Talk:Charles Corydon Hall/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Larry Hockett (talk · contribs) 00:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I'll be happy to review this. I notice that this is the second GA review for this entry, and normally we look at whether the entry has addressed the feedback from the first review. In this case, however, the first GA review did not provide much specific feedback. I'll post some initial feedback soon. Larry Hockett (Talk) 00:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Lead

• "businessman, scientist, chemist" - Redundant, as a chemist is a type of scientist.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:08, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "One of the applications was that in the use of insulating refrigerators." - Unclear. Do you mean "Rock wool is sometimes used to insulate refrigerators"?

•  Done Source says, ... to extract the rock wool. One of the largest patrons of the company is the Frigidaire Company of Dayton, which uses the product for insulation purposes. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:08, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "It didn't make" - it did not make

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:08, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Early life

• "at Norfolk, Connecticut July 3, 1860" - in Norfolk, Connecticut, on July 3, 1860

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "The family soon after moved" - For clarity, try to get your subject and verb as close as you can. Try "Soon after his birth, the family moved ..."

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "He grew up and went to the local elementary public schools there while a young boy." Some confusing redundancy here. Everyone grows up before elementary school, and almost everyone goes to elementary school young. Try "He attended the local public elementary school."

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:20, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Mid life and career

• "Mid life" isn't really a valid phrase. The single word "midlife" is sometimes used as an adjective (midlife crisis). "Middle life" would be a bit unconventional but more grammatical. Given the subject matter, I would just call this section "Career".

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Hall soon after completing college" - Soon after completing college, Hall ...

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "so sent Hall to" - so it sent Hall to?

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "He thought that perhaps Alexandria's abundance ..." - Shorten this sentence. I think you're saying this: "Hall thought that Alexandria's abundant limestone could be used to produce a rock wool product similar to the steel mineral wool."

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

To be continued... Larry Hockett (Talk) 00:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Mid life and career (cont'd)

• "These were similar to that of the steel slag" - I think by "these" you are referring to the clumps, but "that" is singular and I don't know what you mean by it.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "His product however didn't" - His product, however, did not

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "which he considered caused" - which he considered the cause of

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Hall negotiated the purchase on" - Hall negotiated the purchase of

   Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "could be used in the future" - no need for "in the future"

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Hall in 1902 created" - In 1902, Hall created

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:58, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "produce this product as the first factory in the United States to do so." - very wordy - created the Crystal Chemical Company, and it was the first U.S. company to make this product.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "cheaper than imported cork, fireproof, and vermin-proof." - cheaper than imported cork, and it was fireproof and vermin-proof.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Crystal chemical Works" - This seems to be a different name than the one above.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "It then ceased to exist" - I assume you're talking about his company, but when is then? That's an important detail.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Hall in 1906" - move "in 1906" after investors or at the very end of the sentence.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "It used coke then" - What's the purpose of "then" in this sentence?

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "One consumer that" - Try starting this sentence with "The Frigidaire Appliance Company used" (shorter).

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "very productive by 1920 and the leader in the field" - Change to "the leader in the field by 1920" - we can infer productivity.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "He developed" - Hall or his son?

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "its father and progenitor" - what's the distinction between these two?

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:50, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

• "He then married again to Carrie Scott" - He married Carrie Scott in _____________ (year).

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

• "after being forty-seven years" - after 47 years

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 09:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Right now I've only looked at issues related to clear writing. After this feedback is addressed, I'll run through and fix a few minor things like commas. Then we can look at the references and whether the article covers the major aspects of Hall's life. Thanks. Larry Hockett (Talk) 02:03, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: - All issues have been addressed. Can you take another look. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I ran through and completed a copyedit. I fixed a couple of items from the bullets above (they had been marked "Done" but had actually not been addressed).

