Talk:Butlins Skegness/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Bob1960evens (talk) 12:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I will review this article.

I have read it through several times initially. Can I suggest that you read it out loud, or better still, get a friend to read it out. There are a number of places when extra or repeated words occur, and several where the grammer or tense is awkward. I will review it section by section, making notes as I go, and leaving the lead until last. My first impressions are that the article does not need too much attention to pass, but the lead is probably still a little short. Bob1960evens (talk) 12:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Please note any changes made with the appropriate comment.

Holiday Camp conception

• used his last £5 does not seem to be supported by its ref, which says he left Canada with only £4/12/-, and paid £2 for the stall, with the rest on hire purchase.

The source isn't great for specific details and frequently gets them wrong but is confirms general facts. £5 is the amount used in a number of sources including the CBC, and Scott which I've added in support.  Partly done - Dacre P. 63 says the HP was used to buy other aspects of the stall such as the stock. I've reworded to clarify that only some of the £5 was used to pay for the stall.  Partly done

• Butlin soon had fixed sites needs some clarification. Fixed sites for what?

 Done

• a set of Stalls in Barry Island. If Stalls are just ordinary fairground stalls, it does not need capitalising. If they are something else, which justifies a capital, this needs explaining.

Just a Typo  Done

Refs

• This article seems to be using several different styles of refs. Personally, I like the Harvard type notation for books, which you have used for those in the bibliography. However, there are also a number of books which use longform style. Refs 8 and 10 seem to be particularly confused. 8 appears to be linked to 10, and 10 is linked to the text, but both refer to p.38. I think this and most of the other books (ie those with ISBNs) should be moved to the bibliography, and then cited in short form, so that the style is consistent.

 Partly done I've fixed the 8 and 10 problem. However I think the larger short form/long form mix is still going to exist as long as some of the references are Web or Newspaper ones. I don't see a Policy or guideline that advises against this mix, and indeed I've just had a similar Butlins article pass GA with a similar mix. Could we hold this back till after GA is achieved and use footnote grouping to separate out the short form references from the others?

The guideline is WP:Citing Sources#Style variation, which suggests "Citations within each Wikipedia article should follow a consistent style." While I agree that web and newspaper refs make it tricky, I find it unusual to have books cited in both styles in the same article. On what basis is one book in the bibliography and another one not? (It also makes the article a lot easier to edit if the text is not cluttered up with large amounts of bibliographic material). Hmmm...  :-)

I think you are overstating the intent of Style Variation. It specifically applies to mixing parenthical (harvard) and footnote referencing styles. Or using different formatting of different references so that the information is presented in a different order in each reference. Mixing shortened refs and long refs does not appear to come into this as long as the first use of a ref is long - That said, your last point makes sense, so I have followed you advice and tided the references up with footnote grouping although possibly bibliography could now become a subsection of references to look tidier - still Done

Sorry if you think I overstated the point. I only suggested that the books should be moved to the bibliography, so that the citing of them was consistent.

Butlin's Camp

• First para says hired the architect Harold Ridley Hooper, to create plans, while second says Butlin designed the camp himself. This needs clarification. Which bits did each do?  Done
• An advertisement costing £500 was placed in the Daily Express, announced the opening of the camp... is awkward. If you keep the "was", "announced" should be "announcing", or you could replace the "was" by "and". Following sentence suffers from same sort of problem, as do others in this section. Done
• Norman Bradford should be referred to as Bradford, after first usage, rather than Norman, as required by WP:MOS, and as you have done for Butlin. Done

Wartime use

I have made a few tweaks, but generally ok for style.

Later history

• Situated in the hotel's "Palm Court" needs clarifying. The use of quotes suggests you need to know what a "Palm Court" is, in order to understand it. Was it a lounge / bar / garden / courtyard? So, in the hotel's "Palm Court" lounge (if it was a lounge) would make it much easier to understand.

 Done

I have added "function room". You don't want people clicking on the Palm Court wikilink to find out what one is, and not reading the rest of your article.

• At the same time, a chairlift system was installed as well. Suggest A chairlift system was installed at the same time or somesuch.  Done
• However arguably the most significant is that the camp was also home to the UK's first commercial monorail which opened in 1965. Try expanding it a little to make it read better. The final sentence of this para also needs reworking, and there are three refs to three sentences, which are all the same. One placed at the end should be sufficient.

 Done

• The Redcoat in Charge. Is Redcoat in Charge a formal position? If not, it needs a lowercase "c".

 Not done the source gives it as a formal position (in the abbreviated form Redcoat (I/C))

• to wrap up the competition needs an encyclopaedic term. Done

• I have now checked refs 29 on this, which suggests the competition had already finished, and they only just evacuated the building in time. Ref 28 says they abandoned the competition to evacuate. The text suggests they carried on to the end of the competition despite the smoke, and then left. Needs clarification.  Done

• the Ingoldmells hotel was moved inside the fence. Presumably, the fence was moved rather than the hotel. If so, it could be clearer.

 Done

• a new indoor "Funsplash" swimming pool. As with Palm Court. Is "Funsplash" just a name or does it imply something we should know? Clarify. Done
• facilities such as Stages, Bars,Restaurants, Shops and amusements do not need capitals.  Done

General issues

• Armoury, Compere, Swimming Pool and T'Pau link to disambiguation pages, not to articles.  Done
• There are a number of issues with capitalisation. So we have Ingoldmells Hotel/hotel and Redcoat/redcoat. They need to be consistent, and I would suggest capitals, as they function as formal titles.

Capitalised as a formal title - also removed caps for "hotel" on the occasions it is used outwith being a title.  Done

I have also been through and made Butlin's / Butlins consistent.

Had to undo sorry, Butlin's Ltd only became Butlins Ltd in 1998 so the consisent naming for tha majority of sources should be the other way around. I think Historical treatment of alternative names is covered under Wikipedia:COMMONNAME#Treatment_of_alternative_names where historical context is suggested as to be retained.

I'm a little confused now, as we have Butlins in the pre-war section, Butlin's in the post-war section, Butlins again more recently, and both in the Influence section, referring to events in the early 1960s. I'm not going to hold up the review for it, but you might like to check that this is definitely right.

Thanks missed those ones, I have added in the Apostrophe where historically accurate and ensured redirects from "Butlin's Skegness" and "Funcoast World" exist as they are potential search terms.

Broad in its coverage

• I think it could do with a couple of sentences on its current size. The Butlins Student Manual mentions 350,000 visitors, 70,000 day visitors and 80,000 caravaners. It also mentions it employs 1,200 people, has 40 Redcoats, and has 7,130 beds. I would never have guessed numbers this big from the article, and 1,200 employees must have a significant economic benefit in the town of Skegness.

 Partly done I've added some of this information, let me know what you think whether it needs further coverage or whether there's enough there?

Lead

• The lead should introduce the subject and summarise its main contents. It needs to be expanded a little. For instance, sections 2 and 3 are summarised in a single sentence covering both.

 Done a little expanded and reworked - let me know if it needs more.

Formal review

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   See comments above

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   See comment about current size and usage

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

All issues have now been addressed. Please see the note on the use of Butlin's / Butlins. An interesting article on a subject I knew little about. Congratulations. I am passing it. Bob1960evens (talk) 13:46, 8 June 2011 (UTC)