Talk:Dune Messiah/Archive 1

Archive 1

Discussion

removed the matrix link. whether or not the matrix revolution borrows heavily from dune messiah (and if it does it's in THEME not in STYLE nor in PLOT) is simply a matter of opinion, as is the page the link leads to. If someone would like to find some sort of Academic writing to support that hypothesis and add THAT link, go for it. This is an encyclopedia not a sounding board for opinions. 66.82.9.65 22:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed "Novelinfoboxincomp"

I've just uploaded a new coverscan for the infobox, and entered the missing details, so I've removed the tag.

Gardener of Geda 10:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Jihad

To back up Gwern's revert, Jihad#Usage of the term expresses the term's broader usage beyond a specifically Muslim holy war, and the Wictionary definition concurs. TAnthony 01:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

(sorry, reverted before I saw this discussion, didnt want to start revert war)

It's all well and good that jihad has become anglicized to suit someone's word choice (and perhaps, false sense of cultural awareness), but several points: 1) a person coming upon this site will think that the jihad mentioned by Herbert is related to the jihad of the Muslims, its most oft-cited usage today, which one cannot prove unless you have a credible secondary source, which to my knowledge, has not been discovered.

2) Regardless of how jihad is used today by anyone of any religious or ethnic persuasion, we cannot prove in any way that the jihad of Herbert's Dune universe is in any way, shape, or form related to jihad (of any meaning) in modernity. To link to the jihad article is an obfuscation of the fictional nature of the Dune universe, and will lead the reader to believe that the jihad, any definition used today, are one and the same with Herbert's intended meaning of the word. As for Gwern's revert, I don't think Wikipedia is place to conjecture about Herbert's intended use and meanings, I believe that is a violation of WP:OR. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.227.132.178 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no conjecture here. He uses it at least 44 times in his works, the Fremen are descended from Islamic groups (the Zensunni, remember?), they use Islamic words and concepts - of which jihad is perhaps the most interesting example because of current geo-politics, granted - frequently, Herbert was not an ignorant man and he studied Islam as part of his research for the novels and Dune in particular, Paul's conquest of the Imperium is identified as a holy war and jihad against the unbelievers, etc ad nauseam. To argue it has nothing to do with any of the real-world understandings of the word is ignorant and tendentious in the extreme. --Gwern (contribs) 23:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

A person who comes to this site and accepts anything on it without checking other sources is a fool, plain and simple. That's the nature of the beast, whatever the good intentions of WP founders and us users.

As envisioned by Frank Herbert, the Fremen are a (fictional) group of future descendants of Muslim people and they have inherited various cultural traditions and concepts from their ancestors. FH used the word "jihad" in the sense of a Holy War, so I fail to see how his usage is NOT connected to the "jihad of the Muslims".

What's the real agenda here, anyway?

I don't see why the word has to be linked in the first place. Why not just link to the Wiktionary entry on jihad, if there is one? --SandChigger 02:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Bijaz is a master?

There is no definitive evidence that Bijaz is a Master! There is a great deal of evidence against it in fact. Tleilax Master B 13:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. If there is contradictory evidence in the texts, please present it here. When I get a chance I will look thru my text file of Messiah and see what I find. I think the implication that he is a Master come from the fact that he uses the humming to control Hayt. Only Masters do that, no? TAnthony 16:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The humming is certainly quite interesting and suggestive, but the important bit from DM is this:

"Scytale is dead," Paul said.

"But I am not and the plan is not," Bijaz said. "By the tank in which I grew! It can be done! I shall have my pasts ‐‐ all of them. It needs only the right trigger."

Which is to say, Bijaz has had multiple pasts, and who else among the Tleilaxu have had multiple lives? The Masters, like the apparently promoted Face Dancer Scytale. (I always sort of wondered about that - if Face Dancers really were the lowest rung of Tleilaxu society, how did Scytale go from Face Dancer to Master?). --Gwern (contribs) 17:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all Duncan has had multiple pasts, and he isn't a Master either. There is no reason to assume that the BT would not make multiple gholas of an individual, particularly if that set of skills was useful for them. As Paul says: A Tleilaxu toy, learned and alert, Paul thought. The Bene Tleilax never threw away something this valuable.

Nor can we assume that at this point in DM they were using the "serial ghola" immortality of Masters--particularly since they haven't figured out how to awaken serial memories yet!

Bijaz is using the Humming language because, and I quote from DM:

There had to be a flaw in the Tleilaxu logic.In making their ghola,they had keyed him to the voice of Bijaz.

I suggest that this is not the standard whistling language (note: Scytale actually refers to it as "whistling language" in CHD for gholas, not "humming"--but Waff "hums" at Tuek in Heretics, who is a FD) that all Masters know, its been keyed specifically to Bijaz. Also, Scytale (bear in mind that even Bijaz calls the awakening of Duncan in Hayt "Scytale's plan", not his own) refers to Bijaz as the "catalyst-dwarf".

