Talk:Congo lion

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Punetor i Rregullt5 (talk) 06:27, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Dates problem

How come that "In 1924, the American zoologist Allen proposed the trinomen Leo leo azandicus" if was dead for 3 years (Joel Asaph Allen died on August 29, 1921). אביהו (talk) 18:43, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Allen's ms was published posthumously. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Confusion between Northeast Congolese, Katanga and Central-West African lions

I would like to say that some of the information in this article relates to Katanga (Panthera leo bleyenberghi) and West-Central African lions (Panthera leo senegalensis). Panthera leo bleyenberghi was located in the Katanga Province, in southern part of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where Upemba and Kundelungu National Parks are located, indeed, that's why it's also called the "Katanga lion." The range of Panthera leo senegalensis extends from Senegal (after which it gets its other name: "Senegal lion") in West Africa, through Central Africa. The Northeast Congo and Masai lions form an East African clade. Check out the image of the ranges of African lions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_African_lion#/media/File:Panthera_leo_subspecies_late_20th_century.png Leo1pard (talk) 06:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Apart from geographical differences, it should not be that hard to distinguish between the 3 subspecies: Northeast Congo lions appear to be closely related to Masai lions, and their ranges are, at least, not too far away from each other. Katanga lions are amongst the biggest lions and felidae, look at how fat that lion from Etosha National Park is. Senegal lions appear to be more closely related to Barbary and Asiatic lions than to other African lions, and they are even physically similar to Asiatic lions, e.g. small mane and size. Leo1pard (talk) 08:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Confusion between the genetic clades

It's like this, the lion in the Northeastern part of Congo-Kinshasa and Uganda, that is Panthera leo azandica, was acknowledged to be closely related to the Panthera leo massaica, which got subsumed to P. l. melanochaita so P. l. azandica is part of the genetic clade P. l. melanochaita. It's the Senegal lion, which is also present in the Congo, that is part of the clade P. l. leo. Leo1pard (talk) 07:22, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

The only valid subspecies are leo and melanochaita. The others are outdated and obsolete, because they are not sufficiently distinct from either leo and melanochaita to warrant subspecific status. Therefore the articles should be updated accordingly.--BhagyaMani (talk) 08:15, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I did that, except perhaps for the genetically unique Panthera leo roosevelti. Congo-Kinshasa has more than one group of lions. Leo1pard (talk) 08:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Senegal lions in the Congo? is a bizarre statement. roosevelti is not accepted as valid spp. any longer. BhagyaMani (talk) 08:48, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Let me explain by what I mean by the issue of the Senegal lion versus the Northeast Congo lion:

Range map of the commonly accepted subspecies of the lion (Panthera leo) in the second half of the 20th century (P. l. azandica and P. l. nubica are not seperately distinguished because the type specimen of azandicus (northeastern Congo-Kinshasa) does not fit into the subspecies range in the map by Haas et al. (2005).

Genetic clades of Congolese or Central African lions

Panthera leo leo	Panthera leo melanochaita
The Senegal lion, also called the "West African lion" and formerly classified as Panthera leo senegalensis, with a rather small size and mane, similar to its Asiatic cousin. Present in Congo-Kinshasa. The Asiatic lion.	The Uganda lion, also called the "Congo lion" and formerly classified as Panthera leo azandica, with a rather big mane. Present in Northeastern Congo-Kinshasa and Uganda (East Africa). The Masai lion, also called the "East African lion" and formerly classified as Panthera leo massaica.

Does that help to explain what I mean by the "Senegal lion"? I mean it as the group of lions that belong to the clade P. l. leo, and are present in both Western and Central Africa, separate from the Northeast Congo lion, which I mentioned as being part of the clade P. l. melanochaita, that it is present in both Central and Eastern Africa (where Uganda is), and is related to the "Masai lion" found in the East African country of Kenya, where Masai Mara is located. Leo1pard (talk) 10:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

That is not relevant, since today mane size and colour is not a criteria for designation of subspecies. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

But the genetics would be. So consider the Senegal lion to be the population of P. l. leo present in Western and Central Africa, including Congo-Kinshasa, and the Northeast Congo lion to be the population of P. l. melanochaita present in Central Africa, at least in Congo-Kinshasa. Both recognized subspecies share the same landmass, that is Africa, unlike Sunda Island tigers and Mainland Asian tigers. Leo1pard (talk) 11:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

References

Leo1pard (talk) 10:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

See also

• Talk:Central African lion
• Central African lion