Talk:Battle of New Orleans/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

questionable casualty claim

"British casualties from December 25, 1814, to January 26, 1815 were 49 killed, 87 wounded, and 4 missing."

Although provided with a citation, this sentence can't be right, unless we assume that the British suffered the vast majority of their casualties on Lake Borgne or in the Dec 23 night battle while suffering very few losses on January 8. Do we really believe the British suffered 2000 casualties on Dec 23 and only a few dozen on January 8? If so, then Dec 23 is the real date of the battle. Tupelo the typo fixer (talk) 11:14, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

The Battle of New Orleans was fought on January 8th and that was where the British suffered 2,000 killed, wounded, or captured. I've checked five different sources. Feel free to make any changes needed to bring the article back in line.Tirronan (talk) 15:21, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

The American casualty count seems out of wack. According to the US Army's history arm at the actual battle, the count is 13 dead, 30 wounded, and 19 missed or captured. The result box has this as a far inflated figure. Those figures seem to be coming from James, which is hardly a reliable source. This is going to have to be looked into. Here is the link so I can be fact-checked. https://history.army.mil/news/2015/150100a_newOrleans.html Tirronan (talk) 06:28, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

I believe both the British and American casualties in the infobox are soley for the January 8th assault, the info box used to include all of the casualties from December 25th to January 26th, but some lunkhead removed them and the old painting and replaced them with soley the information for the Battle on the 8th. Actual American fatalities from December 25th to January 26th were close to 50 killed, while British fatalities were upwards of 350. History Man1812 (talk) 18:23, 5 November 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812

There should not be issues with identifying British fatalities during the War of 1812. As part of the bicentenary, the primary source documents, pay musters, were consulted. Lists of men who died and their associated units were transcribed. Whilst the original site does not appear to be maintained, the information is available to anyone with a FindMyPast subscription. Was anything similar undertaken for US forces at the time of the bicentennial? Keith H99 (talk) 12:44, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I could have worded that better. There were casualty returns in the WO 25 series that were being transcribed for the bicentenary. The infantry pay records in the WO 12 series would record any fatatilies. These latter records were made available for the time period 1812 to 1817 via Ancestry from 2016 onwards. The New Orleans casualties for the time period December 23 to January 26 Casualty returns within "No. 16991". The London Gazette. March 9, 1815. pp. 443–446.. By utilising the two resources mentioned previously, it should be possible to identify each casualty.

It would appear something similar could be done for US Forces, if you have access to Family Search's resources.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/US_War_of_1812_Casualty_Records

I would have expected a casualty return from General Jackson to have been republished in Niles's Register or similar, for both the battle and the month of hostilities. Keith H99 (talk) 16:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

It would appear that the following had been recorded in prior years. 'British casualties for the entire campaign totaled 2,459 with 386 killed, 1,521 wounded, and 552 missing. American casualties for the entire campaign totaled 333 with 55 killed, 185 wounded, and 93 missing. Source: James, p. 563.' James's figures would need comparing against the London Gazette for the British, and there must be some reliable sources to prove or disprove his figures for Jackson's forces, rather than a website. I don't figure how this is so wildly different to the figures in the initial post of this section. Keith H99 (talk) 20:06, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

As for the campaign figures, they seem to be the stated total at the end of the four casualty reports that have been added together, correctly or not.
Return of Casualties in Action with the Enemy near New Orleans, on the 23d and 24th December 1814
Total— 4 captains, .1 lieutenant, 7 Serjeants, 1 drummer, 33 rank and file, killed;
1 lieutenant-colonel, 1 major, 2 captains, 8 lieutenants, 10 Serjeants, 4 drummers, 141 rank and file, wounded ;
1 major, 1 lieutenant, 1 ensign, 3 Serjeants, 58 rank and file, missing
[46+167+64]
Return of Casualties between the 25th and 31st December 1814.
Total—1 captain, 1 drummer, 14 rank and file, killed ;
1 lieutenant, 2 ensigns, 1 serjeant, 34 rank and file, wounded;
2 rank and file missing.
[16+38+2]
Return of Casualties between the 1st and 5th January 1815.
Total—3 lieutenants, 2 Serjeants, 27 rank and file, killed;
4 lieutenants, 40 rank and file, wounded ;
2 rank and file missing.
[32+44+2]
Return of Casualties on the 8th January 1815.
Total—1 major-general, 1 lieutenaut-colo- nel, 2 majors, 5 captains, 2 lieutenants, 2 ensigns, 11 Serjeants, 1 drummer, 266 rank and file, killed;
2 major-generals, 3 lieutenant-colonels, 2 majors, 18 captains, 38 lieutenants, 9 ensigns, 1 staff, 54 Serjeants, 9 drummers, 1126 rank and file, wounded ;
3 captains, 12 lieutenants, 13 serjeants, 4 drummers, 452 rank and file missing.
[290+1260+484 + 1 major-general killed + 2 major-generals wounded]
All four reports can be found in the London Gazette and elsewhere Keith H99 (talk) 16:42, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

reformatted Keith H99 (talk) 16:44, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Fifth report for 9th January to 26 January 1815 contains one killed and five wounded.Keith H99 (talk) 17:23, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

