Talk:Battle of Mogadishu (1993)/Archive 4

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This is a battle? =

A battle is fought between two combatants. This horror was the unfortunate pitting of regular military forces against savages who use women and chhhhhhhhhhildren as human shields.

• We're not here to judge. A combatant is someone who fights. Just because they're "savages" doesn't mean that they're not fighting.70.23.70.244 02:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

• Please - let's leave the eurocentric terminology at home. Deciding upon whom to confer the title "savage" is a moot point. I personally find the armed incursion of any otherwise sovereign nation savage-like myself. Erikkukun 04:24, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• So, several warlord regimes which are in the middle of a civil war for control of the country, responsible for hijacking food relief convoys (and thus helping the spread of famine that their civil war initiated), and the apparent killing and skinning of Pakistani troops before the Habr Gidr incident... and yet we're sensitive to any "armed incursion" of Coalition Forces, there to bring order and relief (as opposed to the chaos, looting, and starvation that the aforementioned clans helped start)...

The Habr Gidr incident was a bad move on the U.S.'s part, but let's face it: Any conjecture about the Habr Gidr clan supposedly having peace talks that day, and toying with the idea of their ousting Aidid, seems somewhat far-fetched. (And for the record, I didn't see any citations for that little blurb in the main article).

What we have, factually, is their approval of Aidid up to that point, and in lieu of this their complicity with the ambushing and skinning of U.N./Pakistani soldiers days previous. kh123 —Preceding comment was added at 08:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing Euro-centric about the term "savage". It is however a subjective term which should be avoided in Wikipedia.

As it happens, I believe that any "disciplined" military force whose soldiers exult in "hosing down" civilians with automatic cannon, and bomb public meetings, is worse than undisciplined militia.JohnC (talk) 10:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

agreed. this is my lai all over again. white racist special forces vs. "savages" ("savages" just like the anon racist white asshole said). Lucky dog (talk) 06:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Lucky dog Can you provide a cite for your 'racist' claim? I would be interested to understand why you would add that label to soldiers (rather than a commenter) who in the strictest sense were doing their jobs. You may certainly question the mission, but in the majority of writing I have read, the most common reason for "joe' to fight is to protect their compatriots. Please try to restrain these types of claims, if you could. Further, please explain how you are able to conflate My Lai with Mog. A massacre of unarmed civilians in a remote ville, as opposed to an heavily (I use heavily due to the profuse use of RPG's) armed response to what should have been a quiet takedown of a house do not seem to add up, you see. Foamking (talk) 04:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

JohnC Cite 'hosing down' if you would be so kind. In the book produced by Mark Bowden, I recall WO Keith Jones aircraft spent a good deal of the evening hours making gun runs throughout the city, trying to keep the oppo forces from overrunning TFR. I have read a good bit of the source material, and while an amazing amount of ordnance was expended, I strangely do not recall an scenes of 'exultation' although I can recall several scenes of horror, shock, and revulsion. If you use the cinematic film as your basis, I fear you will be drawing some skewed conclusions. The most common response I have noted was gratitude to have survived against the odds, especially what appeared to be extremely poor contingency planning based on the blown takedown. I welcome your comments, as I would greatly like to see a fuller examination of the Somali part of the battle. Bowden wasn't able to cover it all that well, with particular regard given to lower level fighters, and was unable to secure any revealing interviews with the command element of the Somali Forces. Foamking (talk) 04:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

At what point did they even use bombs?

I note that 'Les Sauvages' was indeed a term applied to the indigenous population and it appears to have entered usage as an inter-clan perjorative, but it use was extended in the modern period to apply to those inhabitants who partook of the khat, quat, tchat as it apparently affected their behavior in a negative way. The first reference I can find quickly is a short comment in a book 'All the Trouble in The World' P.J. O'Rourke - Atlantic Monthly Press, 1995. Any extension of this comment is only for my own edification, and would only tangentially reflect on the subject matter, although I understand this drug use to have been a problem during and after the action. Foamking (talk) 04:44, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Medals

Wouldn't every deceased soldier (and in fact most of the wounded ones) receive the Purple Heart? The current table only lists one. JRWalko 01:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

This is likely, as: "The Purple Heart is a United States military decoration awarded in the name of the President to those who have been wounded or killed while serving on or after April 5, 1917 with the U.S. military. " from Purple Heart. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.62.41 (talk) 18:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

