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Talk:Down-low (sexual slang)/Archive 2

< Talk:Down-low (sexual slang)
Latest comment: 8 years ago by 71.224.251.239 in topic Same demographic has the highest incarceration rates in the free world or the highest rates of exposure to institutionalized obviously perverted homosexuality
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Latest comment: 14 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

FYI in case I never get around to doing anything with them. (Some in my files, some I just found on line which means much more findable.) And I know I've seen more sources for the fact that non-African Americans now frequently use phrase, but can't find any references with quick search.

Having read all of the above talk I'm disappointed that the CDC source was somewhat misrepresented, which I corrected. As it happens, this phrase is the only one currently describing the phenomena of closet bisexual males involved in long term relationships with females, which is why it ended up as the phrase used by the CDC and WebMD. It would be helpful if someone invented a phrase more sociological/scientific! Will report if I find one.
At this point the article is more defensive about the use of the term than explanative of its use, which seems rather POV.
However, there are some content issues of interest to women which I believe the article needs to reflect, starting with some of the issues in the CDC article and perhaps others in some of the less sensational articles. Plus the results reported by WebMD and any further studies about actual rate of transmission of AIDS.
So the structure of the article needs to be something more like:

Thoughts? CarolMooreDC (talk) 02:01, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Downlow is a slang term for closeted homosexuality, originating in African American communities in the U.S. While there are many instances of bisexual men keeping their homosex closeted, the term does not refer to heterosexual behavior. It is not (necessarily) about bisexual men. Most of the issues you are attempting to elaborate do not even belong in this article. Perhaps they are more appropriate for "Men who have sex with Men". I also urge you to read the lengthy discussion above in which most of your issues were already discussed at length. EyePhoenix (talk) 00:10, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
The sources say it is relevant to closeted men with female partners. It's called WP:Original research. WP:POV and other things to change content to what you want it to say and ignore the sources. If you have other sources - and you don't mention any - that also define it as being closeted in general, then insert them. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:58, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
MsMoore, with all due respect, saying something is "relevant to" is not the same as being its definition. You will find no definition of "downlow" that makes sex with women a pre-requisite. None of the sources you've listed indicate that sex with women is included in the definition of "Downlow". It is a slang term for the closet, and while it can certainly be said that women have been victimized by men in the closet, the term itself refers to the secret homosexuality of men, not their hetero or bisexuality. Many homosexual men are on the DL without ever having sex with women. Sex with women is a related phenomenon, as some DL men engage in this behavior. But many do not. Trying to include sex with women as part of its definition is WP:Original research. WP:POV . While I certainly support including information about the social impact of closeted behavior, specifically on women, to claim that sex with women is a part of its definition is not accurate. Any sources making such a claim (and I haven't read any) would not be reliable. EyePhoenix (talk) 03:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Evidently you haven't looked at the sources before deleting info that was in that/those sources. CDC says:
The most generic definition of the term down low, or DL, is “to keep something private,” whether that refers to information or activity. The term is often used to describe the behavior of men who have sex with other men as well as women and who do not identify as gay or bisexual.
Therefore writing: "In same-sex sexual contexts, Down-low is a slang term that refers to men who have sex with men (MSM), as well as with women, but who do not identify as gay or bisexual." is a correct definition from that source. Or we could quote even more directly what it says, which I will next time around. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

<backdent>
I think the changes I made, integrating history into lead, resolves the issue by showing the earlier use as just closeted male homosexuality and the more recent high profile use as men who also have sex with women. CarolMooreDC (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Carol, thank you for addressing the concerns. I think I understand where some confusion is coming from. The statement from the CDC "...to describe the behavior of men who have sex with men, as well as with women" is easy to be misinterpreted, because the qualifier "as well as" refers not necessarily to men who do both behaviors, but to men who could do either/or. In other words; SOME men who have sex with men also have sex with women. But my simple point is that the definition of downlow does not require that men have sex with women, only that they be closeted and not identify as "gay". Of course some closeted men have sex with women, since a heterosexual relationship is a great cover. But there are many men who are DL who do NOT engage in sexual activity with women, so it should not be included as part of the definition here, rather it should be referenced in the article as a by-product of the phenomenon. Otherwise it is very misleading.EyePhoenix (talk) 08:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Focus of this article (i.e. Which definition of Down-low to focus on.)

