Talk:Cernunnos/Archive 1

Archive 1

"Collective Saxon Psyche"?/

It is, however, possible that Herne is a much-diluted incarnation of Cernunnos that was absorbed into the collective Saxon pyche.

Its not clear what that is supposed to mean. Does it mean that Saxons somehow came accross images of Cernunnos, in Merovingian Gaul, centuries after Christianisation, and then somehow this memory surfaced in Windsor forest for some unknown reason? It seems like pure speculation, unreferenced, and impossible to substantiate.

The urge to creata a separate article, Cernunnos (Wiccan) to give this sort of stuff a home is growing stronger .... --Nantonos 18:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Worshipers would have had little totems and took them with them all over the world. Catholics do this today. It is not unreasonable to think that at least one person carried at least one image outside the main worship area. Not only was there trade across all Europe, but war and barbarian raids. Unreasonable would be finding evidence in pre-Columbian MezoAmerica or on the moon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.49.126 (talk) 17:25, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Removals

I removed "He was worshipped over a wide area of Europe, from Romania to Ireland, as evidenced by various representations found in around thirty different sites across the continent." because no evidence was presented for this, and a distribution map of archaeologically attested Cernunos representations does not extend anywhere near Ireland. I replaced this with a description of the actual artefact distribution.

I removed "providing an illustration of the way in which Celtic gods were absorbed into the Roman pantheon." because, unlike many other Gallo-Roman sculptures, it shows exactly the oppisite - Gaulish deities presented stand-alone as equals with the Roman deities, not assimilated onto them.

Added clarification about which tribe Lutetia was the capital of, and the date the monument was found. Removed mention of an altar, since the monument is way too tall (6m) for an altar.

I removed "the only written record" because that is incorrect, and added the other written records, two from Luxembourg and one from the Rhone valley.

Similarly I deleted "It is not known whether the name Cernunnos was a local name bestowed by the Parisii tribe (from whom Paris got its name) or was used by other Celtic tribes as well." because the other two inscriptions are from different tribes, which answers the question clearly.

The parenthetical statement about etymology, "(actually appearing as [_]ernunnos on the inscription - the first letter of the name having been scraped off at some point - but can safely be restituted to "Cernunnos" because of the depiction of an antlered god below the name and the fact that cern means "horn" or "bumb, boss" in Old Irish and is etymologically related to similar words in Welsh)" was moved to a separate paragraph and expanded.

The mention of "the Gauls did not use chairs" was removed as ahistorical, since Gaulish mother goddesses are shown seated in wickerwork chairs.

--Nantonos 21:38, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

---

I removed:

"He was believed to be born at the winter solstice, married a goddess at Beltane and died at the summer solstice annually. He is a life-death-rebirth deity."

Because it is an ahistorical neopagan belief projected back on to the past like several other things I removed. Like that Cernunos was worshipped all across Europe, despite the fact that there is only one instance of his name ever in historical finds, and there is only one other similiar depiction (the Gundestrop cauldron) in existance. Herne who he was connected with is also a late Anglo-Saxon folk-figure from the Windsor forest, therefore not Celtic, and not a pre-Christian God.

---

I removed

"the Horned One was worshipped by the iron age Celts all across Europe as late as the 1st century, and his worship must have begun centuries before that. Little is known about him since the Celts had no written language of their own and their druids were forbidden to write down their knowledge even though some of them knew Latin and Greek; everything we know about him can only be guessed at from images created by the Celts. His name "

This is completely ahistorical. We have one partial attestation of the name "Cernunnos" on the Parisi altar; it's missing the C, but the Cerne-reflex is fairly common in Celtic languages. There are other "horned man, sitting, with torcs and/or animals", most notably on the Gundestrup cauldron, but we do not know that they are the same deity.

I changed

"The word Cornu means "horned" in both modern French and in Latin, which was originally imposed upon them by the Romans."

To

The word Cornu means "horned" in both modern French and the cognate Celtic Cern_ means much the same.

We have no evidence at all that Latin was imposed on the Continental Celts; in fact there's some evidence that the reverse happened; Latin speakers learned the local language(s).