As I was reading through the entry, a couple of things stuck out to me:

• You list his place of birth as Sandisfield in the infobox, which isn't consistent with the body of the article. You don't list a place of death in the infobox, but it seems significant since he spent so much time in Alexandria. I have seen this same contradiction in some sources. Maybe list the birthplace as whichever is more commonly listed in reliable sources, but use a footnote to indicate that the other is also listed as the birthplace in some references.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:08, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• The steel plant management position in Illinois - was this a branch of the St. Louis Ore Steel Company or another company? There is significant weight given to this position in the Career section, but we never really name it.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:30, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• So he moves his family to Alexandria for good in 1895, but he never gets to go to work in the new plant because of the merger and relocation. It sounds like Hall did not relocate to Youngstown, so what did he do between 1895 and 1897 when we describe him on this business trip? Was he in business for himself on this trip, or was he representing a company? This is a big hole in his career trajectory, and I would think reliable sources would cover this.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:48, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• The entry feels a little thin on details at times. The 1976 Alexandria newspaper source has some good stuff. It lists his mother's occupation, lists a notable classmate (who has a Wikipedia article) at Worcester Polytechnic, and gives some enlightening details about Hall going out on bicycle to sell rock wool.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• "Purdue-educated son" is kind of a unique phrase from this same article, so we probably should not use it in our article. Maybe rephrase to "Cordy, who had attended Purdue University, developed a talented sales team ..."

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think the lay reader will know what "mat and roll" is (from the photo caption).

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• Some of the Personal life section is personal life, but some is really "later life".

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

• Since some cardiac issues come on suddenly and others more slowly, we may want to specify that Hall had been very sick for a few weeks. I saw this in at least a couple of the sources.

•  Done --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Now I'll check to make sure that the facts in the article are supported by the sources; at the same time, I'll check for copyright violations or close paraphrasing. Larry Hockett (Talk) 03:57, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: - All additional issues have been addressed. Can you take another look. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:42, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Reference checks and follow-up on the writing

• Reference #1 (the 1976 Alexandria paper) appears to be the source for the first portion of the Early life section. This reference indicates that Hall was born in Norwalk and moved to Sandisfield, but our article says born near Sandisfield and moved to Norwalk. I still think a footnote would be good too, since sources seem to disagree on this.

Done

• Unless I am missing it, Reference #1 doesn't support his being born on a farm.

Reference #3 says he was born on a farm.

• Remove the comma after the first Massachusetts (not needed because of the parenthesis).

Done

• We had a good sentence ("He attended the local public elementary school") that looks like it was fouled up this morning. Please take out the words "grammar" and "as a child". Remember, above we said that you can leave out the fact that Hall attended elementary school young (no one attends when they're old). Same goes for leaving out "as a child".

Done

• Ref #1 mentions grade school but doesn't support a description of his elementary school (public, local).

Ref #2 mentions him going to grammar school (local public elementary school) - After attending the grammer school at Norfolk, he went to an academy at Marlboro...

• You need the state after Marlboro, because that's not a commonly known city.

Done

• Not seeing anything about Elwood Haynes in Refs 2 and 3.

Moved Ref #1 to end of paragraph, that does mention him.

• When I mentioned the steel plant above, I commented that the company wasn't named in the article. You marked it done, but it would have been better to reply "Done, but I was unable to locate the name of the company despite a thorough search." It seems like this information should be available in reliable sources.

I did look for this in reliable sources and they only mention "plant" or ""steel mill". Reference #3 is a type of autobiography and Hall doesn't even mention a name himself for the steel plant. There is no name for it in any of the sources.

• Ref #4 actually indicates a job in Southern Ohio before the one in Illinois.

Copy edited accordingly.

• Ref #1 indicates that after the Alexandria plant relocation, he was transferred to Illinois, didn't like it, resigned, moved back to Alexandria, and went into business for himself trying to make rock wool. The article still has the flimsy explanation it did when I commented on it the first time, even though you marked it Done. It creates a lack of trust between a nominator and reviewer when this happens repeatedly. If you have questions about feedback, don't hesitate to ask, but don't say "Done" unless you're pretty sure you've gotten it taken care of.