Latest comment: 14 years ago8 comments2 people in discussion

While being on the down-low can refer to being closeted while strictly engaging in MSM sex -- since, in its broadest sense, being on the down-low means keeping something secret -- that is not the focus of this article or of the many reliable sources referenced by this article.

You can also be seeing a dominatrix on the down-low, or sleeping with your wife's sister on the down-low, or identify as a heterosexual woman and have sex with a woman on the down-low, or even be a teenager and have heterosexual sex "on the down-low" with your girlfriend or boyfriend to hide it from your parents -- but again, although it would be using the term correctly, it isn't the "phenomenon" that has been written about recently in media, books, peer-reviewed journals and the CDC. And those other uses don't warrant an encyclopedia entry.

So here I'd like to suggest four possible sentences to use in the introductory section:

  • "Men who have sex with men (MSM) but don't disclose their MSM activity to the women that they are also having sex with.",or
  • "Men who identify as straight, but have sex with men on the side without disclosing this to their female sexual partner(s).", or
  • "More recently, it has been adapted by a subculture of black men to describe men who identify as straight, but who have sex with men on the side, without disclosing this to their female sexual partner(s).", or
  • "As adapted by a subculture of black men, being on the down low describes men who have sex with other men but appear straight, have relationships with women, and don't acknowledge being gay or even bisexual."

For now I'm going to use the third sentence -- but I welcome other thoughts and ideas. Hoping To Help (talk) 11:04, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

In wikipedia we go by what sources say - and we do not just write what we believe and leave the source as a ref as if it supports what we wrote - even if editors are given a choice of what interpretation to use, as above. (See WP:original research.) Your changes do just that. The source clearly says phrase originated in black community and picked up elsewhere, not that it was "adapted by a subculture of black men to describe men who identify as straight etc." The rest of article does not support that contention either. I'm busy this am but will have to revert back to original. Please be more careful. Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 11:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
hmm ... my apologies for not being careful enough ... The wording you mentioned I copied nearly verbatim from one of the sources already listed in the article.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/05/01/MNG4TCID0F1.DTL&type=printable
"As adapted by a subculture of black men, being on the down low describes men who have sex with other men but appear straight, have relationships with women, and don't acknowledge being gay or even bisexual."
But I didn't cite the source in-line and I see how that would be more useful -- so I'll go and do that now.
I'm still not clear exactly what you object to. I'm not sure how the sfgate quote conflicts with your statement that the "source clearly says phrase originated in black community and picked up elsewhere," -- could you clarify for me?
It appears to me that the sfgate and CDC source are in agreement (or at the very least do not conflict). After the term down low was "adopted by a subculture of black men" to specifically mean keeping one's sex with men secret from one's wives and girlfriends ... then it was picked up elsewhere.
Hoping To Help (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


From my reading of the sources, they mainly focus on the intersection of:

  • An age old social/sexual practice: Men who identify as "straight" having sex with men without telling their female partner(s).
  • A relatively recent epidemic of HIV in African American men and even bigger epidemic in African American women ("black women are being diagnosed with HIV at a rate 20 times that of white women.")
  • Research and/or media speculation that AA men are more likely to engage in bisexual behavior and more likely to "not disclose" their MSM activities than white men.
  • Whether or not the "down low phenomenon" is a significant factor in the HIV epidemic among AA or whether it's a convenient scape goat possibly fueled by homophobia and/or racism.

From my reading of the sources, what this article should focus on, is the research and media speculation/reaction around the possible connection between the down-low phenomenon (men who have relationships with women while secretly having sex with men) and the HIV epidemic among African American's.

And I think the present article does largely address those above four points. I'm just trying to get the intro to accurately reflect the sources and the article as presently written.I'd love to see other people's suggested wording. Thanks!