I changed the word Roman in

"Cernunnos is a Roman name meaning "Horned One," "

to Gaulish; it is a Gaulish word/name.

I deleted

probably the new Romanised name given by the Gauls to their very old horned god, in which case its use may have been widespread throughout Gaul after it became a Roman province.

Because the word is native Celtic, not Latin, thus original statement is false in every respect.

I deleted

He was believed to be born at the winter solstice, married a goddess at Beltane and died at the summer solstice annually. He is a life-death-rebirth deity.

Cave paintings in France from the Paleolithic show an upright stag; this may indicate that Cernunnos was worshipped in the Paleothic Era.

We have no data at all on Cernunnos other than the partial name, and some similar iconography--and not much of that.

The link between Paleolithic and Bronze//Iron age peoples is . . . daft in the extreme. The I.E. proto-language(s) were not even extant then! The peoples were genetically and linguisitically different; see Cunliffe et al.

I deleted

"The Druids knew him as Hu Gadarn or Herne, ruler of the underworld and astral planes."

Hu Gadarn is a sixteenth century Welsh figure, immortalized by IIolo Morganwg/Edward Williams. Herne is a late medieval Anglo-Saxon figure, not at all Celtic, and not at all likely to be someone known by the Celtic speaking druids.

I changed

"Because of his frequent association with beasts he is often referred to as The Lord of the Animals. Because of his association with stags in particular (a particularly hunted beast) he is also known as The Lord of the Hunt."

To

Because of his frequent association with beasts scholars often describe Cenunnos as The Lord of the Animals. Because of his association with stags in particular (a particularly hunted beast) he is also described as The Lord of the Hunt. Interestingly the Parisi altar links him with sailors, (the altar was dedicated by sailors) and with commerce (he is shown with coins).

We don't know how the Celts referred to him or saw him, except for the data in the iconography, and the only example we know with reasonable certainty is Cernunnos is the Parisi altar.

I changed

at Samhain, the Celtic Halloween Festival

To

at Samhain, the Celtic New Year Festival usually associated with October 31.

to clarify Samhain, and its relationship to the Celtic year. DigitalMedievalist 03:11, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC) Lisa

Iconography

I have my doubts about the "strikingly consistent" and "nearly always" claims. The paragraph seems just to describe the Gundestrup depiction, but phrasing it as if that was extremely common. Already the Pilier depiction doesn't have stag's horns at all, and it's just a head, with none of the other attributes. If we talk about striking consistence, we should name several examples that actually do coincide. dab (ᛏ) 07:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I haven't got to working on the iconography yet. Wanted to get the first sets of edits in. Completely agree that a description of common attributes needs to be backed up by hard data. I do have a list of the Cernunnios representations known to me and (as in the preceeding section) will be referencing named depictions not some vague 'commonly' and 'often'. Its not just Gundestrup and the Pilier. The Pilier does indeed have stags horns (antlers) - I have seen the actual statue several times and photographed it. Its not 'just a head', either; its the head and shoulders to mid chest, on the top half of a block (other blocks, such as Tarvos Trigaranus, we have both the top and bottom halves, so we know that each block was in two halves of equal size). From that, clearly, the figure must have been seated in a cross legged fashion since there is no room for a standing or seated on a chair figure. --Nantonos 14:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just from looking at the two photos currently on the site, I wouldn't say that the similarities are "strikingly consistent" – you might as fairly call it a family resemblance. (The antlers/horns look completely different, for a start.) QuartierLatin1968 21:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The analysis is not made on the basis of only two photos, but rather on the basis of the known corpus. --Nantonos 10:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Good – I'd hope not! :-) Talking of analysis, though, can we cite an attribution for that assessment? Only otherwise what's "striking" sounds like it's merely in the eye of the beholder... Cheers, QuartierLatin1968 16:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Welsh/Irish Allusions?

