not that different in Wales (they have to do one less test) and Northern ireland are scrapping the 11+. Also, the UK-wide information must be stripped out of England's entry.

Do you think having one article, but dividing it into separate sections for the different countries would be a better solution? By the way, you might want to login so you have a username. It makes discussions easier to follow when you can sign them. The login page describes other benefits too. Oh, and don't write off the 11+ in NI just yet. It's going to be here for a few more years I'm led to believe. Angela. 23:56, Feb 8, 2004 (UTC)

I believe this would be appropriate for the relatively minor differences in the system in England, N.Ireland and Wales. Scotland however has always had an entirely different system and imo deserves it's own page.

Adult Education

Interesting. Very schools and uni-oriented (OK, that's kind of fair enough, considering that's where most of the education budget goes), but nothing on AE and very little on FE. They deserve at least a passing mention, I think. Will see if I can figure out where to put something within the 'collaboration fortnight' without messing existing stuff up. (Not really my specialism, but I've done some work with AE depts now and then.) Tarquin Binary 23:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Cooking?

I'm not sure about the rest of the U.K, but "cooking" in Northern Ireland is also about childcare, shopping and life at home among other things and is called H.E (Home Economics).

Exactly, so why is it referred to as such?--79.72.40.94 (talk) 21:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Exclusion link

Hey, the exclusion link in the article takes you to a disambiguation page that mentions nothing of what it means in this context. Just FYI. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.197.19.242 (talk) 21:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

First, middle & high schools

I see no mention of this system (first school age 4/5-8, middle school age 8-12, high school age 12-16)! CC 91 13:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

We use Infants, Juniors, Seniors. it's already on there. -Grim- 02:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No, Infants is 4/5 - 7; Juniors is 7 - 11; Secondary school ("Seniors" is not mentioned in the article at all) is 11 - 16. I think the system of First, middle, high, with the different age brackets, is available in some areas of England/Wales. Stannered 11:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It's gonna change to Infant-Junior-High in my area in September anyway. Not sure if it applies to other areas. CC 91 18:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

First, Middle and High is used in town I come from in North Worcestershire. The age brackets are First school 4-9, Middle School 9-13 and High School 13-16. I know this is true because I went through this system and it is still in place. The graphic used to display 'the English school system' is incorrect. It does not take into account first, middle and high schools proper. The article on Middle Schools shows this. T.roome 20:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This still seems (in my opinion) to be an unresolved point... given that there are still quite a few middle schools around, someone more sensible than me should add some sort of clarification... Trust (talk) 21:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it appears t depend on location. The primary school I attended (in NI) P.1 to P.4 was to refered to as junior school who finshed school at 2 o'clock and senior school was refering to P.5 to P7 who finished school at 3 o'clock--79.72.40.94 (talk) 21:29, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Ill-informed and inaccurate

This is a shoddy article. It seems to be written by someone who is not within education at the moment and is using their own half-remembered experience of school and what they have picked up in the newspapers about school reforms. They possibly have a kid in school, and have misunderstood a few ideas there. I have tidied up some of the glaring spelling errors and typos. I have also started to tidy up the section on curriculum and will start to add cited sources (govt. sites etc) and clear explanations of the subjects today. i.e. it isn't 'IT' but 'ICT', cookery is no lomger taught, nor indeed, Home Ed. - Food Technology is the vogue - forming part of technology as a whole. The issue of Grammars and Secondary moderns is not explained (these exist in some areas). There are still lots of errors in the articles. I'm going to invite a few more teachers to come and sort the mess out!

Inaccurate Information

Not only is the article not of the standard formate, with an infobox for general information, but much of the information is untrue. The assertion that all students begin secondary school at eleven is untrue, as many (most/all?) leading public schools do not begin until the age of 13. Smiles Aloud 12:36, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the information which links Northern Ireland's, England's Wales' education systems together is woefully inaccurate. For example, children in England and Wales are only guaranteed 6 years of primary education whereas in Northern Ireland they are guaranteed 7, also the compulsory age of education in Northern Ireland is 4, not 5 as stated. Those are just 2 inaccuracies I found when having a glance.--79.72.40.94 (talk) 21:24, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

England, Wales, N. Ireland, Scotland articles

As linked to in the opening line of this article, there are articles on Education in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland which are of a better quality than this one - if the system is devolved is a single article on Education in the UK necessary? I'm really not sure what it's trying to achieve. Alaeangelorum 16:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There is a case for this page just being a disambiguation page. Any thoughts? Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

As a single country, the topic of how education is structured within it is an encyclopaedic and interesting one. Comparisons and contrasts - an overview - should be made in this article. If the article is poor quality then it should be improved not removed. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I took your point and have started to change the article so it provides comparisons. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

P.E. Mandatory?

I'm pretty sure PE is not a mandatory GCSE as this article says. It wasn't when I did my GCSEs 4 years ago, and my sister is in the middle of her exams right now and I know for a fact she isn't doing a GCSE in PE. 81.109.27.158 (talk) 23:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

It still isn't. Doing a GCSE in PE is not compulsory but doing a certain of amount of physical activity a week is. For example currently I am timetabled for doing 1hr of PE and 1hr of Games (i.e. rugby)a week but I am not studying GCSE PE, what I am doing is fulfilling the statutory requirement for schools to have children participating in 2hrs of physical activity a week. Therefore the article is correct in that aspect, although perhaps badly worded. --79.72.40.94 (talk) 21:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ireland

I have removed NI from the section with England and Wales as the part on Primary School education is not correct for NI.

