Talk:Charles University/Archive 2

Karl Ferdinand University

Please can someone add that this used to be called Karl Ferdinand University. Also please put in a redirect from there.SureFire 14:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

In response to Tulkolahten: How do you figure that a University that was founded for education in Latin (In the kingdom of Bohemia), later taught in German then also in Czech, was subsequently split into 2 halves (Czech & German), and finally ended up as a University in the modern Czech republic, is (to quote yourself on the edit page): "It was, is and will be czech university."? I must misunderstand what message you are trying to convey? The university has a historical German name, as well as Latin and Czech, has a long history of education in all 3 languages, and happens to be in a city in the modern Czech republic, why should this factual information not be included in an encyclopaedia article on the history of the university? I am not interested in editing war, nor in some misplaced form of nationalism. The University is in Prague, it was founded by Charles I (Later IV) of Bohemia in a region of Europe where at least 4 languages were spoken. Why the insistence that the university being a 'Czech' university, a country which has only officially existed since the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? It seems that this does dishonour to the long and prestigious history of the University!(-- Tempsperdue (talk) 19:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

After Tulkolahten (talk · contribs) put up Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/German Charles-Ferdinand University, which was soon declined for obvious reasons, I've expanded the article to give due coverage of the German history, as well as of the attitude of the Czech authorities. Neither must be denied. -- Matthead  DisOuß   06:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Minor correction: This country has officially existed since the 9th/10th century and was called Bohemia until 1918 (in English). Charles I was king of this country, not "region", which is since 1993 known as Czech Republic (in English). Different name doesn't inevitably mean a different country (see Siam-Thailand, Persia-Iran, etc.). This one was from the very beginning called "Čechy" or "Czechy" in Czech and is now officially called "Česko", which is a modern grammatical variant. Qertis (talk) 21:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Qertis: This has nothing to do with countries, which in their current manifestations as nation sates are a relatively modern creations(see American Independance and French revolution). This 'country 'of which you speak, was in fact a kingdom in the 9th C (the Přemyslid dynasty was founded after their Avar rulers (Eurasian invaders of the crumbling Roman empire) were finally defeated by Charlemagne and Krum (1st Bulgarian empire)), ruled by a hereditary king in a feudal system, of which --for our purposes-- Charles I was most definitely the King, later to be elected the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire as Charles the IV. Charles I was the son of John I of Bohemia of the House of Luxembourg of Germanic nobility. He was the hereditary King of Bohemia and under his rule he acquired Moravia and Silesia (amongst others) to his kingdom. There was no nation state on feudal rule. Also, The term Bohemia seems to stem from the germanic 'Boio-heim' or 'home of the Boii a Celtic people and not from English, even the Romans gave the region the name Boiohaemum in deference to the local Germanic tribes. The 'region' which Charles I controlled contained, German speakers and Slavic speakers (most notably Czechs), who arrived in the 6 century or so as the Germanic speakers moved generally west and south-west (Athought many stayed in major towns such as Prague). The area was, however, also, re-settled to a degree by Germanic speakers after the Mongol invasion of Europe, in the 1240s? to repopulate the region at the behest of the court of Ottokar II (whose grandfather Ottokar I made the title 'king' hereditary, prior to which the rulers used the title 'duke'). Bohemia had close relations to the Carolingian empire ( later to become the Holy Roman Empire and then the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, of which Bohemia was an autonomous part by the early 11 cent). Thus, when Charles University in Prague was founded (1348) in Bohemia, a part of the Holy Roman Empire, there existed both Slavic(primarily Czech) and Germanic speakers in the region. Which is likely why the model utilising 'nations' was used. I wrote all this to highlight that I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply with your 'different name doesn't invariably mean different country' argument?! Charles University was founded by a King's degree in a Kingdom whose people were his subjects, the modern nation state , or country to be created much later. It was most likely in a feudal system that the vast majority of people identified with their city, or region and their city/region's rulers. The point is that this University is the oldest in the region, the oldest in the German speaking world, the oldest in the Holy Roman and the oldest in the Czech speaking world. We would do disservice to such a 'noble' institution as to tar it with the brush of nationalism. It has been the source of many a great thinker, writer, poet, philosopher and scientist. It has seen many of the great minds of the early 20C walk its hallowed halls. To bring the nationalism argument to the table belittles such an institution, when the history is clearly complex, in my opinion. Tempsperdue (talk) 03:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Which is likely why the model utilising 'nations' was used. Nonsense. It was a custom on every medieval university.

Charles University was founded by a King's degree. No, by the pope. It was a Church institution, the teachers were clerics. —Guy Peters ^{Talk • Contributions • Edit counter} 20:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

2Tempsperdue: I was responding to this sentence: Why the insistence that the university being a 'Czech' university, a country which has only officially existed since the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? which implies your misunderstanding of the naming issue of this country. As for the "university nations", this has really nothing to do with the ethnic composition of Bohemia. This system existed on the vast majority of European universities (Prague adopted the Paris university model) and these "nations" were merely a supportive/assistant bodies for students coming from different regions of Europe (e.g. Czech students in Paris belonged to the English nation, to the Bohemian nation in Prague belonged students from Bohemia, but also from Hungary and Croatia, etc.). Qertis (talk) 11:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)