Hoping To Help (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I didn't notice that the quote came from another part of the article. Here's the important point. We have a phrase that obviously is rapidly developing. It's almost a WP:Neologism in fact.
But the point is that the CDC 2008 source which is newer says the phrase is not exclusive to that group; the two older sources (Johnson 2005) and (Mutua 2006) are *not* "more recent" than the CDC factoid. So it's just confusing written that way.
The Journal of Bisexuality study is based on just 146 individuals and it sounds like they define it as being just a black phenomena and only recruited blacks; their methodology not clear. Plus it adds to the confusion since general statements and statements about just black men are mixed together in lead.
A quick search shows other articles about white males on the down low, some even earlier: (http://www.slate.com/id/2147491/ Slate 2006], gaylife, undated, Keith Boykin blog 2006, NY Times 2003. And that's just looking at first few entries.
So while this article certainly should talk about the origins in African American community and the various incidences and problems that may be different in that community, the lead should not confuse people and make them think the phrase is used only/predominantly or more recently there. CarolMooreDC (talk) 20:12, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I can see how the phrase "recently" could be confusing and so I replaced it by "The term was then adapted by ..." -- I hope this helps.
Hoping To Help (talk) 23:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
I can understand your not wanting the lead to to imply that only African American's cheat on their partners. It seems to me that is taken care of with the statement "but such behavior is not exclusive to that group."
As far as the culture in which the term "down low" is used self-referentially -- the sources almost universally support it being described as "predominantly African American." It may help to look explicitly at the sources you suggested:
  • Slate 2006: This is a text book example of the exception proving the rule. The article is even titled "Get Out of My Closet: Can you be white and be on the Down Low?". It's a story about the author meeting *one* white person who claims he's on the down low ... to which the author responds: "That's ridiculous." The article also states that the Down Low "was a uniquely African-American creation." The article goes on to state that: "the Down Low is a VIP party for "masculine" black men who will never admit to being homosexual—because they don't see themselves that way." (my bolding) He did then go on to Craiglist -- and by searching multiple locations across the US, find "dozens of ads from white men claiming to be on the Down Low." This stills leaves this source as positioning the Down Low phenomenon as predominantly African American.
  • gaylife, undated: This article doesn't mention race at all. It is written by an African American. It isn't an example of *any* white men self-identifying as being on the down low. Nor is it even an example of anyone claiming that a significant number of white men consider themselves part of the "down low" culture.
  • Keith Boykin blog 2006: In this blog Mr. Boykin doesn't claim that white men are self-identifying as being on the down low. Nor is he saying that people use the term "down low" to describe the behavior of non-black men. If fact he claims quite the opposite where he states: "He was a married man living with his wife but secretly cheating on her with another man. That was the classic definition of the down low, except for one thing -- McGreevey is white." And again where he says: "When Brokeback Mountain came out last year, theatergoers rushed to see a story of two white men involved in a long-term down low relationship. But nobody ever called it that either." (my bolding)
  • NY Times 2003: This article is 10 pages long, and is all about "Down Low" as a black phenomenon. As he explains, being on the down low is more than just cheating, it is an identity that is at least partly defined by it's rejection of white culture and terms.. Here the author states: "Rejecting a gay culture they perceive as white and effeminate, many black men have settled on a new identity, with its own vocabulary and customs and its own name: Down Low. There have always been men -- black and white -- who have had secret sexual lives with men. But the creation of an organized, underground subculture largely made up of black men who otherwise live straight lives is a phenomenon of the last decade. Many of the men at Flex tonight -- and many of the black men I met these past months in Cleveland, Atlanta, Florida, New York and Boston -- are on the Down Low, or on the DL, as they more often call it. Most date or marry women and engage sexually with men they meet only in anonymous settings like bathhouses and parks or through the Internet. Many of these men are young and from the inner city, where they live in a hypermasculine thug culture. Other DL men form romantic relationships with men and may even be peripheral participants in mainstream gay culture, all unknown to their colleagues and families. Most DL men identify themselves not as gay or bisexual but first and foremost as black. To them, as to many blacks, that equates to being inherently masculine." He also writes: "With no wives or girlfriends around, Flex is a safe place for men on the DL to let down their guards. There aren't many white men here either (I'm one of them), and that's often the norm for DL parties and clubs. Some private DL events won't even let whites in the door. Others will let you in if you look black enough, which is code for looking masculine, tough and straight."
Hoping To Help (talk) 04:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I've updated the intro with many citations and information on "Down Low" as a sexual identity, culture and lifestyle that is predominately practiced by young, urban African American men. As the sources and the wording in the into make clear this use of Down Low is different than a description of sexual behavior.