The list appears to be quite incomplete. One other source indicates "PFC James Martin was awarded the Bronze Star as well as the Purple Heart and the Valerous Unit Award", for example. http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/ask/ask13.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.220.85 (talk) 20:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Super Six Four Crew Chiefs

I've seen this in a lot of other places but it doesn't make sense to me. Both Thomas Field and William Cleveland are listed as the Crew Chief of 6-4. I would think there would only be one crew chief per bird.71.63.82.163 (talk) 18:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)Anon

No, each bird has two crew chiefs. It is a little paradoxical but the term crew chief does not mean the head of the crew. A crew chief is simply one of the gunners on the UH-60s. 19:05, 20 April 2009 K-Rog

Somalian casualties

Somali casualties :312 killed , 814 wounded according to red cross hospitals in mogadishu 4 weeks after the battle —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.132.48.229 (talk) 05:40, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

I found same numbers reported in Rick Atkinson, Night of a Thousand Casualties, Washington Post, 31 January 1994, A01 [1], but only reported by "Somali leaders". [2] reports same numbers given in Susan Rosegrant and Michael D. Watkins, A Seamless Transition: United States and United Nations Operations in Somalia 1992-1993 (B) (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University, 1996), 12-16, maybe they give more details about their own sources. Keep in mind :

1. "Somalian leaders" may be in the truth, or having not accuractely estimated their casualties, or having given disinformation as well.
2. I suppose that "Somali leaders" are only Habr Gadir/SNA leaders, and the casualties are those of their own militia(s). BHD and other sources show that many other Somali fighted US in the battle, so their casualties are probably higher (500 - 1000 being usualy reported, estimated after hospital reports and other sources)
3. doesn't count civilian dead. Rob1bureau 13:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The article's table indicates that at least 3,000 Somalis were killed and cites A Defining Battle, Philadelphia Inquirer 16 November 1997 [3]. But this article seems to indicate that only 350 to 500 Somalis were killed by US estimates. Should this be corrected? Rbouchoux 19:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

After some search in the archives, Parkway33 made modifications on 04:13, 9 October 2007. I think it's vandalism, don't you ? Rob1bureau 20:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Number of U.S. injured in the battle

The article says three times (introduction, infobox and "Black Hawk Down" section) that 73 US servicemen were injured, but in "Operation Gothic Serpent" part, 79 wonded are reported.

By the way, the main problem is that here ar two main numbers usually quoted, 73 and 84. USSOCOM 20th anniversary history give very accurate numbers such as : "A total of 16 members of TF RANGER were killed on 3-4 October and 83 wounded (the 10th Mountain Division suffered 22 wounded and two killed)." I believe we can use that numbers. Rob1bureau 23:30, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Weapons used by Delta operators in the battle

Many people ask about that , well they used M733/commando carbine and M723/M16A2 carbine , except for Shughart who used an M14 . --Max Mayr 08:13, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Shughart was not the only to use a M14. Super 61 and 62 provided sniper cover, and carried 4 Delta snipers each. These snipers used M14, Colt carbines, and Dan Busch used a SAW. He had used it on the Osman Atto snatch op in september also. Rob1bureau (talk) 13:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Some of the D-boys carried CAR-15.-dirtdiver321 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dirtdiver321 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Biography

Im starting a biography to all americans who died in this battle if thats ok.--Max Mayr 09:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The list of casualties has to go

As somebody said already, it reads too much like a memorial for american soldiers what with the description of their heroic deaths and the medals they won (and now quite a few of them are getting their own articles), while the somalis only get a number and a description of the battle provided by an american ambassador... Seems very one sided to me, just like the movie. Besides, articles should only list casualties by name if they're notable, for exemple if a general had been killed or some other important figure. I don't mean to be disrecpectful to men that died defending their fellow soldiers but surely there must have been heroes on the home team too not to mention on countless other battles.. (imagine if we tried to list WW2 casualties by name..) Perhaps a separate article/list can be created as Pete sugested, but this is definetly not the place. RIP-Acer 21:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The reason why the list of casualties is one-sided is only because documentation on the Somalian side is either non-existant or unknown by Western sources. It's not lopsided by design. It should be preserved. EvilCouch 11:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Why wasn't the Hospital unit mentioned in this article?

