Talk:Caterpillar Club

Golden Caterpillar

Much of the main article is repeated under 'Golden Caterpillar'.62.25.109.195 (talk) 13:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

For the record, that article has now been merged into this one.   Will Beback  talk  22:15, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Pioneering parachutists

I have added parachutists prior to the Caterpillar Club's foundation. Presently, the article seems aimed at crediting Irvin Aeronautics as pretty much inventing parachuting. Certainly, there is ambiguity that needs to be addressed. For instance, German pilots in 1918 have no trouble parachuting, yet early 1920s airplanes suddenly have the parachutes built into them, rendering them unsuccessful.

Is there a parachutist editor in the community willing to take this on?

Georgejdorner (talk) 06:27, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Membership requirements?

I agree with Georgejdorner that the article needs more work if it is to avoid becoming a parachute advertisment. This section details the more unusual escapes and should be renamed to "Notable joining methods" or similar. It seems unlikely that Tom Hughes membership was authenticated by the German parachute maker and what appears to be much more recent membership authentication elsewhere should go elsewhere. JRPG (talk) 10:55, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I have asked the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ohio whether there is any objection to removing them from the article and think we should give some attention to removing spam. JRPG (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Multiple issues with article

As many problems as this article has, I am reluctant to tag it for deletion because it has the potential to develop into a fascinating text. Therefore, I am listing the problems I note, in hopes of knowledgeable editor(s) improving the article:.

SPAM: Article linked to advertising website as reference.

CITATIONS NEEDED: Present citations need to be reviewed for reliability. Additional citations are needed for rest of article.

NPOV: Article was entirely centered on British, American, and Canadian members until I dabbed in "Pre-Caterpillar Club" section. It should either expand coverage to other nationalities or explain why CC membership is restricted to "Anglos".

EXPERT NEEDED: Actuality and factuality checked by a parachutist editor would add credibility to this beleaguered article.

CLEANUP: Clear, unambiguous writing would clarify the text.

Georgejdorner (talk) 17:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose deletion There may be many things wrong with this article but it is a valid subject and should be in Wikipedia. It has none of the characteristics of an article that should be deleted, merely one that should be edited. JMcC (talk) 17:42, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
• oppose deletion Agree with JmcC. Needs work. Thread #Golden Caterpillar replicates previous thread but this is easily fixed. Noteworthy and interesting topic.Buster Seven Talk 18:47, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Erm ..don't think we're anywhere near a article for deletion discussion yet, nor would it take place on this page. Excellent topic but the implementation is nowhere near the standards required so we're close to starting with a clean sheet anyway.

JRPG (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

• oppose deletion Although I have retired as a contributor to main space, I have been asked my opinion about this article. There is much to be said about the Caterpillar Club. The problem as I understand it, is that it was started by a parachute company and could therefore be considered commercial. The fact is that anybody who has saved their life using a parachute can qualify, regardless of the supplier of the parachute. My father was a military man who ejected from a Gloster Meteor Mk.8, using a Martin Baker ejector seat. He is a very proud member of this (virtually non-existent) club and he wears the insigna proudly. It is a constant reminder for him, that he was lucky to get out alive. If desired I can supply his membership certificate for the article. The article is about an esoteric subject but IMHO deserves a place in Wikipedia, on its own. Should anybody need any help, feel free to contact me. JHvW 17:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

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CLARIFICATION: I did NOT list this article for deletion because I DO share the views of editor 83.160.198.125 about it remaining in Wikipedia. Just not in its present abortionate form. The subject deserves a better article; I lack the expertise to supply it.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Citations

I've a nasty feeling that much of the text comes from here and won't meet verification standards or copyright requirements. I'll have a look around obituaries and also see if I can find a Blackpool contact. JRPG (talk) 17:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

FWIW, I just searched the Proquest newspaper archive for ["Caterpillar Club" parachute]. That gets 129 hits, mostly obituaries. The only piece I see that's about the club itself is: "Lives tied by silken thread" Daily Mail. London (UK): Apr 4, 2000. pg. 64. It's actually a Q&A column which devotes about 300 words to a question about the club. I'll add info and citations from it when I have a chance.   Will Beback  talk  20:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Looks useful. Having got through the various promotions type materials in "More about the clubs", it looks as if there are about 100,000 potential entrants though fortunately the vast majority won't be notable. Obituaries are likely to be the best bet and may give more detail than previously available. I was able to link a 15" shell fired by HMS Malaya with its somewhat ungrateful recipient, Genoa Cathedral by this method.

From that source:

• By the outbreak of World War II in 1939, membership had risen to 4,000. The UK roll now stands at a staggering 32,034, a very large proportion being Armed Services personnel who have been forced to bale out of stricken aircraft, often over enemy territory.

It doesn't mention total international membership.   Will Beback  talk  22:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Assuming NPOV - or even systemic bias - simply because the article (and/or the club) focus on "Anlgos" is a bit of a leap. Therefore I propose that the NPOV tag is removed, while encouraging globalization of coverage. Rich Farmbrough, 22:12, 26th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).