In Northern Ireland, primary school education is compulsory from the age of four. The lower limit of compulsory education is defined as those who attain their fourth birthday by the 1st July. Children are guaranteed seven years of primary education, as opposed to the six guaranteed in England and Wales. --79.72.40.94 (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

This article is pointless as it stands!

I've just come across this article, (looking to find something about RE teaching in schools) and I am surprised by what I've found. I can understand that the article is trying to compare the different systems but it doesn't do a good job - it would be better if it very briefly described that each country in the UK has its own system and then linked to the four articles 'Education in England', Scotland etc 86.150.206.234 (talk) 17:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the article would be improved if it was in the form of comparative tables. I've done one below which uses the text already in the article but adds it to a table. Anyone think this would be better to add for all the subheadings? Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 16:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Operations

Country
England	Children attend secondary education from the age of eleven, going to a comprehensive school, grammar school or an independent (fee-paying) school. Some local authorities operate a three-tier system, where children leave primary school aged 9 to go on to a middle school until the age of 13. All of these types of schools may be single sex or co-educational, however the vast majority of comprehensive schools are co-educational. School hours generally fall between 0830 hours and 1600 hours, though schools are free to set their own hours. Children go to school from Monday to Friday for three terms and have thirteen weeks of holiday which are Easter, Christmas and the summer, with a week breaking up each of the three terms (Half Term). Some local authorities have a 'six-term year', numbering each half term one to six. Independent schools usually have a longer school day, sometimes including Saturday mornings, and longer holidays in compensation.
Scotland	All local authority schools are comprehensive schools which the vast majority of pupils attend. Local Authorities set the dates for holidays in their own areas, though all teachers in local authority schools have the same holiday entitlement - effectively 12 weeks per year. The teachers' contract actually stipulates that teachers are expected to work 195 days per year, of which 5 working days are In-Service Training days. This means that pupils effectively get 13 weeks' holiday per year. The teachers' contract also stipulates that working hours of secondary schools should be 27.5 hours per week, though teachers are expected to work a 35 hour week. As part of the McCrone agreement, teachers are entitled to work 'at a time and place of their choosing' if not required for actual teaching duties. Since the maximum pupil contact time is 22.5 hours, all teachers will have time during school hours when they may choose to leave the building for some other purpose - on the basis that they will be working the hours at some other time.

All of the Scotland section also applies to England and Wales except for the first half of the first sentence. Dbfirs 11:12, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

There is no mention of Special Educational Needs provision in the UK

I have just come across the is article, while looking for a useful wiki page that describes Special Education Needs provision in the UK, the Disability Discrimination Acts statutory Disability Equality Duty requirements, etc. And references to the Revent Bercow Review regartding the provisiom of Speech and Langauge, and Communication support in UK schools. As well as recent Case law such as the Phelps case.

dolfrog (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. Since education is a devolved matter, you will find that Special Needs Provision varies from country to country. The Bercow review, for example, is of no relevence to Scotland. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 21:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

There is a link in the See also section to the Wikipedia article on Special education in the United Kingdom. Dahliarose (talk) 10:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Diagram for visual presentation of school system

Hi.

I was looking to get a quick overview over the school system in USA, Norway, Brazil and UK. A diagram for the USA school system was very informative. I understand that there are some differences in the education system where the differences is between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. For someone that know and understand these system. Could I suggest that a Diagram is made for each of the four countries. Similar diagram in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Sweden, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Japan and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States. I do not believe that the school systems can easily be better presented than that (this in addition to existing written text and link’s of course) . If anyone can take this initiative it would be great. I am afraid it is a little above me to make this type of Diagram (lack of knowledge:-) If it should be presented under UK or under different pages specific for each country I have no comment / suggestion for now.

We do have a table, but it could certainly be expanded (any volunteers?) There are only minor differences between the countries of the UK, so these can be dealt with in notes. For further detail, see the separate linked articles. Education in Scotland has a table showing comparisons. Dbfirs 11:30, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Funding section - NPOV issues

I've flagged the Funding section for Neutral point-of-view issues. As it stands it's little more than a long rambling criticism of the funding policies of the current UK government and as such it's not encyclopaedic. I was tempted to remove all but the first paragraph, but I thought I'd leave it be for now as I think it could be improved rather than junked. I'm not suggesting we need to remove all criticism of the government - there are enough critics of the policies to justify inclusion - but at the moment it's rather unbalanced. If I get time I'll try and improve it myself but if anyone else could help, that would be great! Neiltonks (talk) 15:49, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

I completely agree, I will remove some of the worst bits now. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 16:25, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Education in the United Kingdom. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111215231442/http://www.britishcouncil.org/flasonline-uk-education-system.pdf to http://www.britishcouncil.org/flasonline-uk-education-system.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:32, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Higher/ Further/ Vocational categoriesS C Cheese (talk) 09:28, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

The article is inconsistent in these categories. Early on it distinguishes "Higher" and "Further". But then it puts "Vocational" under "Higher".

Further/Higher Education

This article refers to English/Welsh A/GCSE level school qualifications as “British/UK” qualifications - to be properly accurate and comprehensive it should provide the equivalent Scottish etc. qualifications, undertaken by many British schoolchildren, which are also recognised UCAS entry qualifications. Belleab31 (talk) 08:43, 9 August 2021 (UTC)