Talk:Brandon Teena/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Archive 7

Find-a-Grave reliability

This site does not appear to meet Wikipedia standards for reliability, except for the sort of content that is currently cited--the photograph of an actual gravestone. I imagine the anonymous proponent of adding a reference to Lisa Lambert's page wants to quote or reference the line "Lisa has often been linked, mistakenly, with Teena Brandon as a romantic partnership." However, it is easy to see that all of the written content on the site is added in amateur "self-published" fashion with no fact-checking facilities and virtually no editorial oversight. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources for our policy. See Find-a-Grave FAQ "Where do you get your information?" and related exchanges on the site's FAQ page to see why the written submissions on the site do not qualify under our standards. As the provider of the information on Lisa Lambert's page is identified only as "Rocky," the page is not even suitable as evidence of the opinion of a particular person (who may or not be significant to the case).—DCGeist 17:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Seconded - I would agree that the verifiability of 'find-a-grave' is in question, especially when you consider that 'Rocky' is also the self-assigned name of the 63. anon posting here (e.g this thread). -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Owch! Thirded, so - Alison ☺ 18:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Finally ever can agree that a less than reliable source should be removed. Now we can discuss the other ones that are also not reliable. So far, as I see it, the only reliable and verifiable source here is Jones book. Also, let us discuss how Brandon is identified within Jones book.

To gay, lesbian and transexual people, it was more than just a hate crime, it was more than just a problem with police: "Brandon Teena" was fast becoming an icon........ Now, all of a sudden, "Brandon Teena" was putting transgenders on the map. Of course, it was of no concern to them that there was no such name as Brandon Teena. pp.246-247

Also, since it was mentioned, a GRAVESTONE is something to cite as well. I can make about 500 pictures of this gravestone for you. And it happens to agree with Jones book.

The article already says that there are reports that Brandon never used the full name 'Brandon Teena'. Numerous reports contradict that account (as cited ad nauseam), so the issue is addressed in the article. As far as your representation of Jones' book as the 'only verifiable and reliable source', those kind of comments combined with the ever-shifting, belligerent and repetitive nature of your arguments lead me to believe even more that you are not here for any constructive purpose. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 03:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Show me one place I have been belligerent. I have yet to see a single source document that meets the burden of proof. You said Carolyn Gage's article simply does not meet the standards to be cited as a valid source on WP, in terms of notability, undue weight, and verifiability. I am trying to point out, neither do most of the other cites in here. IMDB? Find A Grave? The GLBTQ dictionary? How are they any more scolarly than Gage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.119 (talk • contribs)

• You're not helping matters by not signing your comments - I'll tell you that much. It's seriously hard to follow and, looking at the conversation above, I've missed out on lots of your points. - Alison ☺ 05:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

You should stand behind your comments, you know the kinds of edits you've made and I'm not wasting a single keystroke reporting to you how you've been behaving any more. You fundamentally misunderstand 'the burden of proof', and as you are presented with the cold facts, you continue to evade and redirect the discussion into new areas.

Ah you see - now we're talking about Carolyn Gage? Now we're NOT advocating for the gravesite data web site? Now we're NOT insisting there was no relationship? Or we ARE insisting there was no relationship WHILE we insist that a source contradicting that is the only valid source? I'm sorry, your disruptive and unfocused conduct is obvious. It's called trolling. And since I don't feed trolls, I'm going into 'ignore' mode unless you post something of real value to respond to. And re: Gage: Read my comments [1] and you'll see why I viewed that essay as non-notable and not representative of a viewpoint that has 'due weight' for a bio - to say nothing of a bio of a murder victim. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Seems more an effort to me to show that not all the cites are good ones. It should be noted that all this information is being gathered after the fact and has changed hands many times. More often than not when this happens, facts are lost and misunderstood. In fact, isn't #4 simply a commentary? I may be wrong as I may have misread. But seems that would not be a valide source either under wiki policy.Faytay2002 01:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Controversy over whether Brandon was found in Lisa's Bed

As for Brandon being found "in" Lisa's bed...