are there any allusions to Cernunnos or horned gods in Welsh or Irish medieval literature? i can't think of any, but it is possible that i am overlooking something. Whateley23 07:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't believe so. QuartierLatin1968 21:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe in Irish. There's a figure named Furbaide Fer Benn, who has horns, but it's not clear whether these are horns like cattle or antlers.[1]. There's also the long list of the names of the Dagda in Cath Maige Tuired, among which are "Fer Benn" and "Cerrce", both of which might refer to antlers. On the other hand, the Dagda is never explicitly described as having horns or antlers or any kind, so it's really a matter of debate, and I'm ambivalent about it.MaryJones (talk) 18:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Some Comments

in the section titled "Origins", i don't know that it is accurate to say that the Minotaur is associated with "nature, animals, and the primordial wild", and there is little reason to suppose that Cernunnos is associated with those outside of the Gundestrup Cauldron. Whateley23 13:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Cernunnos is, rather, associated with (to choose three obvious instances) sailors (Pillier des nautes, triton-like legs in some depictions, etc), with commerce (cornucopiae of coins), and with transformation from one state to another (antlers, theriomorphic form, etc). this would seem to make him more like Mercury/Hermes - though i have no references in that direction to hand, so i suppose that should be discarded as original research. Whateley23 13:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

there is not really any reason to believe that the "Sorceror" of Lascaux is horned, and less to believe that it is related in any way to Cernunnos. photos don't seem to show anything like the image that was originally hand-drawn by 20th century explorers. see, for instance, this image. contrarily, why is there no mention of the image at Val Camonica, which is much more likely to be related to Cernunnos? Whateley23 13:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Some thoughts on Wiccan beliefs

In Wicca, imagery derived from historical Celtic culture is sometimes used, including a depiction of Cernunnos, often referred to as The Horned God. This version of Cernunnos is based little on historical findings and more on phallic symbolism, merged from elements of Pan. The adherents generally follow a life-fertility-death cycle for Cernunnos, though his death is now usually set at Samhain, the Gaelic New Year Festival usually taking place on October 31.

Is there any need to discuss the wiccan beliefs here, perhaps linking to horned god would suffice? The sentence on historical basis is a little odd; there is little historical evidence to base anything on, and the phallic symbolism part is better dealt with in a larger article.

I will probably change this to be a more simple reference in the days to come if there is no feedback. BananaFiend 21:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

still no feedback? BananaFiend 12:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

After advice on being bold, removing all discussion of wiccan beliefs, which are more suited to the main wiccan page. BananaFiend 14:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Horns vs Antlers

It is clear from the Parisii monument and others of Cernunnos (especially on the Gundestrup cauldron) that Cernunnos has antlers and not horns. IMO, this is a significant difference.

Horns are made of keratin (the protein of the outer layer of the skin), are not alive, and do not shed seasonally. Cows, sheep, goats... have horns.

Antlers are made of bone and shed seasonally in most ungulates. Deer, Elk, Moose... have antlers.

One wonders if seasonal shedding had meaning to the Iron Age Celts? In any case, Cernunnos is aan antlered God, not a hornéd god.

Kernos (talk) 17:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Technically you are correct but unfortunately there is no evidence that the ancient peoples who worshipped Cernunnos made any distinction between horns and antlers, similar to the way ancient men made no distinction between whales and fish, and bats and birds.BoyintheMachine (talk) 01:21, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Finding of a reference to Cernunnos in Spain

Acordign this blog (in spanish):

http://castillapaganfront.blogia.com/2007/110601-estela-a-cerrnunnos.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.93.236 (talk) 00:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

http://www.my-forum.org/_224636/Estela_a_Cernunnos_en_CReal_232.html (A better photo). I don't know what "castillapaganfront" refers to, but the information seems true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.161.186 (talk) 15:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Cernwn???

OK, I know of no reference to "Cernwn" in Welsh literature. The site linked to only gives a description of a giant in the medieval Iarlles y Ffynnon, who doesn't have any of the attributes of Cernunnos (antlers, ram-headed serpent, torcs, etc.), and instead is a one-eyed, one-legged, one-handed monster who happens to herd animals. There's no good reason to connect him with Cernunnos, and there is no evidence for anyone named Cernwn. I'm thinking it should go. MaryJones (talk) 18:28, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it should go. I can't find any sources for it. --Davémon (talk) 22:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Kronos - Saturn - Cush

It's obvious that this enigmatic Celtic God is nobody else than Kronos, Chronos.

