Talk:Detroit Diesel/Archive 1

Disputed

Bias

The second paragraph of the introduction reads like an advertisement, starting with the third sentence ("Designed for in-town...") — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.195.158.97 (talk) 14:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Series 71 Introduction

Although the Detroit Diesel website says that the series 71 was introduced in 1957, the 1986 printing of the inline 71 series service manual clearly documents a block casting change that occured in the 1940s. This needs to be looked into further. --24.107.227.12 17:13, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

This block casting change was from the earlier "Hi deck" to the "Low deck". We had a 6-71 made in 1938 and the serial # was something like 275. The 71 series was first. Later came the 110 series, which I have only seen in Allis Chalmers crawlers. Later came the 149 series. The 53 series was definitely introduced in 1958 in 2,3, 4, 6V, and the totally insane 8V-53.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.92.117 (talk) 02:33, 14 July 2006

http://www.westerbeke.com/aboutus/company_history.cfm says Westerbeke was marinizing 6-71 engines as early as 1938. --24.107.227.12 17:13, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I have emailed the folks over at DD repeatedly and......nothing. They don't seem to respond to my emails. Maybe you can get through? I have been trying since about May.

Is the "Series 71" the same thing as the "6-71"?

a 6-71 is a 71 Series engine. The 6 (or 4, or 3) designates how many cylinders the engine has. "V" means the engine is a V type, and was available as an 8,12,16, and 24 cylinder models. the 3-71, 4-71 and 6-71 were all inline models.Nathraq (talk) 20:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, maybe they called it something else, but to simplify their accomplishments, they just put 6-71. Maybe it should be "the predecessor" to the Series 71?

WikiDon 17:26, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The 6-71, along with the 3-71, 4-71, xV71, and so forth are all 71 series engines. The V qualification, of course, means a V-form engine. I do not have a direct line to DDC, but I do have access to more books on the subject. --24.107.227.12 02:48, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The 71 in Series 71 stands for the cubic inch displacement per cylinder. A 3-71 is 3*71=213 cubic inches, and so forth. --24.107.227.12 23:52, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I am feeling like removing the note since the information came directly from DD. I am starting to feel that YOU must contact them to prove otherwise. WikiDon 00:35, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

PS: I just emailed DDC again, and ask them for help. WD

The Detroit Diesel service manual I have is also information that "came directly from DD." I can scan the relevant pages of the manual if you desire. --24.107.227.12 00:22, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I have a 1946 copy of NAVPERS 10208-A, Motor Machinist's Mate 3c & 2c (The USN Rate training book for engine mechanics) that refers to the "GM series 71" by name, and drawing. It also mentions the Gray Marine adaptation of the 6-71 that was used as one of the two posible engines in the thousands of LCVPs that were built. I can reference the serial number of a 4-71 mounted in a ex-Navy WWII tugboat against a Detroit Diesel manual to see when it was made (yes, there manuals go back that far). I can point you to ship types (LCI for example) that used 6-71s as there sole source of propulsion. In short there is no question that the series 71 existed well prior to 1957, and i'd be happy to provide whatever proof is nessicary. --63.200.55.222 10:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The 6-71 was being produced during World War II and was the main engine in many landing craft during the war. There are many WWII era posters and advertisements still in existence showing the 6-71.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.175.52.175 (talk) 18:01, 19 November 2005

The -71 series Detroit Diesel engine was introduced in 1938, and manufactured until 1995. It included 1,2,3,4,6 and multiples of 6 cylinder engines. The one cylinder was only produced during WWII as a marine engine. The 2-71 was used for years to generate electricity for railroad refrigerator cars, many of these gen-sets are still available although production of the 2-71 ceased in 1986.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.196.188.164 (talk) 00:07, 5 April 2006

I can verify the above as reasonably accurate and to add to this General Motors Diesel also produced a 51 Series, these were fully ported engines with no valves whatsoever. If memory serves me correctly they were used in snub nosed tractors and coupled to piggy backed Hydra Matic transmisions. A few were marinized but I never knew who did this. Sorry I can not produce hard evidence of this as all my service and shop manuals were stolen several years ago.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Genet4601 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 5 May 2006

