Talk:Deutsche Reichsbahn/Archives/2014

Reich=Empire?

It needs to be stated that the translation of "Reich" as "empire/imperial" fails to recognize the multifaceted meanings of the German term and is therefore misleading and slated. Neither the Weimar Republic nor the GDR ever considered themselves as "empires". See also:

"The use of the English word empire and its adjective imperial may be confusing because the Weimar Republic was a republic; empire is an imprecise translation of the German word Reich (which does not have a specific monarchic connotation) and is increasingly translated as commonwealth or realm." (from article on Weimar Republic). Ekem 13:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Ekem, "commonwealth" and "realm" are themselves imprecise; empire is still the closest translation in English to Reich. At the time, "German Empire" was indeed the standard translation (in other contexts, the word does have a broader meaning). The reasons for the Weimar Republic continuing to use the name Deutsches Reich (anger at loss of empire, appeasement of nationalists, less than total commitment to democracy, etc.), and the reasons that the East German national railway continued to use the name Deutsche Reichsbahn (loss of access to West Berlin if they changed it) have been discussed on their respective pages, and even more so in the German Wikipedia. I have edited this passage in the Weimar Republic article. ProhibitOnions 21:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

"Reich" can be translated in at least ten different ways: State, empire, nation, land, region, country, realm, commonwealth, domain, and res publica. [1] There is no such thing as a universally best translation and often enough “empire” will not do. The German word, for better or worse, is multifaceted. My point is simple: the English translation has to consider the context. The reasons why the Weimar Republic or the GDR railways used the term is not under dispute, - the fact that the German term carries different meanings makes it possible to be used under various circumstances. Ekem 16:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but the point is, the Weimar Republic wasn't reinterpreting the word as something cuddlier (like "Realm") and nor were the East Germans. There is no real change in context. Read any old West German travel guide to the GDR, it will inevitably say something about der üble Name der DDR-Eisenbahn or the like; no-one was reading this as a word that had neutral connotations, least of all the communists themselves, who claimed to be anti-imperialist; on the rare occasions the name Reichsbahn was addresed, it was lamely defended as a Traditionsname, hardly a sign that a neutral meaning of Reich was intended. Today, Reich is one of the words considered historisch belastet. ProhibitOnions 20:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

We are not moving ahead here. How about adding to the English translation the remark "literally" ( i.e. Reichsbahn, literally "Imperial Railway"), that gives the translation some qualification, until somebody has a reference concerning a reliable document such as a GDR source where an official translation is shown? Ekem 00:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Now, now, Ekem. "We are not moving ahead" indeed. If you want to add "literally" I have no objection; I don't think there was ever an "official" translation of Deutsche Reichsbahn, as the GDR always used the German term in English, at most with a description. FWIW, the Deutsche Bundesbahn often used "GermanRail" in English, but that's hardly a literal or official translation. Here in Germany, no-one interprets "Deutsche Reichsbahn" as having a meaning other than as Imperial in the sense of the German Reich. ProhibitOnions 11:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

See the talk page for Deutsche_Reichsbahn_of_the_GDR for a more recent discussion of the translation of "Reich" as "Realm," not as "Empire", etc.Cvieg 17:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

We've been through this already. As uncomfortable as some users evidently are with the term "Imperial", that's what was meant by it. The German Empire was called that in English, not "Realm". The reasons why this unpleasant-sounding term was later used in East Germany is explained in the article, and even more so in the German de:Deutsche Reichsbahn (DDR).ProhibitOnions ^(T) 10:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the translation of the article title to "German Reich Railway Company" and added a link referring the reader to the article Reich for a detailed discussion of the English meaning of that word. See the talk page for Deutsche_Reichsbahn_of_the_GDR for additional discussion on this subject. Cvieg 23:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

To state it more precisely: "Empire" means "Kaiserreich", "imperial" means "kaiserlich"! The german word "Reich" is imho better translated to the english "Realm"! Cheers Axpde (talk) 15:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Move Deutsche Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft to Deutsche Reichsbahn

I would like to propose retitling this article to just "Deutsche Reichsbahn". The logic is that the "Deutsche Reichsbahn" was the overarching name for the German national railways from its inception in 1920 through to 1949, when it was effectively split into the "Deutsche Bundesbahn" and a successor administration with the same name in East Germany. The "Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft" was simply the organisational construct through which the Deutsche Reichsbahn was run from 1924 to 1937. Once taken over and repainted, the vehicles carried the name "Deutsche Reichsbahn" or "DR" throughout. So it is quite normal to refer to these railways simply as the "Deutsche Reichsbahn" for the entire period to 1949 without any confusion as it was to all intents and purposes the same administration under the same government. It would also simplify the vast majority of the links which currently have to say [[Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft|Deutsche Reichsbahn]]. Finally it also conforms to German Wikipedia practice. In a sense the DRG was just one part of the DR's history, so it should be a section in the article, but not, IMHO, the title. Bermicourt (talk) 22:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I fully aggree with you, the DRG was a Company within the years 1924 through 1937. In the early 1920es the "Deutsche Reichseisenbahnen" was a collection of state railway authorities, and after 1937 the "Deutsche Reichsbahn" was a (again) a state authority. Some people denote the whole time period 1920 til 1949 as "Deutsche Reichsbahn", incl. the "Deutsche Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft", but not the other way round!

I moved the page and fixed the wrong spelled [[Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft]]-links, but someone disaggreed to delete the redirect, although it's incorrect. Cheers Axpde (talk) 15:26, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree strongly with your move: It is not at all clear that the earlier company has a stronger claim to the name than the East German one. "Deutsche Reichsbahn" should remain as a dab page. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 01:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

I think there are factors in favour of the pre-war Deutsche Reichsbahn having precedence: they were the original 'founder' company, they were by far larger and more influential organisation e.g. with a geographical reach around four times larger; also this is the way German Wikipedia has gone; admittedly not a decisive point, but a strong indicator that it makes sense.

However I think we can resolve this in another way by adding a section here on the post-war DR with a 'main article' tag. Then this article would cover the whole DR period and the title is entirely appropriate. When I have a moment I will create the new section. Bermicourt (talk) 08:21, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me, as long as the intro indicates this too. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 15:08, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, new sections completed. Happy for other, more expert, eyes to check the detail and add references, etc. Thanks for the team effort, Wikipedians! Bermicourt (talk) 13:54, 19 November 2008 (UTC)