Talk:Cult of Skaro/Archive 1

Archive 1

Names

I removed the following which was seated about the lead section and am placing it here for consideration;--Alf ^melmac 09:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Rose: Doctor, they have names, imean, Daleks don't have names do they? But one of them said they-

DT: I am Dalek Thay.

DS: Dalek Sec.

DJ: Dalek Jast.

DC: Dalek Caan.

Doctor: So that's it! At last! The cult of Skaro! I thought you where just a legend!

Rose: Who are they?

Doctor: A secret order. Above and Beyond the Emperor Himself. Their job was to imagine, to think as the enemy thinks. All to find new ways of killing.

Might violate copyright (although fair use might apply as it's fairly short). Anyway, the lead is the wrong place for it, if it even belongs. Totnesmartin 15:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding nerdy (hmmm...) I remember a Dalek called Sek or Sekk from the original comic. And I bet RTD does. Sfgreenwood 15:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The Dalek from the original TV21 comic stip appeared in the segment which has become known as 'Duel of the Daleks', and was called Zeg. Donlock (talk) 21:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Spoiler tags

I put spoiler tags at the top and bottom of the article, as it contains material which hasn't been broadcast in some countries - well most countries probably... Totnesmartin 15:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

A play on words?

Rearranging these names seems to suggest an origin. Perhaps a temporal joke by the writers?

"Caan Thay Jast (wait a) Sec?"

reads rather well as an English sentence about never quite catching the Daleks in time. 212.69.225.18 15:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Dalek Caan

I am pretty sure dalek caan's last appearance is not Evolution of the Daleks because the doctor says he will see him again some day. Also is it classed as continuity that in Doomsday Dalek thay appears to be second in command but in Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks (DIM/EOTD) it is Dalek Caan 82.39.162.160 18:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

If the Daleks in Doomsday are not the same ones as those in DIM/EOTD (came from a different dimension), then this is not necessarily a continuity error. See below... 24.137.81.76 15:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

It's Caan's last appearance in the sense it was the last time he/she/it was seen on screen. The fact Caan survived and may well appear again, doesn't mean EOTD is the last appearance for now Biscit 11:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

On another matter, the page says Caan's the most prominent dalek of the new series. To my information, there were no named daleks in the classic series, so wouldn't this make Caan the most prominent dalek ever? Would this deserve a small edit? 84.250.246.11 (talk) 09:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Continuity from Doomsday

The article currently states:

The Doctor caused the Daleks released from the Genesis Ark to be sucked back into the Void, but Sec and the rest of the Cult of Skaro managed to initiate an emergency temporal shift to 1930s New York City.

I am not aware of any justification to support the hypothesis that the four Daleks in Daleks in Manhattan/Evolution of the Daleks are the same Daleks as those in Doomsday. The Cult of Skaro Daleks in Doomsday came from a different dimension in the void ship. Also, we see only one Dalek engage an emergency temporal shift at the end of Doomsday. It is much simpler to assume that the four Daleks in 1930's NYC are native to our own dimension, and were embarking on their own attempt to restart the Dalek empire. In each "personalized" description of the four Daleks it is again stated, without any evidence that I am aware of, that they escaped the void at the end of Doomsday and materialized in 1930's NYC. I don't think this makes any sense. If no one can supply any supporting evidence or makes a good argument why this claim should remain, I will remove it, perhaps adding a note that it is not certain if the Daleks in the aforementioned episodes are actually the same. 24.137.81.76 15:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Doctor: How did you survive then?

Dalek Sec: Emergency temporal shift.

From Evolution of the Daleks. Will ^{(is it can be time for messages now plz?)} 18:51, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

He goes on to deduce that the four remaining daleks are much-depleted in resources because of the power drain of the shift. No, there's no reason to believe that there is any discontinuity here. --Tony Sidaway 19:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this reference. However I think it's very weak evidence. I still don't see any reason to believe that there is continuity.

Dalek Sec: The Cult of Skaro escaped your slaughter.

The slaughter of all Daleks in this universe by the Time Lords (plural 'your')? Or the slaughter of the "Pete's universe" Daleks by the Doctor (singular 'your')? The depleted power resources don't mean anything, as the escape method would have been the same either way, and there is no way of knowing how long the Daleks have been in NYC.

