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Talk:Eduard Fraenkel/GA1

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Latest comment: 2 years ago by Modussiccandi in topic GA Review

GA Review edit

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 21:30, 25 December 2021 (UTC)Reply


Happy to take this article on, Modussiccandi. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:30, 25 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Review edit

Lead section/infobox edit

  • Link classical scholar and remove link lower down in the lead
  • Universities of Berlin and Göttingen – the links don't go to where you expect it them to
Understood. AM
  • Replace England with the UK?
  • Full name for H. J. Rose?
  • Link University of Oxford; monograph; doctoral thesis (Thesis), antisemitic legislation (Antisemitism)
  • (Plautinisches im Plautus, 1922); (Horace, 1957) - remove brackets and incorporate into the sentences.
  • Consider including more of his personal life, including the fact that committed suicide, in the lead
  • I've been reluctant to include much on his personal life (including his death) because I've been admonished to keep my leads shorter at FAC. On the death in particular, editors seem to have different views. I've generally left causes of death out of the lead, but I would reconsider in the face of further arguments in favour. Modussiccandi (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Understood, and it's tricky when editors approach handling the lead in a biography in different ways. In the end, the MOS trumps any editorial opinion on how the lead is written. In Fraenkel's case, because of the traumatic nature of his death (and aspects of his life), I think the best guidance is that anything in the lead needs to be "related to the person's notability", as emphasised in WP:MOSBIO. This article says "Unless the cause of death is itself a reason for notability, a single sentence describing the death is usually sufficient, and often none is included in the lead at all, just a death date." I would probably include the nature of his death, but I'll leave it to you to decide. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • family - 'a family'
  • abandon his academic career in Germany and to is redundant and can be deleted
  • settling eventually - somewhere around here I think it should be explained how his career continued at Oxford
  • As I've explained above, I've tried to keep things reasonably short in the lead. In this particular instance, I reckoned that the key bit of information about his career at Oxford (the professorship) was contained in the first sentence. The seminars, the other important part, are in the third lead paragraph. Of course, I'm open to suggestions as to what could be appended to that sentence. Modussiccandi (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Understood, we can leave it as it is. AM
  • perhaps the most erudite that any Greek play has ever had doesn't require a citation as it's an uncontroversial statement (and is cited in the main text); ditto the second reference
  • also is redundant.
  • comoaedia - an online search provided results only when this word is spelt 'comoedia'
  • in the borough of Tempelhof - shouldn't it be clearer that this is in Berlin?
  • Consider linking undergraduates; seminars

1 Early life and education edit

  • a life-threatening bout – was this a recurring illness, as is implied by ‘bout’?
  • It seems to have been a one off. I've tried to reflect that in the new text. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, AM
  • severely deformed - severely is redundant
  • where he was educated by – implies he had no other teachers, surely not true
  • he later credited – later needs to be clarified
  • according to the source, he wrote this in his PhD dissertation. I've added that to the text. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Looks good. AM
  • comma after to study law?
  • his Jewish faith would have made it difficult – but it was Nazi policy that made it difficult, not his faith
  • You are right; I've gone for 'antisemitic hiring conventions' because Fraenkel was a student a few decades before Hitler came to power. This particular (informal) practice of discrimination already existed at that time. I'm open to further tweaking this bit. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Looks good now. AM
  • Though still pursuing… this sentence needs copy-editing to ensure it makes better sense and cannot be misconstrued
  • he formally – 'Fraenkel formally'?
  • (De media et nova comoaedia quaestiones selectae) – it needs to be clearer what this is (again, I would take out the brackets)
  • 4 mentors are listed, but one is illustrated. Is there a reason selecting Leo alone? Also, the caption for Leo seems overlong.
  • I've chosen to include a picture of Leo because he was a particularly influential figure for Fraenkel's biography e.g. for his role as a predecessor and mentor on Roman comedy. I've reduced the caption. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Understood, but it might be better to move this image to the Plautus subsection. It currently looks out of place, being shunted down by the infobox, and imo it looks misplaced in the Early life and education, as the text in the article doesn't reflect your reply here, and readers might expect portraits of Fraenkel or his family members to be placed at the top of the article. Thoughts? Amitchell125 (talk) 09:50, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
A good idea; I've moved Leo to the Plautus section. I might be able to find an appropriate image for the education section. I saw you deleted the full stop at the end of the Leo caption. I left it in there because I thought it was needed after a syntactically complete sentence. I didn't want to add it back in before consulting you here. Modussiccandi (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Feel free to reinstate! AM
  • while his father's uncle - avoid while unless it connected with a period of time
  • relationship needs clarification - friendship, working relationship?
  • I'm not sure. The source I've cited says that Fraenkel attended Wilamowitz's lectures and approached him for advice. I suspect I left it intentionally vague. Perhaps, 'began to be to mentored' (I've put that in the text for now). Modussiccandi (talk) 21:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
OK. AM