Additionally, Bijaz's use of language implies that he and Hayt are subservient to the masters of Tleilax (all quotes from DM):

Bijaz nodded, eyes drooping as though tiring. Then: "He will be tempted . . and in his distraction, you will move close. In the instant, you will strike! Two gholas, not one! That is what our masters demand!"

There is more to the message. It is a trade the Tleilaxu offer your precious Paul Atreides. Our masters will restore his beloved.

He will turn into a spitting machine, a biter of words that ring with a lovely noise to our masters."

This implies to me that he is something less on the social scale of the BT than a Master (which, BTW GWERN goes Mahai-Masheikh-Dommel-Face Dancer in descending order of dominance).

Please note also that Bijaz is prescient, and no where in any of the books have we heard that Masters have prescience (quote from DM, by Paul):

This dwarf does possess the power of prescience, Paul thought. Bijaz shared the terrifying oracle. Did he share the oracle's fate, as well? How potent was the dwarf's power? Did he have the little prescience of those who dabbled in the Dune Tarot? Or was it something greater? How much had he seen?

IMHO, this (I have some other evidence also if interested) indicates that Bijaz is something else. A specific creation by the BT to serve as the "catalyst dwarf" and probably used for other purposes in his "past lives."Tleilax Master B 13:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the longer previous post! In sum, there are two reasons that you are saying Bijaz is a Master. The first is the humming language, which has been specifically keyed to Bijaz based on the quote provided. The second is the "past lives", but we know serial gholas, such as Duncan (and Piter if you accept the "new canon") have been made. In the absence of him ever being called "Master", and his subservient language ("...our masters..."), don't you think its most logical just to call him a "tleilaxu dwarf" or "dwarf catalyst" and avoid the judgement call of referring to him as a "secret Master"????? Tleilax Master B 13:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.71.3.6 (talk • contribs) 11:18, 2 April 2007

Thanks Tleilax Master B, this is all great stuff. Since Herbert never actually calls Bijaz a Master and this status is thus conjecture, I've changed this designation on the Bene Tleilax, Face Dancer and ghola pages and will make the same change here. I also intend to incorporate some of the quotes listed here by you and Gwern into the article; although we can perhaps agree to certain things about Bijaz, so much is based on interpretation that we cannot make too many conclusions and it seems best to provide the text and lets readers see for themselves.

That said, I will add that Herbert was inconsistent/vague about the Tleilaxu humming and whistling; this was debated somewhat on Talk:Daniel and Marty but the aforementioned footnotes on the ghola and Face Dancer articles illustrate the few references from the texts. It's probably all part of the same "language" but you are right that we can't assume he's a Master just because he hums. The basis of the plan was that everyone would underestimate Bijaz and so allow him to insinuate himself into the company of Paul and Hayt, so they would have to send in "covert" agents, namely a Face Dancer and a "toy." Although I suppose I always saw him as a Master because Herbert had never featured a Master as a character before this and they are later described as dwarflike. But your quotes do seem to show him putting himself at a lower level. TAnthony 21:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The edits look great TAnthony! I think this eliminates any unnecessary speculation on the part of Bijaz and leaves it up to the reader to decide. Thanks for considering my argument! Tleilax Master B 13:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Plot desperately needs a complete rewrite

After so many edits, the plot summary is unreadable and overlong. Too many pronouns are used, and proper names of characters are given without an explanation of who those character(s) are. I have not yet read the book, or I would do so myself.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Atshields0 (talk • contribs) 21:57, December 2, 2008

I've cleaned up the plot summary, but I find the use of pronouns here to not be that much of an issue, and the suggestion that it is "desperate for a rewrite" and "unreadable" to be somewhat overstated. Are we reading the same article? — TAnthony^Talk 10:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Article

Considering this novel is the follow-up to the original Dune, I'm a bit surprised it seems so bare. Should there not be literary reviews/reactions, as well as development? At least something to complete this article, in the context of the greater series?

I know that parts of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune were originally meant for Dune, but were not included and eventually became stand-alone novels that created the trilogy. Something along those lines would be valuable additions to both this article and the following one, at least until Heretics where the article standards have resumed to some level of the original Dune page. 71.243.201.210 (talk) 09:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Stoneburner source

What makes us think that the stoneburner was manufactured by the BT? The only talk of the origin I recall is

'"How did you know that?" Paul asked. "Through your spy system? Oh, yes! We know about your spies and couriers. We know who brought the stone burner here from Tarahell."'

Tarahell is mentioned earlier as the world Otheym fought on; this implies, I think, that it was a House weapon. --Gwern (contribs) 17:07, 11 May 2009 (UTC)