One thing I can tell you is that the initial product lineup of Detroit Diesel in 1938 was indeed the Series 71, but in exclusively inline block configurations ranging from two to six cylinders (the single cylinder 1-71 was a WWII exclusive unit). The 4-71 and the more common 6-71 were, in its time, popular diesel engines for line-haul trucks and city buses, although the 3-71 did power some large farming tractors. The Series V-71, with cylinder configurations ranging from six to 24, was definitely introduced in 1957 along with the Series 53. WikiPro81 04:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Note that until the introduction of V-series engines, the term "71-series" always meant an inline engine. It is only after V-configuration engines were introduced that terms were introduced to distinguish between them. From our perspective of today, looking at older materials (before the V-series was introduced) is confusing as it does not say "inline" or "V", because at time of printing there was no "V". To clarify, a "71-series" engine means 71 cubic inches per cylinder and today means either inline or V-configuration; before the introduction of V-configuration it always meant an inline engine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.221.201.4 (talk) 20:18, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

If it helps - keep in mind that GM Diesel became known as Detroit Diesel around 1965, according to Alfred Sloan in My Years With General Motors. I'll put that into this article eventually with the source, but I'm working on the GM engines page right now and that's taking enough of my time. Between DD and Allison (which Rolls-Royce seems to have written out of existence), it's hard to trace this stuff. Duncan1800 (talk) 10:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Series 51

There was in fact a series 51 that had no valves. It worked more like a 2 cycle gas engine using scavenger ports for both intake and exhaust. I do not know if it had a supercharger, but I will see if I can find anything out. There were 2 and 4 cylinder strait block versions. It was primarily an industrial engine, used for pumps, generators, compressors and the like. They also found their way into marine applications. A website called marineEngine.com has an operators manual for the 51 series so thats a place to start. Thaddeusw 03:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Did the Series 51 come out ina 6 cylinder? I have found a 6151-E and know nothing about it. Neville Australia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.192.186 (talk) 12:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Categories

This page covers both companies, so should have categories as Diesel engines, Genset engines and Submarine Engines (WWII) etc as well as auto engines! I know a lot of New Zealand telephone exchanges had Detroit Diesel 71 engines for standby sets! Hugo999 09:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

V8s

How come there are no v8 engines for class 8 trucks in North America?Isalmerbati 05:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

There were 8V92 Detroits and 8V92 "Silver" Detroits that were well-renowned motors for Class 8 trucks. I believe that currently the educated thought is that inline 6-cylinder engines can fit into a tighter space profile with accessories such as air compressors, allowing truck hoods to be sized smaller. Framerotblues (talk) 07:00, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason might be that the inline 6-cylinder engines are -- obviously -- of a much simpler configuration since there is only one bank of cylinders verses two banks of a "V" design. Also, there are significantly fewer high-precision parts in a 6-cylinder engine verses an 8-cylinder engine (e.g. pistons, connecting rods, valves, injectors). Routing of intake air and exhaust gas is simpler in an inline engine verses a "V" type engine. Thus, an inline 6-cylinder is easier and less expensive to design, manufacture, and maintain than a V-type 8-cylinder. Additionally, I believe the inline 6 design is more efficient than the V8 because there is less heat loss. Four-cycle V8 diesel truck engines were manufactured for class 8 trucks by both Caterpillar (e.g. the 3408) and Cummins (e.g. the 903) up until the early to mid 70's. Detroit Diesel stopped making 2-cycle engines for motor vehicles because those engines were incapable of meeting the more stringent exhaust gas emission requirements.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.50.34 (talk) 04:53, 11 August 2009