Brandon lay on her back on the lower part of the bed, her legs dangling over the edge and her hands bloody. She was fully clothed, but her sweatshirt showed a large area of blood that had soaked through from her abdomen. Her white socks were pink from watered-down blood soaked up from the floor. Lifting her sweatshirt, officers saw a jagged wound, apparently made by a knife. Further up, a small bullet hole was evident under her chin, surrounded by gunpowder residue. That meant she'd been shot at close range. A fracture on her skull indicated that she'd been hit with a blunt object. Of the three bodies, hers was the most ravaged, so it was possible that she had been the primary target.

Lisa Lambert, 24, was partly under the covers, but there was a bullet wound to her right eye. Blood also ran out of her mouth and another wound was found in her stomach. It appeared that's she'd been sitting up in bed when shot.

Taken from www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/brandon/1.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs).

very confusing

i just started reading this article with no previous knowledge of this person and i found the article to be INCREDIBLY confusing.

i read the general info at the top of the page and then i went down to The Rape and it was really confusing. it uses the peoples' last names only with no indication of what their gender is [genders are?] as though i already know about these people. if i don't want to know about Brandon Teena and only want to read about the crime then i'm going to read the section called The Rape and not bother to read other sections to know about the people who raped her/him (another confusing part was Brandon/Teena's gender, i didn't figure that out until i read the discussion page)

so please make it more understandable for everyone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.151.29.175 (talk) 00:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

I am as confused. Why is the term "Brandon Teena" used when this person never went by that name? Isn't that being disrespectful of the dead to call them something they never called themselves? Is this being done out of respect for this individual or to assist in an adjenda for a group using this person? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs)

The citations make clear that he used the name Brandon to refer to himself, and on WP, the style guide dictates that we use 'self-identification' for transgendered individuals. There's no agenda. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You said it yourself "he used the name Brandon to refer to himself". He went by Brandon, not Brandon Teena. Why is this article labeling him as Brandon Teena then? You are adopting a name placed on this person post life and not keeping with actual facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs)

The citations clearly state that he used the name 'Brandon Teena', not just 'Brandon'. Just one offhand example: In his late teens, Teena began passing as a male and changed his name to Brandon Teena [2]. Your objection appears unfounded. Can you provide a citation (in other words, 'actual facts') to contradict these that says he didn't go by 'Brandon Teena', but only 'Brandon'? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Your citation is not a true reference source. Please show me one single citation that states anyone having actually known Brandon and him actually using the name "Brandon Teena". If there is a single verifiable source than I will concede the point. If not, then this page is being based on nothing more than hearsay and not facts. In the book "All she wanted" authored by A. Jones, the first work done about Brandon, not a single refrence is given to the term Brandon Teena. Not by family or friends.

'Not a true reference source'? The sources meet WP criteria in that they are notable, verifiable, not original research, etc. Any other requirements you might place above that are pretty irrelevant to the issue of proper WP sourcing. Actually having known Brandon is not required of a source. Please see WP:RS. Thanks! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As a kindness, here's another source meeting WP:RS:

Brandon Teena was born a girl. Later Teena decided to change sexual identification, and began to pass as a young man by the name of Brandon Teena." JRank

I would suggest your claim that Brandon Teena didn't use the name 'Brandon Teena' needs to be cited, since it conflicts with numerous notable sources. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, a cursory glance gives this, then there's this non-sympathetic article which states that Brandon used the name "Brandon Teena". It's also mentioned in the Amazon editorial review. As with these things, it's very hard to find some sort of primary, "official" source for something which was ostensibly a pseudonym. I think we can all agree, however, that the full name, "Brandon Teena" was in reasonably common usage by a number of people at the time and it was largely through the rape charge filed that Brandon was 'outed' - Alison^☺ 22:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Using that same logic, my niece wrote a paper years ago for Sunday School. Did you know the first elephant on Noah’s arc was named Ralph? By your standards this must be the truth since it was published in the church's bulletin. As I said once before, show me one instance where Brandon referred to himself as Brandon Teena. You can't, because he didn't. If he had his mother Joann would have mentioned it to Jones along with the long list of Alias names he did use. (Tena Ray, Billy Brenson, and Brandon) As for common usage, by whom? After he was dead perhaps. Now, as for the rape charge, look at the court documents on that. At the interview with Laux the official county record has a signature from Brandon. Anyone care to guess how it was signed?Are you going to dispute the very person we are talking about as to what name was being used? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