It takes modern spelling to elude this clear evidence: phonetically it is obviously the very same name in Greek and Gaelic lenguages. Everything including the root KRWN points to horn and/or crown.

Also called Cush or Kush in the Bible, grandson of Noah this character is the father of Nimrod founder of Babylon (Alexander_hislopThe Two Babylons). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.185.183.103 (talk) 19:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

no it is not obvious. In fact, it's not the case at all. See also WP:RS. --dab (𒁳) 09:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, for the poetic or typological connection (to be distinguished from either scientific linguistics or the actual origin of the myths), see Frederick Ahl, "Amber, Avallon, and Apollo's Singing Swan," American Journal of Philology 103.4 (1982) 373–411, pp. 398–402, especially note 88. Caution: Professional driver. Don't try this at home, kids. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:31, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The Celtic god Cernunnos has absolutely nothing to do with the Greek god Chronos. I believe you are attempting to play "the name game", a silly game certain antiquated and culturally ignorant scholars of the 19th century played, wherein if a word 'sounds' similar to another word then therefore they must be related.BoyintheMachine (talk) 01:19, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

As stated above, the connection has no foundation in scientific linguistics. I simply cited Frederick Ahl's article from the 1980s (that would be the late 20th century) that explains why this identification retains a hold on the poetic imagination. I made the joke because Ahl's far-ranging approach is likely to go wrong in the hands of amateurs like us. The article deals with a particular complex of myth as it appears in classical and early medieval literature, with a section on how glimpses of myths from the continental Celts are found in Greek and Latin sources; for instance, in the Argonautica Apollonius gives an alternate version of the Phaethon myth that he says is the one the Celts tell. In antiquity, the kind of verbal associations that seem silly to us were made regularly and seriously by the likes of Varro, Festus and Isidore of Seville. Nothin' to do with the 19th century. Ancient etymologies tell linguists very little about the actual origins of words, but they give other scholars evidence of how people in antiquity and the middle ages thought about these things, often in the context of theology, mythology, or antiquarianism. The goal with this scholarly approach is not to determine a shared linguistic root, or whether this god is "really" this god, but to study patterns of thought and belief. After all, these gods don't exist; it's a study of what people believe, not what is. See Davide Del Bello, Forgotten Paths: Etymology and the Allegorical Mindset (Catholic University of America Press, 2007).[2] I'm assuming you checked whether Ahl was a reputable scholar and read his article before you insulted my intelligence, but you might also find the introduction to Del Bello's book interesting. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:30, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Interpretatio graeca outlines this line of thinking in antiquity and could do with some better sources, perhaps Ahl/Bello could be used there? None of the etymology in this article is sourced to articles that talk directly about Cernunnos - is the etymology of the name considered significant to the understanding of the subject at all? So what if Cornwall has the same root, it's not relevant! Davémon (talk) 18:32, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

    The etymology of the name Cernunnos has no relevence past the Latin/Celtic origin, referencing "horn(ed)".BoyintheMachine (talk) 06:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Not sure what the fuss is about: contra the remark below, Cernunnos cannot possibly be a Latin word, as anyone who knows Latin would see at once. Xavier Delamarre considers it a Celtic word. Since his Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise is a solid source, though not the last word, I can provide his note on Cernunnos. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

