Talk:ChibiChibi/Cosmos archive

Historical note: This article was called Sailor Cosmos, and was ranked B class on the assessment scale for WikiProject Anime and manga.

• The image on this page is obviously not a screencap. Can someone fix the copyright info so that it is correct and legal? strideranne 23:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)strideranne

• I've changed it to Character Artwork instead; I hope that's the correct tag to use. - Gemtiger 18:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Merging

Against It is difficult to merge with Chibichibi because of the background involved and pictures as well, to do it the latter article would have to be reformated to accomidate the former, which will be difficult and confusing.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)(Sorry about forgetting to sign)

Against also. ChibiChibi is in the anime, and Sailor Cosmos is not. BettyAnn 04:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Against same reason as BettyAnn's. Ninja neko 18:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Against, and I think it's been long enough with no votes in support that the tag can be safely removed. I'm going to do so now. --Masamage 02:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Didn't we try this once before with the same result? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs).

You should be replying at the location of the current discussion, not the old one. And no, the former merge proposal was to list ChibiChibi under Sailor Cosmos, which doesn't worked for the reasons explained at the current discussion. -Masamage 03:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Cosmos / Sailor Moon

This page needs info about the relation between these two characters, and whether they're the same person or not, and what exactly makes people think they are. I personally am entirely confused by the subject. --Masamage 05:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

This is under heavy dispute as Takeuchi herself has not given official word yet, even when directly asked at San Diego Comic Con which it makes it even more difficult. The future form of Sailormoon does NOT mean Usagi. Chibiusa is also going to be a future form of Sailor Moon, but it doesn't mean she and Usagi are the same. To further cloud the issue people have confused the Tokyopop translations as accurate and correct when it comes to that section, however the original manga is diliberately more vague (which cannot be achieved in English the same way.) If the debate is to be posted it will result in fan wars... so some of that needs to be mitigated in one way or another. To make it worse most people who weigh in on the debate these days does not use previous lore, nor the original manga. Even when the people who've read the Tokyopop manga use the Original manga, they are often clouded by the original Tokyopop manga rather than free of it. So if it's to be added it needs to be added carefully without bias or fan appeal. I've had this debate a number of times before the release of the TP manga. And now having after the release isn't as fun.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Just one last thing--perhaps the final speech should be posted? We'd have to see if it broke Alex Glover's rules and reference him, but it might be worth it.--Hitsuji Kinno 20:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The line of most interest to me is the one where she says "after all, the me of here was always alone too" while showing a picture of Usagi in the background. (Japanese: 'koko' de no watashi mo yahari kodoku datta.) Her refering to Usagi as "the me of here" is pretty strong evidence that she is Usagi's future self. (The counter-argument is that the "me of here" part refers to Chibichibi.) She also says something to the effect of "the chosen path was not a mistake," which could imply that she had been in that place before and chosen that path. Would that be worth mentioning in the article? 24.165.111.9 00:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's easy to see WHY people think they're the same character; Sailor Cosmos' hairstyle is the same, and she generally looks like a more mature Usagi. But it's like Hitsuji Kinno said, posting that kind of stuff invites revert wars. Danny Lilithborne 20:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the way the article is now actually deals with it pretty well. ^_^ Thanks, guys. --Masamage 02:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

At least in the English manga, she said "the me here was alone and suffering too. That's why I stayed close to her" This is more likely to refer to Usagi/Bunny than it is to Chibichibi, but until Naoko tells us directly, it's going to be open for debate for years, just like it has been. At least fanonically, Sailor Cosmos has been identified as Usagi. Ggctuk 14:13, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think it's pretty clear that Cosmos is indentifying herself as Usagi in that act. While the text you're talking about is somewhat ambiguous, Cosmos does state that she came back to the past to fix her mistake-- that being that she didn't destroy the Galaxy Cauldron when she had the chance at that time. The only person during that time to have the chance to destroy the Galaxy Cauldron is Eternal Sailor Moon. As Chibi Chibi, Cosmos was going to encourage Eternal Sailor Moon to destroy the cauldron. After seeing and listening to Eternal Sailor Moon during the fight with Galaxia and Chaos, Cosmos decided that not destroying the Galaxy Cauldron was the right choice, and Eternal Sailor Moon having the strength in her convictions and ideals influences Cosmos to return to her own time to fight Chaos. These same strengths is what prompted Cosmos into saying the Eternal Sailor Moon is the true Sailor Cosmos. I think it's clear that Usagi and Cosmos are two different characters, but Cosmos does share Usagi's memories making them the same person. I think that puts the quoted text into context, that Cosmos is directly saying that she had been Usagi.