• I don't think it's fair to make a comparison between your niece's Sunday School paper and IMDB/Amazon/various newspapers/etc. As already pointed out, as a pseudonym, it's highly unlikely that there's a written example of his own usage, and requesting same is unfair. The court documents, of course, were signed, "Teena Brandon", which was his legal name. I don't see the point you're trying to make there - Alison^☺ 00:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make is that these so called credible sources are not so credible. They are published on the web, but so are many other things that are not correct. My niece felt she was a credible source because she had heard her story in Sunday school. We all know what that story was worth, but to an 8 year old it was as good as gold. I am not trying to create hard feelings, but rather point out that something here is terrible wrong. Bad information is being distributed and touted as credible. And yet I have seen nothing that makes any of it truly credible. Thanks again for your time and patience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• I think the problem here is we have differing definitions on what constitutes "truly credible". I'm not entirely sure how "bad information" is being distributed, other than the possibility of major sources assuming the good faith of others. I think the weight of evidence that we have access to leans towards "Brandon Teena", given that the sources are reasonably credible and that it was not a legal name but a pseudonym which are, by their nature, somewhat hazy and undefinable. What would constitute "truly credible" in your book? - Alison^☺ 00:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How can good faith be used as truly credible? Honestly, where do you draw the line? I can assure you those articles were written by people who knew less about Brandon than they did the man in the moon. I have seen this "Brandon Teena" name grow over the past 11 years. I know where it came from and it wasn't from Brandon. But then again, I too am not a credible source either. So what we do know for sure is Brandon did go by Brandon. On the hospital admit form in Falls City the name Tena Ray was originally written in and then changed to Teena. There are numerous court doc's with the names Billy Brenson and Tena Ray. But still no "Brandon Teena". So why is it being used as gospel here? You used IMDB as a source earlier, and yet the very documentary covered by IMDB is not allowed to be sited here. On A&E "American Justice" they say the name "Brandon Teena" was never known to have been used by Brandon. This is the same show with his mother and numerous friends and authors providing the very information being used. But I guess they too are not credible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

Here: in addition to your 'American Justice' reference I found what appears to be another cite that claims the name was applied posthumously (Jared Hohlt of Slate):

"In the film--as in life--Brandon (who never used the last name Teena; he was called "Brandon Teena" only posthumously) had already been wooing young women as a man in his hometown of Lincoln before arriving in Falls City (population 5,000) in late 1993." [3]

So on the basis of these cites I wouldn't object to including something about this contradictory set of claims in the article. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

• Ok - I certainly agree that there's confusion over the name, esp. given that it was never his official 'legal' name. However, it's the one he's most known by and there's enough reputable publications out there that have used it. I agree that this should be noted in the article. I'm going to be bold and add a footnote to that effect, linked from the first mention of his name. Let me know what you think - Alison^☺ 03:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
• Ok - done. How does that read? - Alison^☺ 03:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, thank you again. I hope I have not created any hard feelings here.

Not at all, and likewise I hope I have not done the same. I am glad we could find reliable sources to back up your personal knowledge of this issue. Be well! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone continues to remove the note we all agreed upon. I have reverted it several time to get it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• Indeed. Note that both of you need to watch for WP:3RR - Alison ☺ 06:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Uncited edits and anonymous editors

This article seems to have attracted a number of anon editors, some claiming personal knowledge of the article's subject, many of whom have little if any prior involvement with WP. One recent editor has has significantly added and modified content without explanation or factual citation, and that's a problem. Edits by single-issue or 'role' accounts are held to the same standards as everyone else, and personal knowledge is not valid encyclopedic sourcing - so PLEASE cite your edits with sources meeting WP:RS if you would prefer them not be reverted outright as unsupported claims. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked some research and have reverted a few pieces I couldn't corroborate with the known facts of the case. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This whole article is a mess. It is poorly written and not very accurate. This is a subject I have been researching for a long time and am confident in saying that I know a lot about. I did site my source, and yet you replaced my well written statement with the mess that was there before. I have to wonder why I should spend the time in trying to correct it if you're just going to erase what I add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs)

• Hi there. Are you the same editor as 63.215.29.115 (talk · contribs) above? - Alison^☺ 03:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alison- No I am not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs)

• Ah, okay. Just wondering 'coz you both say 'site' when you mean cite ... :) - Alison^☺ 03:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that.