'Cernunnos' is a Latin word or in the least a "Romanized" Celtic name. It is definitely not a purely Celtic word. A simple google search should clear this up for you.BoyintheMachine (talk) 06:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. "A simple Google search" would give me all kinds of nonsense from every un-scholarly website out there. You'd have to produce a better source that Xavier Delamarre, whose goal in the Dictionnaire is consonant with WP's: he usually doesn't present original interpretations (though he does assert what he thinks is the right one sometimes), and presents multiple interpretations when these exist. The name is perfectly explicable as Celtic; it is not explicable by means of Latin morphology. See this entry in John Koch's encyclopedia, where Maier's dissent is noted (without further explanation, however; I've been meaning to look that up). If the name means "horned," obviously this is relevant to the iconography of the god, since the one labeled depiction is horned (many languages, including Latin and I think modern French, don't use a separate word for 'horn' and 'antler'). The use of the word 'horn' in Celtic personal names and tribal names, and the archaeological attested use of horned helmets among the Celts, is a cultural pattern. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, if Frederick Ahl said anything quotable about Cernunnos we should by all means refer to him. As for Cronus, I note now that there are speculative suggestions connecting that name to Semitic qrn "horn". Not, of course, to Celtic Cernunnos. Gods with horns can at best be compared typologically, and this would be a topic for horned god. The fact that the Semitic and the Indo-European words for "horn" sound similarly is interesting, but it has nothing to do with Cernunnos. There also isn't any interpretatio graeca for Cernunnos, because the name wasn't even known to the Greeks. There is no identifiable "Celtic god Cernunnos", and the "Cernunnos" topic is reduced to discussing "horned or antlered figures in Celtic iconography". I must agree with Cynwolfe that BoyintheMachine clearly has no idea what he is talking about, and that this topic is beyond the grasp of "basick google searches" --dab (𒁳) 15:52, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Dab, you lost me there with your "BoyintheMachine clearly has no idea what he is talking about" statement, especially since your comment above sides more with my position than with Cynwolfes. Perhaps you need to reread this particular discussion section again. As far as Cynwolfe goes, his belief that that the word "Cernunnos" is Celtic is mistaken. If you google, what I suggested, you will find many, many pages stating point blank that the word is Latin. Some pages will specifically state that the Celtic peoples did not have any written languages until rather late in their history. The inscriptions that read 'Cernunnos', from whence we arrive at a term for the god, be it an actual name or not, date post-Roman conquest. Many of the images of the god are show accompanies with purely Roman divinities. It's no shocker. To claim that 'Cernunnos' is a purely Celtic name is absurd. At best it could only be a blend of Celtic and Latin.BoyintheMachine (talk) 06:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

re this. what the hell does the etymology of 'horn' have to do with Pokorny's biography? Sheesh. --dab (𒁳) 09:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Etymology 2 - Hebrew

Strange that in Hebrew (all the dialects) there is this anciant root, K-R-N, which refers to the word "horn". for example, "Karan" means "he got horned" or lyrical "he got radiated or shined". Horn in hebrew is simply "Keren". this root is very common in Hebrew (archaic, biblical, mishnaic and modern) and appeared in the bible with different varieties. it is also common in other semitic languages, in the extinct ones like Ugaritic, Ge'ez, Akkadian, and in the extant ones like Arabic, Aramaic and Ethiopian languages. is it possible that this word came from hebrew or another semitic language into the indo-european languages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.139.57 (talk) 21:51, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The name 'Cernunnos' is Latin, not Celtic. We have no idea what the proper Celtic name for the god is. The etymology of the name Cernunnos would have no significance to this entry past the Latin origins.BoyintheMachine (talk) 01:14, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

'Cernunnos' is not a Latin word, and makes no sense as Latin. See reply to Davemon above. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:26, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

'Cernunnos' is either a Latin word or a 'Romanized' form of the Celtic word. 'Cernunnos' is definitley not a purely Celtic word. A basick google search should clear this up for you.BoyintheMachine (talk) 06:15, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

why would you keep saying that in the face of excellent evidence to the contrary? I have no idea what google turned up for you. Perhaps this? Well, you shouldn't believe just anything you read, even in printed books. --dab (𒁳) 15:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