To go further, calling Eternal Sailor Moon the true Sailor Cosmos can mean a couple of things. One, that real Sailor Cosmos should have the strength in her ideals and convictions that Sailor Moon does, and not run away when the fight becomes to hard. Another is actually passing on the title of Cosmos because after that point, Usagi never becomes Sailor Moon again. She's shown marrying Mamoru shortly after, and in a few years time will become Neo Queen Serenity. During the Black Moon arc, Serenity stated that she lost her ability to fight as a soldier, so that means either she can never become a Sailor Soldier again or can never become Sailor Moon again. Either way, even if Serenity died, she could be reincarnated and still be able to remember her past life, much like how Usagi remembers her life as Princess Serenity and Cosmos as Usagi.

Serenity can be reincarnated because Chibi Usa doesn't use the same Sailor Crystal as Usagi/Serenity, this shown by the Silver Crystal of Chibi Usa's time in the hands of Venus well after Chibi Usa develops her Pink Moon Crystal. If they were the same Sailor Crystal, Venus wouldn't still have the future crystal after Chibi Usa becomes Chibi Moon. Also, Mamoru comments that Usagi is essentially an eternal being, so tying her future as being Sailor Cosmos makes sense. mochi 14:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm~. I still haven't gotten my own hands on the Stars manga, and am frankly pretty suggestible. ^_^ This sounds reasonable; what do the others who have read it think? --Masamage 23:01, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly believe that Sailor Cosmos once was Usagi. I think she realizes that she's a lot different from how she used to be, as Eternal Sailor Moon still has the belief and hope that she can resurrect her friends while Cosmos fled from battle in the future, which is a major difference in personality but doesn't mean they're different people. Second, doesn't the manga sometimes make it sound like the senshi and their civilian forms are different people anyway? I can't think of a specific example, maybe it's just weird Mixx translations.

I don't like how the page deals with it now. I think it should give more to consider on the debate because right now it doesn't give a very good reason why Sailor Cosmos is or isn't Usagi and acutally makes it seem more like she isn't, IMO. I think the general concensus is that they are the same person.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.113.154.149 (talk • contribs) 21:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Wait a minute... come to think of it, isn't that quote ("The me here was alone and suffering too. That's why I stayed close to her") pretty much a positive identification? Even if you think the "me of here" is Chibichibi, who is the one who is staying close to her? No matter which is which, one of those "I"s is referring to Usagi, and the other is referring to Chibichibi. I know an article is supposed to remain nonbiased, but if we can make assesments like saying that Kou is the Three Lights' first names, not their last (another subject which is still widely debated), I don't see why we can't at least mention the evidence for this argument. --Yumecosmos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.165.111.9 (talk) 04:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

I think that it definitely needs to be mentioned. (And that the Three Lights article needs to be less sure of itself, since you're right, that is an unknown.) --Masamage 22:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia pages aren't supposed to consider debates between fans. Danny Lilithborne 21:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I know that, but if we completely avoid any subject which is debated by fans, we'd end up leaving out a lot of information. If we aren't allowed to consider fan debates, how can the article say that Cosmos is the most powerful soldier in the universe (never directly verified in the manga), or that she is not, in fact, Galaxia's starseed? (Some fans say that Chibichibi is both Galaxia's starseed and Sailor Cosmos.) I'm not saying that the article should take a side. I just thought that quote was worth mentioning as it's often brought up in the discussion of who Cosmos really is. But since many people seem to be against it I won't try to change the article.Yumecosmos 22:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I only see one person against it. I'd love to see the article changed, and I think it's completely appropriate, as well as being important information. Right now it looks like they're definitely not the same person. --Masamage 00:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I always interpreted it that they are the same person; that Sailor Cosmos is the future form of Neo-Queen Serenity. Since we really know nothing of what happens beyond the time of Crystal Tokyo, it's hard to verify. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 21:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm still against it because the issues of fan wars and NPOV. This is a hot issue. I can address some of the problems that this would cause.