However I admit that the coincidence of an emergency temporal shift in both stories suggests that the writers may have intended it to be the same Daleks, despite the lack of direct evidence onscreen, and the fact that a link is unnecessary and reduces the ability to bring back more Daleks in future. So I will back off. I nevertheless think that the many direct statements on Wikipedia that these are the same Daleks are overly confident given the dearth of real evidence. The writer's limited imaginations aside, it is a much simpler explanation that the NYC Daleks are from our Universe.

Perhaps if it was said that the Cult of Skaro Daleks "apparently managed to initiate an emergency temporal shift" this would be more satisfactory. Additionally I must question this statement:

The Cult believed they are the last four Daleks in existence.

If we accept that these Daleks come from "Pete's universe", then we know almost their entire history in our universe. How can they be so sure, without having travelled away from Earth, that there are no other Daleks? And in fact, do Daleks believe (in) anything? Perhaps this should read "The Cult assume they are the last four Daleks in existence". Thanks for reading. 24.137.81.76 23:39, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I would point out that there may have been otehr daleks who perforemed emergency temporal shifts, orescaped in otehr ways. if this is indded the case, I hope that some of the Daleks manage to set upa stable empire again, since coming up with new ways that some daleks survived is likely to become rather tedious quite quickly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 150.101.102.188 (talk) 16:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Additionally, the Daleks are from our universe - They know of the Doctor, the Emperor, and the Time War, which, as far as we know, took place only in our universe. Hell, Occam's Razor even supports the Cult-are-the-last-four-Daleks-in-existence. Will ^{(is it can be time for messages now plz?)} 18:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

We have no evidence the Time War only happened in our Universe. With the writers apparently suffering from the [butterfly effect syndrome] (see the last paragraph at this link) we have to assume "Pete's universe" is substantially the same as ours. In any case how can the Daleks be from our universe? The Cyberman in Army of Ghosts says:

"The sphere broke down the barriers between worlds. We only followed. It's origin is unknown"

Of the sphere, the Doctor says that they (at the time, presumed Cybermen)

"aimed it at this dimension like a cannonball"

Thus the Daleks travelling in that sphere must have come from the same dimension as the Cybermen (Pete's world).

I don't see how Occam's razor supports that these are the last four Daleks. The fewest assumptions we can make is one: "Daleks exist(ed)". We have only the Doctor's statements that all the Daleks were wiped out, and he has been wrong twice (or three times if you count the Cult of Skaro Daleks as though they are from our Universe). It seems far more likely that the occasional Dalek escaped (as seen in the 1st season episode "Dalek"). To me, Occam's razor supports the idea that the Daleks in DiM/EotD are from our Universe (no need to make extra assumptions about their origin, involving complicated temporal (not spatial!) shifts from Canary Wharf). 24.137.81.76 03:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the four daleks of the Cult of Skaro are from this universe, not Pete's World. The captured the void ship from the Time Lords during the Time War and used it to escape destruction, alongside the Genesis Ark, which turns out to be a TARDIS-like prison containing many daleks. Presumably there's some back story about the Time Lords then sealing off the void (Doctor Who talks of this in Rise of the Cybermen, I believe). But the Time Lords didn't know everything and somehow the Cybermen found the void ship and how to use it "like a cannon ball" to break through to the world of Doctor Who.

At the battle of Torchwood tower, the daleks from the ship are all sucked into the void, not because they're from Pete's World but because they have spent time in the void and they're just as susceptible to the Doctor's gigantic vacuum cleaner (or whatever it is he turns on them) as the Pete's World Cybermen. The four daleks of the cult escape by an emergency temporal shift, otherwise they too would have been sucked into the void. --Tony Sidaway 04:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Tony, can't agree with you there. No evidence that the voidship was a Time Lord creation; the Doctor says "It's impossible [...] just a theory". The Genesis Ark was Time Lord technology, not the void ship. The Time Lords didn't "seal off the void", what you're thinking about from RotC is when the Doctor says that travel between dimensions was easier when Time Lords were around. Time Lords were keeping pathways between dimenions open. If the Daleks in the void ship came from our dimension, they would have had to go into the void "like a cannonball", turn around midway (in the void, where navigation is impossible) and come back, and yet somehow their entrance into the void poked a hole not just in our universe, but in "Pete's universe" as well (which the Cybermen "followed" to get into our universe). I just don't buy it. I'll willing to accept the writers may have intended all four Cult of Skaro Daleks to make an emergency temporal shift to New York in the '30s (despite not showing it explicitly on screen), but there is absolutely no evidence to support the complicated idea that they came from our universe, almost went to "Pete's universe" through the void , and then came back again. No, if the NYC Daleks are the same ones as from Doomsday, then I'm willing to bet that "our universe" Cult of Skaro Daleks are still out there somewhere, plotting the rise of a new Dalek empire. 24.137.81.76 18:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Problem: The Cult of Skaro are from the Doctor's universe. They retreated into the Void during the Time War and then aimed the void ship back at the dimension.