Please also note http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Club. Rich Farmbrough, 22:14, 26th day of January in the year 2011 (UTC).

My main concern is about the article becoming an advert for specific parachute makes and lack of secondary sourcing. I don't claim expertise.

So what is this subject about? A very interesting article could be written about special circumstances in which people have escaped at lethal height from crashing aircraft -who the press would regard as members -but the article's focus would be escapees i.e. entirely different from a description of pins and ribbons. JRPG (talk) 23:07, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The source I've cited above says the honor only goes to those who've been saved by a parachute made or designed by Irvin. If so, that should be specified in the lead.   Will Beback  talk  02:12, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

The source also discusses two cases in which membership was refused. In one case a pilot jumped without a parachute and landed in a snowbank. In another case a plane carrying skydivers crashed after one of their chutes tangled with the plane. The skydivers were not admitted, since they intended to jump, but the pilot was awarded membership. It also says that a file is kept by Irvin on every member of the club. That must take a considerable volume of space if 32,000 membership were awarded in the UK alone.   Will Beback  talk  02:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I've emailed the text of the piece to user:JRPG, and I can do the same for anyone else interested. It's a more complex issue than I want to pursue. However I'll note that I now see that it was written by an employee of Irvin Aerospace.   Will Beback  talk  02:20, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that Will.JRPG (talk) 12:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Merge with Parachute?

I wonder if people could have a good look at the parachute article which appears to have a different view of parachute history. Unfortunately it also has verification problems and is already long, but it may be better to add a redirect and merge some of the information.
JRPG (talk) 13:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

For 32,000 people and their near-and-dear, I bet surviving an escape from a doomed plane was notable. I suggest that, considering its obvious notability in obituaries, a short article at this title is the best outcome. We should just make it clear that it's an award given by one manufacturer in (mostly) one country. It's a notable, yet minor honor. (The real 'honor' is in surviving.)   Will Beback  talk  13:34, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Will, that's also fine by me but the article I had expected was much more along the lines of this ejection history website. This website confirms what the Daily Telegraph obituary implied i.e. catapillar club became a generic term -where the emphasis is on the escape rather than the award. I would expect every WW2 ace to be a member but the individual details may be very interesting. JRPG (talk) 15:08, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Merging the article with Parachute is in my opinion not correct. I do find it heart warming that you have looked at Mike Bennett's website. The Caterpillar Club is a club for people who have saved their life by using a parachute (in whatever way). In that respect the observation is that most WW2 flying aces who saved their life by using a parachute are probably all members of the Caterpillar Club is probably correct. But what is the point? They have qualified for membership. I would be interested to see what would happen to the article on the Mile high club. That the Caterpillar Club is virtually non-existent in most countries is irrelevant. To suggest that the club is restricted to one country is also ludicrous. If you look at the above website you will see that that people from many different countries have become members of the Caterpillar Club. The rest of my comments can be found a few subheadings up. Please do not remove move this article or merge it. It deserves a place by itself. JHvW 17:37, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi JHvW and thanks for your comments. The objection is spam and shortage of good sources and the article history suggests it got hijacked some time after you started it. I see you're removing the spam and focus on Irvin and I've contacted the Blackpool club, (catapillar membership not Mile high :)) to see if I can get some sources. On a personal note, my interest is far more in unusual escape stories than in the insignia but that's not the subject of the article. It can have links though.

JRPG (talk) 20:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Well in taht case you may be interested in a story that you can probably find on Mike Bennett's website. There is a pilot who used his ejector seat underwater and saved his life that way. It is probably needless to say that this is not what ejector seats were designed for. The pilot will obviously not qualify for the Caterpillar Club. My thought is that he we probably not qualify for the Goldfish Club either. Also I have made some remarks concerning the tags above the article, those were removed (see the page log).JHvW 22:15, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

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NOTE: Before my addition of German parachutists in World War I, only Americans and Brits were mentioned in this article. There is no mention whatsoever of any other nationality. The fact that the article doesn't mention any other nationalities may be ludicrous, but it is true. Either mention of other nationalities, or reason(s) given for only Brits and Americans being mentioned should be necessary for removal of the NPOV tag. Otherwise, if the tag is removed, there is no spur to straighten out this issue.

Georgejdorner (talk) 20:19, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

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Were there retroactive memberships?

There were successful bailouts from disabled planes before the official founding of the Caterpillar Club; some dozens of German pilots saved their lives that way. A partial listing appears at http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/PROJECT/Parachutes/1914_18.htm. However, at present we are back to an article that leads the reader to believe (erroneously) that successful parachute use began with the Irvin parachute.

Georgejdorner (talk) 05:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Removal of clean-up tags

The article has improved. It is not great but it is better than it was. Is it appropriate to remove the tags yet? JMcC (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Lou Sander (talk) 17:50, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

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Many thanks to contributors for the improvement. I posted the tags before; now I have pulled them.

But please don't relax; the article could use more work, folks.

Georgejdorner (talk) 23:42, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

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