James seems to be convinced there were 290 deaths on 8 January, which would explain his count being out by 1. The following from a book on Washington, funnily enough, by Anthony S Pitch, published in 2013

By their own account, British losses numbered 2,037 - with 291 killed, 484 missing, and 1,262 wounded. The victors also held some 500 prisoners, many with mortal wounds, and an impressive file of about a thousand captured weapons.Keith H99 (talk) 17:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

To add to the confusion, it doesn't help that Remini is in print whereby he declares that 484 men were 'taken prisoner', instead of using the correct terminology. Why let the facts get in the way of a good story?Keith H99 (talk) 17:58, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Originally posted in wrong place, now repositioned.Keith H99 (talk) 18:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

There's a slightly different figure from primary sources to what is on the website. I am seeing 13 dead, 39 wounded (versus 30), and 19 missed or captured. One of the primary sources is able to split this into right bank and left bank casualties. The spadework was done by Jerome Greene, consulting the papers of Jackson and Tatum. Keith H99 (talk) 19:49, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

American casualty figures are in James too, and are based on a primary source document reproduced on page 563. This is even more insightful as it breaks down the casualties by unit:

APPENDIX. No. 103.

Report of the killed, wounded, and missing of the army under the command of major-general Andrew Jackson in the action of the 8th of January, 1815.

Killed ;— Artillery, navy, and volunteers at batteries, 3 privates; 7th United States' infantry, 1 serjeant[sic], 1 corporal; general Coffee's brigade, 1 private; Carroll's division, 1 Serjeant, 5 privates; Kentucky militia, 1 private; majors Lacoste's and Dacquin's volunteers of colour[sic], 1 private; General Morgan's militia, 1 private.

Total killed — 13.

Wounded; — Artillery, &c. 1 private; 7th United States' infantry, 1 private; general Carroll's division, 1 ensign, 1 serjeant[sic], 6 privates; Kentucky militia, 1 adjutant, 1 corporal, and 10 privates; volunteers of colour[sic], 1 ensign, 5 serjeants[sic], 1 corporal, 8 privates; general Morgan's militia, 2 serjeants[sic], 2 privates.

Total wounded — 39.

Missing ;— Kentucky militia, 4 privates; Morgan's militia, 15 privates.

Total— 19.

Total killed, wounded, and missing, this day — 71.

Note — Of the killed, wounded, and missing, on this day, but 6 killed, and 7 wounded, in the action on the east bank of the river, the residue in a sortie after the action, and in the action on the west bank.

Recapitulation.

Total killed, 55; wounded, 185; missing, 93  : grand total, 333.

Truly reported from those on file in this office.

ROBERT BUTLER.

To further confuse matters, the 13 + 39 + 19 is in a reprint of a letter sent on January 19th, and the 39 is recorded as a 30. Quite how the mis-transcription came about, who knows? Keith H99 (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Below is the first part of the casualty report, which William James had omitted.

'Action of December 23d, 1814

Killed. - Artilleryman 1; 7th U. S. Infantry, 1 lieutenant, (McClellan), 1 sergeant, 1 corporal, 4 privates; 44th U. S. Infantry 7 privates; general Coffee's brigade volunteer mounted gun men, 1 lieutenant colonel (Lauderdale), 1 captain (Pace), 1 lieutenant (Samuel Brook), 2 sergeants, 4 privates. - Total killed 24.

Wounded. - General staff, 1 colonel (colonel Piatt); 7th U. S. Infantry, 1 captain (A. A. White), 1 ensign, 1 sergeant, 2 corporals, 19 privates; general Coffee's brigade, 1 colonel, 2 lieutenant colonels, 1 captain, 2 lieutenants, 1 quarter master sergeant, 3 sergeants, 2 corporals, 1 musician, 30 privates; New Orleans volunteer corps, 1 captain, 2 sergeants, 7 privates; volunteers of color, 1 adjutant and 6 privates. - Total wounded 115.

Missing. - General Coffee's brigade, 1 major, 2 captains, 3 lieutenants, 1 quarter master, 3 ensigns or cornets, 4 sergeants, 1 corporal, 2 musicians, 57 privates. - Total missing 74.