Not that this is the place to be continuing this discussion but I'm confused as to what the 'confusion' is. The Cult of Skaro built the Void Ship, took the Ark, and fled into the void. Inside the void, the ship acted like a giant ping pong ball(I think in one of the episodes, the Doctor made this comment), breaking down the barriers between dimensions and coating all the Daleks with Void Stuff before they finally came crashing out of the Void back into our(their original) universe. Why one would think the Cult in Manhattan and Evolution would be any different than the Doomsday one's is beyond me. I mean Pete had no idea what a Dalek was for goodness sakes. Surely Torchwood would've known about them if they had existed.--Anguirus111 02:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The Cult of Skaro did not come from Pete's World, the came from our universe. When the Void Ship crashed back into our universe it caused cracks to appear, spreading across the universe. In Rise of the Cybermen, the TARDIS fell through one of these cracks, through the Void and crashed into Pete's World. Once they had left Pete's World, the Cybermen spent 3 years coming through the Void and into our world. All the Void Ship and the Daleks did was cause the cracks when the came home to our universe, it was the TARDIS that caused the hole into Pete's World. 86.157.44.64 14:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

i think that doomsday cult and dim/eod cult are the same, they seem to be dont they? (retorical question) and they are definetly from our universe: they know about the time war AND the emporer AND the doctor (there probably is know doctor in petes world because if there was a doctor then the cybermen wouldnt have taken over). heres what happened: -time war starts so the cult take the ark and set off in the void ship -the void ship bounces around randomly in the void(like a ping pong ball) saturating the daleks with void stuff in the process -the ship "breaks down the barriors" creating cracks (remember the glass from aog/dd) which the tardis falls through - the sphere come out in our (the cults origanal) universe -the cybermen follow it through 81.108.233.59 11:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

actually with the aiming at this dimension thing perhaps the cybermen did aim it:the void ship may have come out in petes world and the cybermen found out how to (partly) use it and aimed it at this dimension so they could get through81.108.233.59 (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

EITHER WAY the intended point of the episode was obviously to indicate that they are the same. Hence, at the end of Doomsday you saw Dalek Sec saying "Emergency Temporal Shift!" and then disappearing. RTD then said Sec "wasn't the only one.

And to be perfectly honest the point that it's not explicitly stated from our universe is ludicrous. For example, the Master that returned was never "explicitly stated" that he's from this Universe, but that was the obvious intention, wasn't it? Sorry to bring this up... what, 6 months later? I'm just making a point that the entire theory that they're from another universe is stupid because their portrayal was supposed to be that they were from THIS universe. Also when has their been the theory the Time War was across universes? If you claim there was, then... please show me which episode, because I am lost and do not remember that. LuGiADude (talk) 09:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Sec man

do we have any humam dalek pics Dark spikey 14:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Image:Humandalek.jpg --Tony Sidaway 16:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

How about this one: Image:Human_dalek.jpg 24.137.81.76 19:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the first one but im not part of the wiki-project or even edited a dr who page so its not realy my business ♥Eternal Pink-Ready to fight for love and grace♥ 19:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

dalek sec

any reason why dalek sec redirects here and the dalek sec section of this article redirects there? just curious... seemed sort of random--Shadowdrak 10:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

sorry to who ever changed it. obvious now.--Shadowdrak 10:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

On the Radio

I must be miss remembering I thought The Cult of Skaro was used in one of the Radio programs. I thought it was with the 2nd Doctor. 192.88.212.68 00:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you're thinking of the soundtrack for The Evil of the Daleks, where the Doctor implants three Daleks with the 'Human Factor' and gives them names. Different thing, but since there's an Emperor in that story, it could be possible (although absolutely original research for the article) that the humanized Daleks gave the Emperor the idea for the Cult of Skaro.