205.213.240.8 (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC) Well, the allusion to being shined on seems more to the correct interpretation, that of a lost ability to manipulate the emotions with sound. The references to this are in all Celtic mythology. Please note the "strange" ram-headed serpent wand is also referred to in the Old Kingdom of Egypt. In Scientific American 2010 is a 3D pic of the brain clearly showing the curling hippocampi (ram horns) with the hawk-headed top of the thalamus/hypothalamus/brain stem rising between. Degraded knowledge rapidly becomes myth & legend supposedly without basis or suffers from a complete incorrect identification. The temples of Malta have been shown to resonate with a Hz value & below 2 Hz induces deep refreshing sleep. 205.213.240.8 (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

To the original poster, your observation is perfectly correct, there may be a loan relation, or a phylogenetic relation, between the Semitic and Indo-European words for "horn". But this has of course nothing whatsoever to do with the Celtic god, who is simply named for the Gaulish word for "horn" as it was around 100 BC. The possible relation of the Semitic and Indo-European words for "horn" must be looked for at least around 3000 BC, if not 7000 BC, so this question is completely unrelated to the article topic.

The place to discuss this, based on decent references, would be at wikt:Appendix:Proto-Indo-European *ḱer- / wikt:Appendix:Proto-Semitic *qarn-. --dab (𒁳) 10:48, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Ho! finally :) thank you! (the original poster) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.139.57 (talk • contribs)

It is easy to find references on google books establishing that a common "Aryo-Semitic" origin of the word was suggested at least as early as in the 1880s. Current opinion seems to favour the possibility that Semitic qrn was originally loaned from Indo-European. --dab (𒁳) 12:06, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll go away

I was attempting to provide sourced material from standard works on Celtic culture, such as Koch's and Maier's. I see that Maier has now been now made to say something he doesn't (he doesn't mention Carnonos), and although Koch/Ellis found it significant enough to include Conall Cernach in the Cernunnos entry, a WP editor has decided that he knows better. Now I see why this article presents such incomplete information about the history of scholarship on the topic: sourced information is deleted arbitrarily, without providing sources to the contrary and by manipulating sources to say what they don't. Clearly issues of WP:NPOV and WP:OWN are at play here. So have fun; I won't bother you further. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

What on earth is going on here? John T. Koch in his 'Celtic Culture: a historical encyclopaedia' clearly states that "it has been suggested that Conall Cernach and Cernunnos are ultimately the same figure". Why shouldn't this be included in the article? Davémon (talk) 19:17, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

For the record, guys. That's Peter E. Busse, not Koch. Cavila (talk) 19:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted myself for now, as I was not aware I was doing anything controversial. I'll review my own edit and take it step by step. --dab (𒁳) 06:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't get it. This was my edit. Both Cynwolfe and Davemon seem to be complaining about a removal of the bit about Conall Cernach. While in reality I have not removed it, I have merely moved it out of the "Name" section, because strictly speaking it doesn't discuss the name Cernunnos, it discusses a possible reflection of the Gaulish deity in Insular tradition. So I frankly don't know what to make of this, you both seem to be complaining about a removal of content that never took place. --dab (𒁳) 09:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I believe most people would understand "classic" as basic, triangular nose and mouth and peg teeth. Your Jack-O'-Lantern is nice, but it's not "classic". BoyintheMachine (talk) 01:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Apologies, an oversight on my part. Glad to see the content is still in tact. Davémon (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Iovi Cerneni

What's about the inscription from Rosia Montana in Romania that mention Iovi Cerneni (source: CIL 03, p 0924,01 = IDR-01, 00031 = D 07215a = ZPE-165-259, you can find it here: http://db.edcs.eu/epigr/epi_en.php). It's a long inscription, so I can't understand, what it is about and if it really mention a god Cernenus or if it's a name or so. Does someone have more information about it? --Treveros (talk) 17:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The inscription is about a burial association (collegium, for which on Wikipedia see Burial society#In antiquity and Associations in Ancient Rome#Burial associations); I don't know what a Jupiter Cernenus could be other than the deity around whom the collegium was organized. I haven't translated it all, just skimmed it, but it seems to be an outline of their mutual responsibilities. There is an only partial English translation here. Post if the link doesn't work for you, since Google Books access can vary, and I'll give you the passage. Around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, it was thought that Cernenus = Cernunnos furthered the functional equivalence of Cernunnos with Dis Pater or Plouton, the latter of whom in the mystery religions was known as or the same as Zeus Chthonios. Here, though, it's doubted that this Jove Cernenus is Cernunnos. I'm not sure why that interpretation fell out of favor. Cynwolfe (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Cernunnos