2 Career in Germany edit

  • Ruth von Velsen – the German Wikipedia has more information about her family, which might be worth including in a separate note
  • They say that she was the sister of the author Dorothee von Velsen. I wonder where this bit is from. (it's unsourced in the de.wiki and I don't remember any of my sources mentioning it.) I will certainly include it if I find a source. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Understood. AM
  • which had established – had is redundant imo
  • and his family: - Wikipedia uses semicolons, not colons
  • from illness - 'from an illness'?
  • amend anti-Semitic hostility to Antisemitism (linked)
  • I've changed the wording. The link to Antisemitism is now earlier in the article because I added the word there. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, looks sorted. AM
  • Why is "personal quarrels" quoted?
  • The source says that he was subjected to antisemitic slurs in the context of a faculty meeting. I wasn't quite sure how best to phrase the corresponding section, so I opted to use the wording of the source. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure readers would understand why the phrase is there, perhaps you could mention the author of the phrase, or paraphrase the expression to make its meaning clearer, as you have done in your reply here. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:01, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I've added the name of the author. Modussiccandi (talk) 17:52, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Looks better now. AM
  • Professorship is not capitalized
  • successful tenure – why successful?
  • The source explains that Fraenkel greatly enjoyed his time at Freiburg and was looking to stay there permanently. I thought "successful" could be an appropriate work to describe this. Perhaps we could say e.g. 'happy' or 'fulfilling'. What do you think? Modussiccandi (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Your explanation makes perfect sense, and I'd put that in, although 'fulfilling' would be OK (it sounds less vague than successful).Amitchell125 (talk) 09:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
  • when Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP) came to power – Hitler became chancellor in January, not in the spring
  • Indeed. I've changed the text to reflect that the their coming to power came first. Modussiccandi (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Looks good now. AM
  • Although Fraenkel was removed – although seems to be redundant here
  • The source suggests that it was surprising that Fraenkel chose not to leave the country right away. That's why I went for "although". Modussiccandi (talk) 21:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
I think think the point about Fraenkel delaying his departure from Germany is worth making, but I'm not sure that although helps here. Going into exile may, for instance, have been a difficult decision for him to make, or difficult to accomplish because of the attitude of the authorities, etc. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:01, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I hadn't thought about it this way. I've rearrange the sentence to get rid of the concessive clause. Modussiccandi (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Looks sorted. AM
  • to support Fraenkel - consider replacing he at the beginning of the sentence with Fraenkel to improve the prose
  • (NSDAP) seems unnecessary, as the organisation is not mentioned again