While we are talking about changes, might I ask where the information (cite) was found for the murders? It describes things that could not be. For instance, they asked Lisa where Brandon was and then found him hiding under the bed. Lisa had a water bed that rested on the floor. There was no place under that bed to hide unless you were perhaps a greased B-B. This is personal knowledge and the murder scene photos and report will verify this as well. This report talks about the water bed being punctured by a bullet and the carpet being soaked with water and blood. What is written is inaccurate. For proper cite (thanks Alison) you may look up the closing arguments of the prosecution made during the murder trials. They talk at length about the water bed.User:Rocky

or this:

There was a slight body under the bottom of the waterbed blankets, and as quickly as Brandon was found, Brandon was killed. 

http://www.justicejunction.com/judicial_injustice_brandon_teena.htm

There is something wrong with wikipedia style guidelines

When we take a person who is (almost certainly) genetically female, with female external genitalia and call that person "he", it is simply confusing and wrong. That someone self describes as something does not make it valid or appropriate for an encyclopedia. There is a fellow in Memphis who has some fame and he declares he is an alien from another planet. But his declaration of that, would not make it reasonable for wikipedia to recognize that silly claim. This article highlights a problem with wikipedia policy. I could see it if there were an intersex problem. I could even see it with a person who had external genitalia that had the appearance of the claimed sex. But when neither of these is the case, this is just silly.--Blue Tie 06:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not silly at all, and it's not just Wikipedia -- it's standard usage when referring to transgendered people. See the AP Style Guide among other sources. Susan Davis 07:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is silly in the context of describing his or her childhood before such a choice was made. I understand how the policy can be used to avoid being offensive to people like this particularly in the press, but in terms of a full life biography, something is not right here. It makes the article less clear and more confusing. --Blue Tie 08:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think whatever 'confusion' the 'childhood' section is causing you can be addressed with editing, rather than challenging the clear guidelines of WP:STYLE by demanding the 'genital test' and/or equating transgendered individuals with aliens (each are highly offensive suggestions, by the way). When I re-read the first paragraph of the 'childhood' section to look for 'confusing' information, I couldn't find anything nearly meeting your 'unreasonable' or 'silly' attribution. It currently reads:

Brandon Teena was native to Lincoln, Nebraska. Born in 1972, Brandon has been described as a ‘tomboy’ as a child. He was sexually assaulted by a male relative when he was young and, according to his mother, JoAnn Brandon, she and Brandon sought counseling in 1991.

Are you really claiming that that single sentence 'highlights a problem with Wikipedia policy'? If so, I patently and vehemently disagree. Escalating this to a 'matter of policy' is at seems to me more than a mite excessive. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you 'think' you're 'using' enough 'scare quotes'?

I stand by my comments on this earlier: Blue Tie's objection is perfectly reasonable and completely misplaced. There's no question of whether we should follow Wikipedia style guidelines on a Wikipedia page. The question is whether the guideline itself is correct, and that's a discussion worth having, but this isn't the place. The place is -- oh, Blue Tie has already posted there. Okay then. ~ CZeke 14:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's try to stay 'on topic', shall we? See you over there. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: I have raised my concern on the Manual of Style Talk page. --Blue Tie 05:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The childhood issue is simply dismissed. Check out Vladimir Lenin. He wasn't "Lenin" as a child. We describe his father as "Lenin's father". Oh noes! Logical inconsistency has struck. His father died before he became Lenin, so couldn't ever have been "Lenin's father". Etc. Grace Note 00:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Name etc

We do not need a note about the name on this page, any more than we do on any other page. We also do not need to point out that "transsexual" (not transgendered, please see previous discussion and do not change this back) means that he was born "anatomically female". Those readers who do not know what "transsexual" means can follow the link and it will become clear to them. Grace Note 00:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The term "Brandon Teena" was something that appeared after Brandon was dead. He never used that as a name and it was invented at a later time.User:Rocky