1. The confusion between the manga and anime version will be evident.
2. Lack of people who understand the source material. (To really understand, you need to read the Japanese in Japanese... not the translations because dissecting it comes down to how many I's there are. I believe this is too much to ask of English-TP-reading fans to do.) I went through and typed the whole thing out in Japanese, then dissected it line by line and was able to understand the vagueness of it quite a bit more. I gave it to my Japanese language teacher (Japanese) and she also said it was vague.
3. I believe there is a clause in wikipedia that says that speculation is not allowed. If someone can cough something up to the contrary then I can go into detail about all the theories. Believe me I have them all and which ones are more plausible than others...? I don't want this page to turn into the art page...
4. I don't object on the principle itself I object because I dream of this page reaching GA status with the rest of the pages. Set eyes on goal type of thing, ne?

Believe me, one of my gags is to send the question to Takeuchi every year (Birthday present--it's in Japanese because she can't read English) without a response. Even she said it was "complicated" and then made it *more* complicated by stating that Sailor Cosmos is a future form of Sailor Moon, but didn't state if she was Usagi or not. --;; I just don't want fan wars without the right prep on what is allowed and what is not. Personally, I think finishing the manga pages and summaries are more pressing because then we can do a wikilink back and forth if everyone is dead set on keeping this page at a B level. I collect Cosmos theories and discount a few along the way. For example, Sailor Cosmos can't be Sailor Moon's "starseed" nor Galaxia's "starseed". Sapphire Crystal is shown and then the Chibichibi crystal is also shown AND the Silver Moon Crystal. This strikes that theory because in the manga there are no human representatins of the Sailor Crystals. The fact that the theory states starseed means that a person just saw an image on a website and got the anime lore confused with the manga lore. The theory she is Usagi is not supported either. This causes lots of problems with SM lore. 1. Chibiusa is going to become Sailor Moon. If Sailor Cosmos, is in fact, like Takeuchi said going to be the future form of Sailor Moon this means that *she's* more likely to become Sailor Cosmos than Usagi is. Chibiusa is in fact the future form. Also the translation of that section is really difficult to translate in straight English--for one the pronouns in Japanese are used very differently. When Cosmos states the Me of now, she could be referring to two to three things. I rather leave it alone because I don't want to get into Japanese language lessons. Take my word for it that it's meant to be vague. I know this subject well and have debated it numerous times before. I would think this is fan page material, not wikipedia page material. --Hitsuji Kinno 07:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Phew!! Agreed. -SaturnYoshi ^{THE VOICES} 08:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Just to point out, it's never said that Chibi Usa is going to become Sailor Moon. Unlike Usagi and Queen Serenity, Chibi Usa did not inherit Usagi's Sailor Crystal. Chibi Usa developed her own Silver Crystal (see when Venus is holding the future Silver Crystal and Chibi Usa has developed her own Silver Crystal during the Black Moon saga). Even when Chibi Usa had the Pink Moon Crystal, her very own Sailor Crystal, she is still called Chibi Moon instead of being given a new title. It's entirely plausible that Chibi Usa could be Chibi Moon forever, or until her Sailor Crystal morphs. Even then, it's not going to be Usagi's Sailor Crystal. Plus, the title of Sailor Moon may only be connected to Usagi's crystal, and since Chibi Usa does not inherit it, she's even less likely to become Sailor Moon. And out of pure speculation, since the entire series is about Usagi, it would make sense that Cosmos is introduced as a future incarnation of Usagi, not necessarily of Sailor Moon. When people say Sailor Moon, they usually mean Usagi-- not the actual title. Plus Mamoru calls Usagi eternal.

I agree that putting speculations on the wiki entry is a bad idea, but I don't think it's a bad idea to inform why the true origin of Cosmos is widely debated. If a fan does get confused when the information is clearly identified as being comic or cartoon, it is their own fault. 66.189.181.219 11:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The first part is wrong... but that's getting into crystal lore. The ginzuishou of the future is the same crystal of the past. But I'd rather keep that to the crystal page and fan pages on why... I'll invite you to the manga Sailormoon.org forum once it's up for a page by page debate. =P. But I promised a debate about Cosmos first.