Here is a diagram of a 2 stroke inline Detroit Diesel engine of operation. (apparently unable to attach diagram) Intake stroke is unconventional that of a gasoline powered 2 stroke engine. The Detroit utilizes forced induction via a Roots blower to bring in the fresh intake air to the cylinder due to the fact that the engine has a a conventional closed crankcase, Intake air is introduced by means of 'ports' about halfway down the cylinder liner wall. The engine uses a camshaft to operate exhaust valves (early engines used 2 valves per cylinder and later used 4 valves per cylinder for maximum scavenging of the exhaust gases. The oil control rings are mounted at the bottom of the piston as to stay below the intake ports, this is to keep the oil in the crank case. Turbos were adapted in conjunction with the blower for higher 'air box' intake pressures along with higher output fuel injectors for higher horse power. The positive displacement 'Roots' type blower is necessary for start up and lower engine speeds, the turbo works under higher rpms and loads to 'boost' air intake charge into the blower. Being that these engines are 'forced inducted' and forced exhaust stroke there is no need for an expansion chamber. The 12V-71 utilized 2 6V-71 blowers as part of Detroit Diesel's design. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.248.251 (talk) 18:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

4-stroke vs 2-stroke

So are these 2 stroke or 4 stroke engines? How is oil managed on such 2-strokes. In Google image search I only get to see the images of these very tall pistons with the ugly large skirt. Is this the reason that modern diesels are 4 stroke? Ships do not use regular Diesel-fuel, so they have lower RPM and must compensate for this with 2 stroke technique. On the Detroit Diesel web site the engines have peak torque at 1800 RPM, which is the same as in cars, but it drops into the cellar already at 2000 RPM, why that? Diesels in cars drops slowly to zero torque at 5000 RPM. It is the same fuel, isn't it? Do the trucks have injectors for 2000 RPM and cars have much too large injectors? On their website they advertise a compound-turbine. Why is this interesting technology not mentioned here? If they are 2 stroke engines, they have turbos, right? There this V16 Bonneville Detroit Diesel Frightliner, which has very large turbos, and reaches 3000 RPM only using larger injectors and turbos. On this pissed Pete Peterbilt truck hot rod one can see the exhaust header. Why is there no expansion chamber? Would it be to large for such a slow reving engine? Why does this hot rod use two superchargers? I would guess one could get one large enough from Detroit Diesel. How is the ignition sequence on a V16? Does a V16 have to do anything with a W16? How is the exhaust routed in 4-valve 2-stroke engines? -- Arnero (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

The series 53, 71, 92, 110, and 149 were all 2 stroke diesels. I believe they had oil rings on the pistons, as they did have a crankcase. Series 40, 50, 60, and all modern Detroits are 4 stroke. Emissions on 2 strokes are harder to control than a 4 stroke diesel, even with electronic controls and emissions systems. Today's diesels make more power at lower RPM's. Diesel often don't rev over 4,000-5,000 rpm. There is no need to anyway. It's all done with gearing in the axles or transmissions, or it depends on the equipment the engine is operating. TBird100636 (talk) 05:27, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Advertising

This whole article sounds like it was written by the advertising department of Detroit Diesel.

I agree. It seems like most of the lead and the uncited history could simply be chainsawed away. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:28, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks like much of it came from here: [1]Sammy D III (talk) 18:01, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Good catch. It's not quite straight copyvio, but I've stripped that - WP not a product catalogue. Pinkbeast (talk) 06:05, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Timeline as prose?

This section has 19 entries starting with a bullet and a time. These are all up and down on the left side so they can be easily identified. Following the time colon almost all entries are paragraphs in their own right. Other than maybe combining two 2010s, what can be done to make this section easier to understand?

A lot of editors have been plugging away at this section with this format for a long time. Whoever put this flag on this one section may want to take it down.Sammy D III (talk) 18:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. The tag says, "You can help by converting this section to prose, if appropriate." I converted the section that was appropriate and removed the tag from the other 2 sections. It would not be appropriate for the timeline and product list. If the tagger disagrees, they themselves can do the work of trying to convert (to prose that others agree is superior to the list), and thus prove the merit of converting. Otherwise it's just drive-by tag bloat, which WP has too much of anyway. — ¾-10 20:10, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The DD site stuff is just numbers, no sales intended. The formatting looked good to me. Should "Divisions", "Joint Ventures", and "Partners" somehow relate to each other? Not by me. Sammy D III (talk) 02:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)