3 Exile in England edit

  • Is a picture of the street he lived in needed here?
Thanks. AM
  • moved his family and possessions to a house in Cambridge – surely much of this is redundant (I would amend to something like 'moved to Cambridge')
  • in the autumn of the same year – 'during the autumn'?
  • When it proved difficult to sustain his family with his position at Trinity seems wordy, how about something like 'For financial reasons, Fraenkel was forced to…'?
  • I quite like the detail of the current version. 'For financial reasons' would quite do his motives justice since the tour was intended as a stepping stone to a permanent appointment at another university. Of course, I'd be happy to find a compromise should you continue to object. Modussiccandi (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
No, happy with your reply here. AM
  • The Sunday Times, whose columnist John Buchan – didn't Buchan, not The Times, oppose his appointment?
  • These seminars, attended – I suggest 'These were attended' (to avoid repeating seminars)
  • I've done something similar to the same effect, I hope. Modussiccandi (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thanks. AM
  • academic life in Continental Europe – 'European academic life' or similar would be less wordy
  • that had been rare – 'that was rare'?
  • During term time, participants would meet once a week for two hours - seems unencyclopedic, amend to something like 'met regularly'
  • From autumn 1936 to Spring 1942, - inconsistent use of capitals
  • Link Cambridge
  • Fraenkel was elected to the chair in 1935 - I would date events in the paragraph sooner than this
  • At the start of the paragraph, we're in the second half of 1934, which is where the last paragraph ended and the chair fell vacant. The election itself happened in 1935. I reckoned it would be redundant to repeat 1934 at the start of the second paragraph, but perhaps I'm misunderstanding your comment. Modussiccandi (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2021 (UTC)Reply
No, looking again I can see what you mean. No amendment needed. AM
  • Upon his election to the Corpus Christi Professorship - 'Upon his election'?

4 Retirement and death edit

  • his seminars – just 'seminars'?
  • I would amend Around 1955 to 'In around 1955'
  • (Edizioni di Storia e Letteratura); (Orthographica and Graeca Latina) – I would improve the prose by removing the brackets
  • Friedrich Leo is just Leo (the same thing occurs in the next paragraph)
  • he published a monograph – replace he with 'Fraenkel', for the sake of clarity
  • his wife's health began to deteriorate – it might be useful to know which year this began
  • The source is very vague on this point ("Ruth's health gave him more and more cause to worry"). Modussiccandi (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • The last sentence implies a connection between the two events. Assuming this is true, it should be more clearly stated.
  • I went for "followed" because I wanted to convey merely that he took his own life on the day his wife died. I wouldn't say that a connection is implied (except for a temporal one, of course). On a different note, I think it's fair to assume that her death contributed to his suicide, but I wouldn't want to speculate. The relevant source says that "he had no will to continue living", which I take to be an extrapolation. So, in short, I think "followed" is appropriate because it doesn't suggest an outright causal connection between the two deaths. Modussiccandi (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Understood, but (apologies) I've only just realised they died on the same day. I think this needs to be added. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:23, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  Done Modussiccandi (talk) 11:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • and publisher seems redundant, seeing as it says he ran a publishing company
  • on the Roman poet Horace - as Horace appears earlier in the article, the Roman poet is not needed imo

5.1 Plautus edit

  • nineteenth century - '19th century'
  • his work – I’m unclear whether this is referring to all the writings Plautus produced or the single work specified in the sentence.
  • argumentation – it would help if the reference after this word was at the end of the sentence.
  • I placed the reference in this awkward position because it only informs the sentence up to this point; the source at the end only speaks to the second part. I thought it'd be imprecise to have them both at the end. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:10, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I do exactly this when expanding an article, but (after comments from others) have then moved the references along, the argument being that the flow of the sentence shouldn't interrupted. Please ignore me if you wish. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • ('Plautine elements in Plautus') The translations are not consistently present. If this one exists, so should the others.
  • not as a source for middle comedy – consider moving this to the end of the sentence
  • Fraenkel's approach – approach to what?
  • Put semi-colons in the sentence that lists the elements (see MOS:SEMICOLON)
  • I found to insinuate their own transformation into someone else tricky. Can you explain it in layman’s terms?
  • This one is difficult. What's in the text already represents my attempt at an accessible phrasing. Perhaps you could help me arrive at a better version. The fact described is that Plautus' characters tend to say things in the vain of "would that I were to wake up as Terence tomorrow" or the like. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:10, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
I think I was thrown by insinuate, which has connotations of unpleasantness. Perhaps use 'intimate' instead?
  Done Modussiccandi (talk) 20:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • his creative use – presumably 'his creative use of'
  • an Italian translation – it might be a good idea to give the title of what was translated here.
  • I'm afraid I'm being slow: are we looking for the Italian title or a recapitulation of the German one? Modussiccandi (talk) 19:10, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
A recapitulation. AM
  Done Modussiccandi (talk) 20:03, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
  • The book could be replaced with its title, to ensure readers don’t think you are referring to the Italian version here
Thanks. AM
  • I’m guessing the 3 references following The book was met with positive reviews. are all of positive reviews, but they don’t really provide a citation to verify the text. I’d remove the sentence (it’s a bit redundant imo)
  • he described – 'Prescott described' (as opposed to Leo)
  • although some of its arguments had been rejected – doesn’t make sense here
  • I've changed the conjunction and the place in the sentence. I'm not sure if this addresses you point. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:10, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Yes, that's better. AM