I've also removed the last sentence from the previous intro as it seemed left over from when this article was a general dictionary like discussion of the different possible meanings of the term down low.

I've saved the sentence here in case there are objections:

It is used as a noun, adjective and adverb all pertaining to keeping information secret.[1] Cassell's Dictionary of Slang even records "d.l.c." as a down-low conversation.[1]

Hoping To Help (talk) 08:40, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference Cassell's Dic was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Black men ARE more likely to be STI conduits

Latest comment: 8 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

This isn't popular to say, but black men *are* more likely to be conduits for sexually transmitted disease. And so we should change this paragraph:

Nearly all these stories connected the down-low to the AIDS epidemic in the African-American community, though research has failed to support that black men are more likely than others to be closeted or sexually transmitted disease conduits.

They're more likely to transmit STI's because they are way more likely to have an STI than non-black men. As you can see from this link from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table6a.htm an African-American is seven times more likely to have HIV than a white man in the US. And the only way to be a conduit for HIV is to *have* HIV. You can't get HIV by having sex with someone that isn't infected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoping To Help (talk • contribs) 10:28, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I dont think this is the place to argue that, unless stories on the topic argue it. However, whether or not those cannot be found, it would be OK to specifically identify the two WP:RS who make that claim . CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


I wasn't suggesting it be added to the article. What I was suggesting (and did go ahead and do) is that the previously existing assertion to the contrary be removed. The sentence previously asserted that black men are not more likely to be STI conduits. This assertion was not supported by the either of the two citations given. I can find zero studies that try to claim that blacks are no more of a STI conduit than others. There IS a recent study that says that identifying as being on the DL does not increase ones likelihood of being a conduit for HIV to women greater than identifying as bisexual. All the studies point out (and are quite alarmed by the fact) that blacks are a hugely disproportionate conduit for HIV. What some are doubting is how much male DL or male bisexuality plays into the transmission of HIV to black women from black men. Instead it is believed that black men who are IV drug users are a much bigger percentage of the problem. Hoping To Help (talk) 21:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

After researching this more I find that there is a large amount of peer reviewed studies that show that African-American men are both more likely to engage in MSM activities and to be on the down-low (not disclose this information to others). Here is a partial list of citations:

Hoping To Help (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Then you should write a short, relevant, NPOV sentence or two in summary and add those refs. CarolMooreDC (talk) 05:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a racist attitude. Black bisexual and gay men are no more likely to be STD/HIV conduits than men of other races are. I know straight white people who are HIV+ or who have STDs, and as a bisexual white man I have encountered A LOT of white men who are what you'd call closeted or on the DL about their sexuality, and many who are HIV+ or who have STDs which they got from not having safer sex or using condoms.96.227.207.86 (talk) 02:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Wrong. All the studies prove otherwise. Wikipedia articles are based on facts, even if is not politically correct to state those facts. Your denial of a truth that is so obviously supported by objective evidence makes me think you have an agenda that is contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia.Arlesd (talk) 19:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Same demographic has the highest incarceration rates in the free world or the highest rates of exposure to institutionalized obviously perverted homosexuality

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

By reading the article my take away is the demographic has abnormal rates of unclaimed bisexuality-when the reality is the demographic has abnormal rates of exposure to perverse/forced/necessity whatever, homosexuality via prison. Of course can't stick to the written in stone agenda and ignore experience as a factor in sexual preference given this information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.251.239 (talk • contribs) — Preceding undated comment added 20:17, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

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