2 things i think

i beleive that Dalek sec might be a play on dalecsic [i forgot how to spell it], if so shouldnt it go under a possible triva section. Also, could it be [very very unlikey] that Dalek Caan is the same Dalek that fell to Earth in 2012. i mean he could have teleported in the sky and fallen near Van Stantens base and did not recognise the Doctor because he was in a different recincarnation and the Doctor had not meet him yet and he has the exact same apperance.62.31.120.177 16:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

the dalek in 2012 said he wa bread to take oders and he was a solider but Dalek Caan isnt a Solider and he by defult is the leader of the cult ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 11:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, the voice and the nametag are a sort of problem too.

Evolution Caan is awaire that the Daleks are all wiped out, but the Dalek Dalek isn't.--OZOO (vote saxon) 10:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

perhaps his memory banks or himself (the mutant) were damaged(remember he was burning in the crator for about 3 days and he has been continualy tortured by van statten which could damage his memory(remember the dalek had already bean damaged alot by staten before the doctor came in)) which could make him forget the daleks were wiped and make him just go back to taking orders (acording to battle in time cards he was once a normal dalek) and maybe that could change his voice by damaging his voice modulators, by the way i do think that dalek WAS just a normal dalek, im just saying this81.108.233.59 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sec before the Cult

I've just bought Doctor Who Series 3 Volume 4 dvd from amazon (contains Utopia, The Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords) and it came with a Doctor Who specials Super Top Trump card which is Dalek Sec. On it it states that Dalek Sec is the leader of the cult, which we know, but then it says that he was originally Commander of the Seventh Incursion Squad untill he was promoted by the Emperor. I know Top Trumps have got some of their facts wrong in the past but i dont think they would just make something like this up, has anyone any idea where this information can be found? Or has Top Trumps taken Doctor Who lore into its own hands for this card? S-m-r-t 09:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't the episodes state that the Cult members were specifically created by the Dalek Emperor for the Cult? If so then they probably are making it up to be more colourful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.48.236 (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't there a story that explained where the cult came from? I can't be bothered finding sources though. 203.100.0.82 (talk) 01:20, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Geez, don't put yourself out. The Top Trumps info links to the book Doctor Who Files: The Cult of Skaro (Matt Kemp & Justin Richards, BBC Children's Books / the Penguin Group. ISBN 978-1-40590-312-7 (2007). The reference to the commander of the Seventh Incursion Squad (later Dalek Sec) appears in a story called ’Birth of a Legend ’ contained in that volume. 86.183.252.223 (talk) 17:18, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dalek Sec.jpg

Image:Dalek Sec.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 05:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Possible future of Dalek Caan?

I was looking on Google about that Red Dalek in the new series, and found this 'http://planetgallifrey.blogspot.com/2008/03/episode-12.html' A short way down there is an image of a Dalek chained and the casing open, revealing the mutant. The site claims that this is Dalek Caan, for some reason being tortured. Any idea where this information came from and whether it is possible to include in the article, or is it just speculation and should be ignored? The First Darklord (talk) 01:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Early Mentions

I am pretty sure the Cult is mentioned in the very early episodes of the series (at least in the Chase). Can anyone confirm or deny this? 81.233.196.49 (talk) 12:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sad to say perhaps, but I'm familiar with every Doctor Who TV serial and episode featuring Daleks that has been screened. The Cult of Skaro is a modern invention and there is no mention of it in the television series prior to its 'reinvention' by Russell T. Davies. Donlock (talk) 21:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Mechonoid or Mechanoid?

I've reverted an edit which had changed 'Mechonoids' to 'Mechanoids'. Both versions seem to have been used in various publications up to the late 80's. From there on the former spelling is usually applied to their appearance in the Doctor Who TV serial The Chase. The latter is mostly reserved for commentary on their appearances in the TV21 Dalek comic strip, as that is the spelling used in that publication. For references to 'Mechonoid' see the BBC Classic series Website entry for The Chase, The Dalek Hand Book p.33, the Doctor Who Ultimate Monster Guide p.83 and Doctor Who: The Cult of Skaro book p.33, among others. 'Mechanoid' seems to have been used throughout Wikipedia regardless of context. I'll tidy that up if I get the time. Donlock (talk) 21:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

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