5.2 Aeschylus edit

  • to Oxford University Press – 'to the Oxford University Press'
  • I would say that Oxford University Press is normally treated as a proper name. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Apologies, my error. AM
  • the press's delegate – needs to be copy edited
  • In his commentary – of the manuscript or the published work?
  • Both, I suppose. This was meant as a general observation on his methodology. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:20, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Understood. AM
  • beyond the play itself – that the Agamemnon is a play should have been mentioned earlier
  • guttatim – should be italics without quotes (as it's a term)
  • the classical scholar H. J. Rose – Rose is not described as such in the lead section?

5.3 Horace edit

  • earliest and latest work – 'works' sounds better imo
  • his chapters – replace with 'Fraenkel’s chapters' (a Wikipedia idiosyncrasy)
  • Epistles – needs to be in italics
  • dactylic metres - should be followed with a semi-colon
  • celebratory him - ??
  • I actually had to think for a moment, but I seem to have wanted to write 'hymn'. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:30, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
OK. AM
  • Philologie needs a bracket
  • In 1957, he published a book entitled Horace, which - consider replacing with 'Horace (1957)'
  • I would introduce Ronald Syme
  • In his The Roman Revolution, Syme had depicted - 'In The Roman Revolution, Syme depicted'?

6 Reception edit

  • Unlink Second World War (common term)
  • Unlink Iris Murdoch (duplicate link)
  • I would amend viewed Fraenkel to 'views Fraenkel', as Stray is a living person
  • The meetings were attended mainly by undergraduates with whom Fraenkel shared his broad knowledge in several areas of the Classics. doesn't seem to belong to this section, unless it is incorporated into the previous sentence.

7 Honours edit

  • the universities of Urbino, St. Andrews, Florence, Fribourg – the links don’t lead where you expect them to
  • My idea was to link the institutions, not the cities. Wouldn't you say that this is implied by "the universities of"? Modussiccandi (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Understood, I can't think how it could be changed for the better, so happy to leave it as it is. AM

9 Bibliography edit

  • I would remove Momigliano – the source is not cited
  • The sources need to be consistently formatted in terms of the publisher and location of each one.
  • Link Christopher Stray and Hugh Lloyd-Jones throughout the section
  • Add 'lang=fr' to Kamerbeek, as the article is in French

Modussiccandi, this is a solid article. I've gone through it, but not yet checked the links and references. Please feel free to make a start on addressing my comments, and getting back to me if you have queries I can help answer. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 21:12, 26 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks a lot. I'll get started tomorrow or the day after. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 22:11, 26 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Other links edit

  • Fraenkel's Horace and thesis are available at the Internet Archive (here).
  • 'Pfeiffer, Fraenkel, and Refugee Scholarship in Oxford during and after the Second World War: Refugee Scholars and Oxford University, 1930-1945' is available here

Comments completed. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:37, 27 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

On hold edit

I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 4 January 2022 to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 15:38, 27 December 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your efforts so far, I've added a  N alongside comments that still need to be addressed. mainly to help me as you fill the gaps. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:37, 1 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
There are a couple of points left to tidy up, otherwise we're sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:33, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thank you for your patience. I think I've now addressed the two remaining red crosses. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 20:04, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Now at GA, congratulations and have a Happy New Year! Amitchell125 (talk) 20:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
Great! Thank you for another thorough review. Let me know if I can ever be of any help to you. Modussiccandi (talk) 20:19, 2 January 2022 (UTC)Reply
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