Copy edited accordingly.

• In addition to not explaining Hall's career very well, that same passage fails to explain why no steel was made. As I understand it, no steel was made there because of the merger with the other company. The way we have it now, the reader would think it was the other way around (that the lack of steel production caused the merger).

Copy edited accordingly.

• You don't clarify who he represented (seems like he was in business for himself) on the 1897 business trip despite marking it Done above.

Copy edited accordingly.

• Ref #10 describes the limestone as peculiar, but I don't think it refers to specific features like melting point, so that ref can be removed. It looks like Ref #11 covers all of your points.

Copy edited accordingly.

We are only a few paragraphs into the article, but that's plenty of feedback for one night. Will continue soon. Larry Hockett (Talk) 05:51, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: All additional issues have been addressed. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 13:11, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

For readability, it is best not to lump all of the references at the end of a paragraph or section. Please keep the references with the statements that they each support. Go ahead and check the rest of the article for this issue. This is normally part of preparing an entry for a GA nomination. Larry Hockett (Talk) 03:44, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: According to Wikipedia:Citing sources An inline citation means any citation added close to the material it supports, for example after the sentence or paragraph, normally in the form of a footnote. I have done 130 Good Articles with dozens of GA reviewers and none of them have brought up that of what you say for a GA requirement. I looked at all the GA requirements and have not found what you say as a GA requirement. I believe it is best to cluster the references at the end of a paragraph as the references many times cover several of the sentences in the paragraph. Doing otherwise I believe would be incorrect, based on my experience of writing articles. If that is your particular requirement, then I suggest you fail the nomination so I can go on to bigger and better things. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: P.S. FWIW I have created 500 Did You Know articles and it was not a requirement there either. I clustered the inline references in all these DYKs and there was never an objection there in 15 years of creating articles. Of note is that there were hundreds of different reviewers involved with my articles. I have worked with all the top GA and DYK producers and none have come up with that of what you say as a requirement.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:51, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: P.S. FWIW Out of all the articles I have created in 15 years, it turns out 97% have become Did You Know articles and 25% of those have become Good Articles.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:17, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: P.S. FWIW During the last GA drive I made 34 Good Articles during the 31 days of October 2020. None of the reviewers brought up the idea of not clustering at the end of the paragraphs and all those articles I clustered the inline references at the end of the paragraphs. Clustering this way seems to be the customary way of doing references as approved by the top GA producers and the editors at the Guild at Copy Editors.--Doug Coldwell (talk)

@Larry Hockett: P.S. FWIW My last article I created became a Did You Know with 19,919 views - which happens to be one of the top views for any article ever of a non-lead article. It consists of just one basic paragraph and the inline references are clustered at the end. It's a good thing I am of Irish descent.--Doug Coldwell (talk)

Doug, I did not mean to make you feel defensive about your past contributions or force you to defend DYK or GOCE practices in this GA review. During a review of a Good Article, you know it is customary to check references to ensure that they support the material that they are said to support. When I started doing those checks here, I encountered an alarming number of issues, and my point is that your changes make it harder to determine the sourcing for these statements. I am sure that's not what you intended, and I hope you will decide to continue addressing the review feedback. I hope that, after some reflection, you will be able to appreciate the importance of these referencing issues, especially for statements like Hall's birthplace which are likely to be challenged. Larry Hockett (Talk) 15:00, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

@Larry Hockett: I'm leaving the article the way it is. You can either either pass or fail it. I'm off to do bigger and better things.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:09, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

Closing this as unsuccessful per Doug's comment above. I think we could have talked through the issue of the citation placements, but I have more review feedback (and ongoing concerns about some feedback marked as addressed) that would have required the continued engagement of an editor. I can understand that sometimes Wikipedia-related stress is best addressed by disengaging, and I respect the nominator's wish to do that here. Larry Hockett (Talk) 00:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)