According to note 2, it is perfectly correct to refer to Brandon as Teena. They use this as reference numerious times. Matzner, Andrew. Teena, Brandon (1972-1993). GLBTQ Encyclopedia. Accessed 14 March 2007. Please note this is an accepted source and shows that the term Brandon Teena is not the only accepted name used. "Teena's life and death eventually became the subject of two critically acclaimed films" "By 1993 Teena had been involved in a string of relationships with women who were unaware of his birth sex." "Soon after arriving in Falls City, Teena, still living as a man, began dating Lana Tisdel. Following habit, he once again financed his generosity by forging checks. In the middle of December, local police arrested Teena," This seems to make the "Brandon Teena" tag as something that should be changed. If the GLBTQ is refering to him as she then why are we doing different? Is it so hard to understand that Brandon was both and went from she to he and back to she? User:Rocky

It's not hard to understand but it makes for a shit encyclopaedia article. So does antitransexual POV pushing. Grace Note 05:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Anon, please provide a link to verify the pronoun usage you claim GLBTQ is using, so it can be verified. Note also that the usage other sources employ does not determine WP usage - we use self-identification. However, your example uses the male pronoun so I don't think it's much of an issue. Also, check again. I think you'll find 'Brandon, Teena' and the use of 'Teena' in your example refers to Teena as a last name and supports the name Brandon Teena (the comma is important). Also - please cite the 'went from she to he and back to she' thing you said, because that's not my understanding of Brandon Teena's life experience before he was murdered. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"antitransexual POV pushing", Another way to get around the fact a fictional name was given to a real person, and some of us won't accept it. User:Rocky

I am not clear on the issue, but I think the solution is not so hard. It is appropriate that someone making a positive claim should validate it. Someone (I do not know who) is saying that a name being applied here did not actually exist. This is a negative claim and cannot be proven. But it serves as the basis for a request for verifiability. Can the use of the questioned name during the subject's lifetime be verified? If not, then a verified name should be used. --Blue Tie 11:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

As cited above: (Jared Hohlt of Slate)"In the film--as in life--Brandon (who never used the last name Teena; he was called "Brandon Teena" only posthumously) had already been wooing young women as a man in his hometown of Lincoln before arriving in Falls City (population 5,000) in late 1993." Also a documentary from A&E states the same, that the name Brandon Teena was never used by Teena Brandon. Wikipedia states this fact with "born Teena Renae Brandon in Lincoln, Nebraska, and known simply as Brandon"

Yes, as the editor that researched the issue and found and provided the cite for the Hohlt piece in Salon, I would agree that there's a 'controversy' over whether Brandon used the last name Teena or not. Two sources say this, and many other sources contradict this. I'd call it a valid controversy, but far from 'proof' that he didn't use 'Teena' as a last name. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. Has anyone found any cite from family members who have qualified what name was actually used? The proof this name needs is from a true source and not just randon articles based on guess work and internet hearsay. Any ideas? User:Rocky

We cannot have a note that weasels on the issue. If we want to note that Jarrod Hohlt wrote in Salon that he was never called "Brandon Teena" during his life, then fine, note that. But I am definitely inclined to think this is a Gdansk/Danzig thing (what something or somebody used to be called is much less pertinent than what they are commonly known as now). I also don't think there's any great "controversy". The documentary that the film was based on was called "The Brandon Teena Story", he is referred to as Brandon Teena in the GLBT encyclopaedia, and quite widely under that name. We note his birthname and that he was commonly known only as Brandon, so I don't feel we are giving an inaccurate presentation of the facts. Grace Note 06:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems a bit weird to call him by a name he never called himself, but I suspect the Movie had an influence on that. I am not sure how to judge whether one form or the other is more popular without original research. So, I think a cite would be good. --Blue Tie 07:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that three changes for you on one subject line, Grace Notes?

proposed change to: Childhood

The article says Brandon was the victim of sexual assult when a child, but wouldn't molestation be a better word for what happened? (Rocky) —The preceding User:Rocky comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

This might help clear up your confusion. Grace Note 06:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If sexual assault is a large group of behaviors as your definition shows, and this behavior was one of those (Child sexual abuse) but not all of them, then it would be better to make it more specific, if possible. --Blue Tie 07:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It may be better to call it sexual abuse, not assualt. Assualt makes it seem like it was a single incedent. But in actuallity it was repeated.

Her greatest fear, according to acquaintances, was to be touched sexually by a man, and she was especially afraid of being raped. In fact, one male relative had exposed her to repeated sexual abuse, so her male appearance was as much a disguise as a guise. taken from www.crimelibrary.com