This article makes me remember of the Bulgarian epic folk tales. There is an evil personage every time killed by the good heroes which name is the "Cutted nose". In many epic songs is mentioned that the pure evil is with cutted nose, hollow nose, or no nose. I have no idea where that comes but we have many historical evidence of a punishmet by cutting the nose, or ears or blinding. I have no idea what the etimology of Cernunos is but if i have to translate the name of this Irish god now it would be the "Black nose" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Pashupati comparison

The section that compares the Gundestrup figure (identified as Cernunnos) with the presumed proto-Shiva on a "Pashupati" seal from Mohenjo-daro is, effectively, an unsourced speculation, WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. The sole source offered in that section to support the connection deals with nothing more than the likely provenance and metallurgical and technical aspects of the cauldron; no mention of seals, or proto-Shivas - see Nielsen, S; Andersen, J; Baker, J; Christensen, C; Glastrup, J; et al. (2005). “The Gundestrup cauldron: New Scientific and Technical investigations”, Acta Archaeologica, 76, readable without subscription (for any who care to check) at Scribd. Other sources offered seem to discuss the seal, but not Cernunnos. Fwiw, my own quite recent searches for reliable sources on this "Pashupati type" yielded nothing whatever that compares the two figures. So I'm removing the entire section, along with the illustrations of the seal. Haploidavey (talk) 19:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I also removed (in the same edit) the purported Irish "Cernunnos" image as unsourced speculation. Haploidavey (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060506110833/http://www.voli.bs.it/itinera/02/senza_itinerario/piancogno/des_piancogno.html to http://www.voli.bs.it/Itinera/02/senza_itinerario/piancogno/des_piancogno.html

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See also links

To this point of External links, I just alphabetized the list to make it read better. In the process, I looked at all of them and became puzzled about the one to Frey. Not quite sure how that fits with Cernunnos, and I am struggling to see the connection. Does anybody know what it is, or otherwise, would anybody be opposed to my removing that particular External link? FULBERT (talk) 12:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

It's actually an internal link (a "WP:See Also"). It seems to have very little (if any) direct connection to the Cauldron ahem, Cernunnos as topic, so please go ahead and remove. Be Bold! If anyone disagrees with the removal, they can discuss the matter here, per WP:BRD. Haploidavey (talk) 12:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Modern culture section

As usual, this slowly filled with unreferenced entries in list form, mostly fantasy stuff or mere mentions/adaptations of the subject's name or appearance. The name and appearance of a thing are not the thing itself. As none of the section content was relevant to the actual topic, I removed the whole thing. Haploidavey (talk) 07:42, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Could we perhaps create a new page called Cernunnos in popular culture and put them all there, in the style of Ares in popular culture? I agree the content wasn't relevant to this article, but I feel like there'd still be a place for it in a dedicated article on the topic. --Aabicus (talk) 21:04, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

@Aabicus, I can think of no reason not to do that. But the same would apply there as applies here: no "mere mentions" by name; meaningful content only, and every entry would have to be reliably sourced by third parties, have a reputable author and publisher etc. That's the main issue here. There are many such articles and almost all started as dumps for left-overs - unsourced material from other, more "serious" articles such as this one. Years after, most of them remain unsourced dumps - like Ares in popular culture, a very lengthy list article made up from primary source material supplied by enthusiasts, without a single secondary source or inline citation or reference - as I pointed out (with mild sarcasm) on the talk-page of that article. It's just not what the encyclopedia is for. Ironic, perhaps, as there's maybe twice as much material in Ares in popular culture as there is in Ares. Haploidavey (talk) 07:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

You might find the following useful: Popular culture sections (sourcing)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Archive_63#popular-culture-RfC

Wikipedia:Trivial mentions; another essay

WP:Trivia