Talk:Caste system in Kerala/Archives/2020/July

Insult

It is not so fair to portray a community or a group as slaves.It is very clear throughout the article that someone needs to glorify their caste status by portraying others as very lowest and even trying to compare them with Animals.I am pretty sure that there are certain guidelines for wikipedia to write articles with good manners whether it is sourced or unsourced.

Relevant policies and guidelines are WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED. - Sitush (talk) 01:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Is this relevant in lead section

I have added this in lead, Is this relevant , would like to know

In Southern India only in Kerala there arose warrior lineages approximate to the Kshatriya model. These warriors never lost their identity as Sudras. Nayar Kshatriya hood is based on special ecological conditions and it is a case of elevated sudra to Kshatriya status

Byasa Banerjee (talk) 06:04, 3 July 2020 (UTC)Byasa Banerjee

Keep it, please. it'll make someone calm at least. Outlander^07@talk 16:50, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Ezhava slaves

It is worth to add the references from Rev E.V John stating Nambudiri Brahmins along with other upper castes had Ezhavas also as their slaves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.97.187.124 (talk) 06:42, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Deep revert

Are there any legitimate reasons why this article should not be reverted to this version? It seems to have become a mess due to competing POV edits. - Sitush (talk) 04:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I have gone through it manually. Not sure I have caught everything but will do another check. - Sitush (talk) 10:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sitush:

Please check the statement by Robin Jeffrey "... a Nair can approach but not touch a Namboodiri Brahmin: a Chovan [Ezhava] must remain thirty-six paces off, and a Pulayan slave ninety-six steps distant. A Chovan must remain twelve steps away from a Nair, and a Pulayan sixty-six steps off, and a Parayan some distance farther still. 'A Syrian Christian may touch a Nair (though this is not allowed in some parts of the country) but the latter may not eat with each other.' Pulayans and Parayars, who are the lowest of all, can approach but not touch, much less may they eat with each other."

It seems the statement was purposefully removed by someone from the article also look into the this by Rajendra Prasad 'Rajendra Prasad, an Indian historian, said that the Syrian Christians took ritual baths after physical contact with lower castes and also the Nairs'

It is clear that the Syrian Christians observed ritual pollution and I think the inconsistency between the above statements should be clarified. Outlander^07@talk 14:25, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

As you say, we already mention the Syrian Christians. Just put an ellipsis in the quote - the thing is already long & complex and at the point in the article we are talking of Hindu castes. We then discuss how even non-Hindus were drawn into the system. - Sitush (talk) 20:09, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Is this any use? I am on a mobile phone & it makes things tricky. I have a copy of the Jeffrey book somewhere on my shelves but can't spot it. Distinctly remember buying a second-hand copy when I was working on Nair but I have at least 2,000 books here and no system for locating them! - Sitush (talk) 03:04, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Found the book. Check out p 33 & around pp 197-198. Syrian Christians definitely need their own paragraph. - Sitush (talk) 10:45, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Agree need a separate paragraph. Jeffrey mentions about the disputes between Nairs and Syrians over their social status here, also consider using this to expand it a little. Outlander^07@talk 13:56, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Great! Glad we agree because I seem to be in disputes everywhere here at the moment :( Is there any chance of you writing something? Even create a citation is a real pain on a phone. No worries if you would rather not - I can do it but it will be tedious. - Sitush (talk) 16:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, no, sorry. We have already said a lot about the S Christians - it is most of the opening paragraph of the section. - Sitush (talk) 09:01, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

It isn't an inconsistency. The missionary didn't say the SCs practised everywhere. Even if it was, per WP:NPOV we would show the differences of opinion in reliable sources. I really don't care where the Nairs were in relation to the SCs because that is just trivial point-scoring & adds noting to the article (although I can see why Nair caste warriors would want to make a big deal of it because they are forever trying to use this place to boost their ego - we should not fall for that). - Sitush (talk) 09:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

O.K. As you said, we should keep the differences of opinion. Outlander^07@talk 11:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sitush:, the article should also have information about Sambandam. If you agree, which section should it belong? 2402:3A80:57C:EB6D:11D9:2881:DB49:DC0E (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't see why it should. You will have to explain your rationale. It is linked in See also. - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for not explaing it previously. There is also caste discrimination and heirarchies among the castes that follow sambandam. Brahmins do not touch their nair sambandam wives during day or eat with them. I thought it fits into the subject of caste system. 2402:3A80:563:5A8E:85E6:EB31:A642:724C (talk) 19:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

No need to apologise. I wasn't aware of that aspect of sambandam and would have to read up about it. - Sitush (talk) 19:41, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I updated the article specifically the section of ritual pollution from the book "The Nayars today" by CJ Fuller, Cambridge University press and "Slavery in Kerala" by Adoor Ramachandran Nair.--2402:3A80:567:8992:C5D5:D819:91AD:692F (talk) 18:29, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

• "The Nayars today" by CJ Fuller -- https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yQM4AAAAIAAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false,
• "Slavery in Kerala" by Adoor Ramachandran Nair -- https://books.google.co.in/books?id=03R1JWXcVYIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false --2402:3A80:567:8992:C5D5:D819:91AD:692F (talk) 18:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sitush: User:Byasa Banerjee updated nairs as kshatriyas in the page. Are nairs kshatriyas? 2402:3A80:56B:B95D:89DE:5EBA:67BE:8F99 (talk) 18:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

They didn't actually update them - arose warrior lineages approximate to the Kshatriya model. These warriors never lost their identity as Sudras. I suspect it may be copied from somewhere & will check that but, in fairness to Byasa Banerjee, the statements do no say that the Nairs were/are kshatriya. - Sitush (talk) 01:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Cannot say Nairs are Kshatriyas. Nambuthiris considered all others as Shudras and Untouchables including Samantha Kshatriyas, Ambalavasis, Nairs and below. Nairs were regarded as a Martial race by British at various times. Performed Kshatriya duties but considered as other by Nambuthiris. From Nairs some were known by Samanthans or feudal elites like Vellatiri,samoothiri,Kavalappara etc.The rest served as Army men to the various kingdoms and engaged in other duties. Even samantha kshatriyas were not of pure kshatriya origin.Samanthans and Samantha kshatriyas togather ruled various kingdoms.Samanthas used to perform various rituals to attain kshatriya status, but it was temporary.It is mentioned in the book 'Ivory throne' by Manu S Pillai. Anthropologists cannot even determine the diffrences of Samanthans and Samantha kshatriyas.Overall the both were regarded as Shudras by Nambudiris.The title 'Varma' has to do nothing with Kshatriya lineage in kerala caste system.Even Samanthan Nairs like Samoothiri lineage now known by the title 'Varma'.In travancore the now titular Maharajah Moolam tirunal Ramavarma married Gopika Nair, and now known by Gopika Varma. LordImhothep (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Correction, Moolam Tirunal Ramavarma married Dr Girija Thankachi. Pooruruttathi Thirunal Marthanda Varma married Ammachi Panapillai Amma Srimathi Gopika Nair alias Kalaimamani Gopika Marthanda Varma or Gopikavarma. 2402:8100:3916:CA64:95FB:70CB:BF80:806B (talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I never said Nairs are Kshatriyas, Please any one edit as required Byasa Banerjee (talk) 06:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)Byasa Banerjee

The Nairs were the Kshatriyas of Kerala. Samanthas were of Nair origin. That is why the Kshatriya society included some sub-castes of Nairs among them. See here [1]. 2402:8100:3916:CA64:95FB:70CB:BF80:806B (talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)