Total killed, wounded and missing on the 23d - 213

Action of December 28, 1814

Killed. - General Coffee's brigade, 1 private; New Orleans volunteer company, 1 private; general Carroll's division of Tennessee militia, 1 colonel (Henderson), 1 sergeant, 5 privates. - Total 7

Wounded - Marines, 1 major (Carmick); New Orleans volunteer company, 3 privates; general Carroll's division, 1 lieutenant, 3 privates. - Total wounded 8.

Missing. - None.

Total killed, wounded and missing on this day, 15.

Action of the 1st January, 1815

Killed. - Artillery, navy and volunteers of batteries, 8 privateers; 44th U. S. Infantry 1 private; General Coffee's brigade, 1 sergeant; general Carroll's division, 1 private. - Total 11.

Wounded. - Artillery, navy and volunteers of batteries, 8; 7th U. S. Infantry, 1 private; 44th U. S. Infantry 3; Coffee's brigade, 2; New Orleans volunteers of color, 1 lieutenant, 1 sergeant, 1 private. - total 23.

Missing. - None

Total killed, wounded and missing this day, 34.

ACTION ON BOTH SIDES OF THE RIVER

8th January 1815' Keith H99 (talk) 12:06, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

The above is from a report

from Colonel Robert Butler, Adjutant General's Office New Orleans

to Brigadier General D. Parker, Inspector and Adjutant General, Washington

dated January 16, 1815

It was reproduced in its entirety on page 385 of Niles Register published Saturday, February 18, 1815 Keith H99 (talk) 17:27, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

'Head-quarters, 7th Military district

Adjutant-general's office, Jackson's lines

below [New] Orleans, January 16th 1815.

Sir

I have the honor herewith to enclose for the information of the war department, a report of the killed, wounded and missing of the army under the command of major general Jackson in the different actions with the enemy since their landing.

I have the honor to be, very respectfully your obedient servant.

[Colonel] ROBERT BUTLER, Adj.gen

[To] Brigadier-general D. Parker, Adj. and Inspr general, Washington' Keith H99 (talk) 11:18, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

US casualty data is available via a secondary source compiled 1850 through 1851, and is available via Ancestry. The compiler/editor is Joseph H Eaton, and the document title is: Returns of Killed and Wounded in Battles or Engagements with Indians and British and Mexican Troops, 1790–1848. The web address is https://www.ancestry.ca/search/collections/3652/ Keith H99 (talk) 23:40, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

That first quote is muddled. 24 killed, 115 wounded, and 74 missing relates to the night battle and is quoted from Quimby, p. 850. I propose going ahead and making the change to state 39 wounded, as this and not 30, keeps appearing. It is probably worth mentioning that when you look at casualties solely for the left bank, it almost halves the total casualties. Keith H99 (talk) 21:57, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

A quote from the article

The Battle of New Orleans was remarkable both for its apparent brevity and its casualties, though some numbers are in dispute and contradict the official statistics

Smith and Welsh are quoted, but their "claimed" figures seem to tally with William James's figures based on primary source documentation, which makes that part of the statement misleading. After that, there is to my mind some nationalistic contributor who knows that 484 men played dead, the exact figure of the men taken prisoner. Whilst I don't have a great deal of faith in some conspiracy theory redneck posting on the internet like a latter-day fact bereft Arsène Latour, has there been any work undertaken by academics to determine how many died of wounds in the subsequent days? Were they indeed airbrushed out of the casualty report covering the time period from January 9 to January 26? Given that the British infantry casualty returns (archive reference WO 25) were transcribed for the bicentenary, and the pay & muster sheets for the infantry (archive reference WO 12) were digitised in 2016, this would be ripe for further investigation. Anyone with access to the two subscription sites could access it anywhere in the world. Keith H99 (talk) 12:59, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I do not see any merit in the following POV which does not properly cite its assertions. (The same contributor used information about the British attack on December 14 at Lake Borgne as evidence of a second British attack against New Orleans in January 1815, it being an amphibious operation.)

Around 484 British soldiers had pretended to be dead; they rose up and surrendered to the Americans when the shooting stopped.[1.Dubious] The standard protocol of the British Army during the nineteenth century was to only include in the killed column the soldiers who died during the battle. Soldiers who died of wounds the following day or following week were not considered "killed" in the British casualties list. They were counted as "wounded" only.[2. citation needed] Colonel Arthur P. Hayne and Adjutant General Robert Butler were ordered by Jackson to count the British casualties immediately after the battle.[3.Dubious] On January 13 they both reported to Jackson that around 700 British troops were killed, and this was including British soldiers who died of wounds that were treated by the Americans. Many British officers[4. nonspecific] who were counted as "wounded" in the official British casualties list succumbed to their injuries in the days after the battle as confirmed by written accounts of the battle by other British officers.

