Talk:Department of Alto Adige

Title change

I changed the title of this article from Haut-Adige to Alto Adige (Napoleonic), since the district and department at issue were part of Italian-using administrations (despite being client states of France). From the evidence I've seen, all of the names - "Alto Adige", "Haut-Adige", "Ober Etsch", and "Upper Adige" can be found in English-language sources. I decided to go with Alto Adige since it was relatively common and the local name. I'm prepared to hear evidence that the title should change (although if anything it should move to "Upper Adige" - again, based on the sources I've seen). Dohn joe (talk) 22:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You might want to wait until the end of the discussion outcome before making any changes to the title of the article, to give other users a chance as well to discuss and participate. Gryffindor (talk) 12:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough - so, what's your evidence/reasoning showing that the name should remain at "Haut-Adige"? Dohn joe (talk) 20:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Based on the name on the map, and that the departments were normally named in French, while Italian names existed (see here [1]). I also don't think that the intro can have the English translation "Upper Adige". It is one translation, however "Haut" in this case can also translate as "High". Is there an official or academic source that states that the English name of this place was "Upper Adige" or is this just a loose translation? Gryffindor (talk) 21:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, but that's a French map - obviously the Italians (or the English, for that matter) wouldn't claim that Venice is on the "Mer Adriatique", for example. Speaking of English usage, here's a near-contemporary source that calls the department "Upper Adige". So you can see why, since the Italians called it "Alto Adige", and the English called it "Upper Adige", and since it was never part of France, I would argue that the one makes sense as the local/official name, and the other makes sense as the English name. Dohn joe (talk) 22:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

That's good to have an English source that is near contemporary. One more would be good to have, also for the German name. Gryffindor (talk) 08:54, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Will continue to look for more sources. As to the article's title, do you now agree that "Upper Adige" and "Alto Adige" are both preferable to "Haut-Adige"? This case is different from the departments on Italian soil that were officially part of the French Empire - this department never was, so it was never officially named in French. Does that make sense? And if so, which name would you argue for? Dohn joe (talk) 00:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I think using the Italian term "Alto Adige" would be most preferable in that case, not "Upper Adige", since that could be also a purely geographic description. I would go for "Alto Adige (department)" as the article name, according to the naming scheme of other Napoleonic departments. Gryffindor (talk) 02:27, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

In that case, I'd suggest "Department of Alto Adige", to go along with what's already found here. Dohn joe (talk) 20:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

That's fine too. Gryffindor (talk) 01:15, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

which period are we referring?

I don't think, the german name "Ober-Etsch" was ever used during napoleonic times - I would rather suggest, this german name was introduced later as a replacement for "Südtirol", as the use of anything relating to "tirol" was not allowed during fascism. So I would not put this german translation at the beginning.
BTW: "Benaco" is the name of the "Garda-Lake". There's zero intersection between the former department of Benaco and todays province of Bolzano.
In the "history section", it is not clear, that the "Bishopric of Brixen", while part of the County of Tyrol, was not part of the napoleonic Haut Adige.--Sajoch (talk) 09:22, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

If you look further down the article, you'll see a German reference from 1813 that uses "Ober-Etsch" for the department. And you're right - we should be clearer about 1) where the district was and 2) where the department was, in relation to today's province.

How about the title? Since the district and department were never under direct French control, and they used Italian for naming, wouldn't "Alto Adige (Napoleonic)" be a better title? Or alternatively, since we have a contemporary English reference using "Upper Adige", wouldn't that also be better than "Haut-Adige"? Dohn joe (talk) 18:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

If you are referring here to the Napoleonic Regno d'Italia, the name should be Alto Adige, since the language used in that state was Italian. The map shown in the article is misleading, since it is a french one and, as you know, the French loved (and still love) to translate in French each name (geographic, personal, etc.). Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 09:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone disagree? Dohn joe (talk) 20:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm fine with renaming this page to "Alto Adige (Napoleonic)".--Sajoch (talk) 09:23, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think it would help readers to develop an understanding of the topic if the lead mentions that

• the name "Haut-Adige" had no historical antecedent nor the region it denoted
• what regions Haut-Adige exactly comprised (and what not, namely northern South Tyrol)

Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. Gryffindor (talk) 03:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)