The second part we did address best we could without getting into the theories. We stated that Cosmos neither conforms or denies she is the future Sailor Moon nor states definitively who she is. I think this is enough. Fan debates and fights also don't belong on wikipedia pages... So simply stating that in the manga she never states 100% who she is should be enough. --Hitsuji Kinno 04:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Er, if you looked at the act in which Chibi Usa becomes Chibi Moon, you'll see that Venus is holding the future Silver Crystal and that Chibi Usa has developed her own Silver Crystal. If Chibi Usa has the future Silver Crystal of Usagi's, Venus wouldn't be holding it well after Chibi Usa is running around as Chibi Moon. Also, I stay away from Sailor Moon forums as a general rule, so I'll have to decline. Eventually I'll log into back into Wiki, too. Hehe.

I still find no harm in mentioning what Cosmos actually says in response to being asked because Cosmos does clearly say that she basically doesn't have the right to be called Sailor Cosmos because she doesn't posses the courage that Eternal Sailor Moon does. That's worth quoting and noting on the wiki entry without even divulging into whether or not she's a future form of Usagi. 66.189.181.219 08:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Changed Sailor Pallas to Sailor Ceres

It's actually Sailor Ceres who asks Cosmos if she is the future Sailor Moon. The Quartet member drawn is wearing a large bow, the hair tendrils create two circles before extending downwards, and the bangs are puffy and curly; that is the physical appearance of Ceres. mochi 14:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. --Masamage 22:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sailor Cosmos vs Light of Hope

It says in the article that the Light of Hope may be the same as Sailor Cosmos. However, it is explicitly stated in the anime that the Light of Hope is Galaxia's starseed. Having read the discussion on Sailor Cosmos' origins, I sort of understand why it's a possibility, but it is still a pretty far-fetched theory and the way it is presented in the article can only cause confusion. Therefore, I propose to remove this part. --KagamiNoMiko 16:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

...Looks to me like the article is saying she's probably not the light of hope. --Masamage 17:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Many consider them the same"? It never even occured to me to relate the two to each other, and I've never heard anyone else saying this, either. "...which may indicate either that Sailor Cosmos indeed does not appear or that the small speech given by the silhouette of the Light of Hope is not really a role compared to Sailor Cosmos' part in the manga" - this implies to me that the author thinks they are the same. I'm not against mentioning the Light of Hope in this article, but I think a mention of Cosmos' role being taken on by it in the anime should suffice. Isn't anything else fan theory which has no place in an encyclopedia? --KagamiNoMiko 23:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's an "although" before the first thing you quote, meaning that it's about to dispute what those people think; then the second thing you quote says that either it's not her, or she's too altered for it to count. It doesn't matter, though--if the wording is so confusing that we can get exactly the opposite message out of it, it definitely needs adjustment of the kind you're describing. --Masamage 01:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Concerning the recent reversion back to the old statement about the role of the Light of Hope, why did you feel the new statement implied she was in the anime? If you look at detailed cels of the Light of Hope they DO have a similiar physical appearance (dress, hairstyle etc) I wrote the original statement and now feel it is unclear, especially in comparison to the revision. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.253.234.126 (talk) 08:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

Just as a note, the hairstyle is ChibiChibi's anyway, so that's not really conclusive. Neither is the presence of white robes, which is kind of a trend among heavenly beings. --Masamage 08:10, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Right, but if you look at close ups it's pretty clear the outfit is Sailor Cosmos', not just a generic white robe, as you can see a clear outline of her fuku style and even spot the little wing tips on her shoes and lockets. http://www.prose-n-poetry.com/image/Chibi_Chibi/10883 I just don't feel like the old statement is any better, and actually worse, than the reverted edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.253.234.126 (talk • contribs)

Apparently I can't see that image without paying for it. Anyway, if you'd like to reword that part of the article, please do give it a shot. :) As long as it's clear we don't know for certain, there's no reason not to include good information. --Masamage 19:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I just read this on Livejournal, basically it's another summary of why Sailor Cosmos and Sailor Moon are the same person but the most important part is the image in the post because it's something I've never seen before. I thought you all would find it interesting: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.232.176 (talk • contribs)

Didn't Naoko Takeuchi explicitly say the Light of Hope was not Sailor Cosmos? JuJube 23:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, The Light of Hope is not Sailor Cosmos. The Light of Hope can simply be a grown up forum of Chibi Chibi, but Sailor Cosmos is a Sailor Soldier. Sailor Soldiers have starseeds, not are starseeds.66.189.181.219 11:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

since chibi chibi was Galaxia's star seed how was she alive at the end with no braclets or chaos in her body to kee her alive sailor cuteness-ready for love 15:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)