1. In most instances, wounded men left behind are the most likely to get taken prisoner, rather than uninjured men. This piece of fantasy is contradicted by Hayne's report to Jackson. The big question is of all the missing men, how many survived and were repatriated, versus the remainder missing in action presumed killed? How convenient that the specific number of able bodied cowards who surrendered is numerically the same as the 484 missing in action.

2. Hardly a conspiracy, and clearly the opinion of someone who has no experience with data snapshots. Is there evidence of other combatant nations following a different methodology? It would make sense that most of the fatally wounded were left behind following the retreat from the battlefield, and feature as "missing" rather than wounded. As to the question of men who subsequently died of wounds, given this information can be researched anywhere in the world, it does not appear to have been of material importance enough for any historian to research it, and publish their findings.

3. A secondary source states that there is consensus that it was the British who buried most of their dead. I don't imagine Jackson's priority at this point in time was casualty analysis, and I doubt the British would have agreed to the presence of two of Jackson's staff officers corpse counting. Analysis of casualties is different to saying 'ordered by Jackson to count the British casualties immediately after the battle'. Please provide evidence that this methodology was in place.

4. Weasel words, not substantiated by a source. Keith H99 (talk) 13:36, 10 December 2021 (UTC) Reformatted with spacings Keith H99 (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Baratarians serving as "marines"

There is mention of Baratarians serving as "marines" at Fort St Philip by Wilburt Brown. One company was there, out of a total of four companies. I have not seen this elsewhere in primary or secondary sources. Has this been proven or disproven? I presume they were artillerists as opposed to infantry? Keith H99 (talk) 16:29, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

In the continued absence of evidence to back it up, the assertion has been removed. Keith H99 (talk) 16:35, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Distinguished service as mentioned in dispatches

I am of the opinion this section is untruthful. The United States Marine Corps mentioned their presence, which I believe was 58 men out of 5,700, on their own website in 2017, and now the link has gone. None of the other sources are contemporary to 1815. How does this provide a meaningful element to the article? These are not instances of being mentioned in the despatches of Jackson, Patterson or their ilk in the aftermath of the battle. Keith H99 (talk) 16:54, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

As I recall, this section was enlarged by purging various personalities from throughout the article and relegating their names to it, largely reducing their roles to the recorded remarks, while truncating the fuller story of the battle. There was a lot of chopping of the article. Infobox commanders and leaders was greatly reduced around then, which I see is being built up again. Keep up the good work! Lindenfall (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

New Orleans - British withdrawal

@Nimuda (talk · contribs)

Hello, I put the tag there because it is dubious to base an event in January upon a document signed on another continent the prior month. Rather than deleting the comment, it would make sense to find a better source, and to replace the tag and the Treaty of Ghent. Please do feel free to add a better source, ideally from a book published by a historian, rather than someone's self-published website.Keith H99 (talk) 17:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 January 2020 and 8 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mister-Doctor-Professor-APC.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 5 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MysticStrike00 (article contribs).

Repositioned for consistency Keith H99 (talk) 10:21, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Redirection

Nevermind, I found the redirection 2001:569:52CD:F900:D41C:59C3:D106:1EFE (talk) 00:54, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

This is the link to the song The Battle of New Orleans Keith H99 (talk) 19:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Banks: east, west, left, right

Should be consistent. In NOLA, currently, West Bank is Algiers, etc on side of MS river that is connected to the western USA and would be called right bank by the style of a boat going with the flow of the river. Chalmette and the New Orleans French Quarter, etc are on the East Bank. 2600:8807:4062:C000:F1FB:85FC:E247:CF1D (talk) 00:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

General Keane awaiting the arrival of reinforcements

For the past ten years or so, there have been references to "Thomas". Does anyone know what this is?

Keane decided to encamp at Lacoste's Plantation[36] and wait for the arrival of reinforcements. 37 Thomas, p. 61.

It appears to be a thesis: Thomas, Gregory M. (2005). The Battle of New Orleans. Master of Arts dissertation, Louisiana State University

Can anyone suggest a source to use, which documents Keane awaiting the arrival of reinforcements? I am loath to start a new topic, as it will prematurely hive off part of the talk page to the archive. Keith H99 (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

His dissertation rephrased Remini, so have used Remini as the source. Keith H99 (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

At this point General Keane made one of the most fateful decisions of the campaign. Catching up with Colonel Thornton's force near the Villeré Plantation, Keane instructed him to wait for the second wave of British forces before moving against the city. Thornton urged Keane to let him proceed because, he argued, the Americans had been caught out of position and the city was defenseless - which was true. But Keane was worried about Jackson's strength, reportedly between 15,000 and 20,000 men, so he remained firm and the British halted. His caution allowed Jackson and the Americans to recover from their initial surprise and take hasty countermeasures.19

19 Remini, Andrew Jackson, pp. 259-262. Keith H99 (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)