They are responsible for the recovery of the wounded soldiers. Also it is where CWO Michael Durant was taken after he was rescued. The name of the Hospital unit was the 46TH MTF, from Ft. Devans MA. Props to them for doing an outstanding job. Please reccognize those after the battle was fought. Thank you all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.3.192.201 (talk) 15:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The first casualty of war is the truth

According to US accounts of the battle 700 SNA militia were killed during the battle as well as 1000 wounded. I believe that Red Cross and Médecins Sans Frontières officials are more reliable than US military sources, after all it is they who witnessed the suffering of hundreds of Somalis - mainly women and children - piled into hospitals that in some cases had no plasma or other supplies to treat them as was reported at the time. Moreover, the victors are often known inflate the enemy's casualties. Examples. Battle of Goose Green (the British estimated 250 dead Argentineans when only 47-55 had been killed in the battle) and the Battle of Long Tan (The Australians estimated 500-800 Vietnamese dead and 1000 wounded out of 700 Vietnamese attackers; according to a Sydney Morning Herald report of the battle 30 of the 700-strong Vietnamese Regiment were killed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstcasualtyofwar (talk • contribs) 02:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Kguirnela & Rob1bureau!!!why did you remove the following edits made by me???

1- The Somali National Alliance in a Frontline documentary on American television acknowledged only 133 militia killed in the whole battle. [4]

2- With a growing number of wounded needing shelter, the Rangers occupied several hearby houses taking the residents prisoner. The local Somali SNA commander, Colonel Sharif Hassan Giumale had decided he would call for a mortar bombardment of the houses rather than lose men in house to house fighting. The information that civilians were being held captive changed his plans. [5]

3- Repeated attempts by the Somalis to mass forces and overrun the American positions in a series of firefights near the crash sites, were neutralized by aggressive small arms fire and by strafing and rocket attacks from U.S. helicopter gunships. The Somali militia casualties were reported as 700 killed and about 1000 wounded. However, an English-speaking eyewitness to the battle says the recovery parties for the SNA dead in the vicinity of the crash sites would indicate fewer than 60. [6]

As far as I am concerned (I deny have any relation with Kguirnela), anyone can check the history of the page and see the last revision I made : [7]. I changed that edit made by Parkway33 on 16 Oct. 07. So I don't understand why you charge me to have vandalised your edits. In a general way, I don't think to be a John Wayne-type guy (especially I reduced the number of Somalian killed, not increased).

If you are talking about another of my edits, I am ready to calmly argue about it.

PS: please don't forget to sign your messages, I didn't know who had send me one on my talk page. Rob1bureau 12:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

POV concerns about militia casualties

This Wikipedia page is a homage to the prowess of the American soldier so I have included bits of the Somali version of events that people like Kguirnela & Rob1bureau will no doubt censor, I hope people out there can keep an eye out on the pro-American tellers of war fables. I don't mean to disrespect the American Ranger and Delta troops that proved their valour in combat that day but let's not exaggerate and come up with figures of 700+ SNA militia dead and 1,000 wounded. There is no need to be ashamed of having J U S T killed 133 SNA militia (remember 74 of them had recieved special forces training in foreign camps, like Libya). I gather that at least double that number (a total of SNA 300) were wounded and were crippled for life, which is an awful price to pay to prove your valour in front of your mates also. To crow about thousands of Somali civilians killed is so sad. Even the official Red Cross figures of approximately 200 civilians dead and hundreds wounded is sickening and an enormous figure for a third world country to cope with. How the hell could the hospitals in Mogadishu (or even the whole of Somalia) cope with 3,000 to 8,000 wounded???!!!

Source No. 1- The International Committee of the Red Cross estimated 200 Somali (civilian) killed and several hundred wounded in the fighting. [8]

Source No. 2- Aideed claims that 315 (civilians and militia) were killed and 812 wounded. [9]

Source No. 3- Captain Haad, in an interview on American public television, says 133 of the SNA militia were killed. [10]

Source No. 4- An English-speaking eyewitness to the battle says the recovery parties for the SNA dead in the vicinity of the Black Hawk helicopter crash sites would indicate fewer than 60 as opposed to an American estimate of 700 Somali militia killed in the vicinity of the Olympic Hotel (the American target area). [11] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firstcasualtyofwar (talk • contribs) 10:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Adjusted the section title. There is absolutely no reason for section names to be ridiculously long run-on sentences. As far as the casualty reports from the militia, don't forget that both sides of conflicts can use propaganda. If you're not taking the US or UN reports at face value, then you shouldn't be taking Aideed or Haad's reports at face value. EvilCouch 02:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

More sources

• The full two-part article by Atkinson : [12] (Word doc.) (SuaSponte has only the second part, "night of thousand casualties"). Gives a lot of information about the SNA side.
• a good article about the CIA in support of Task Force Ranger [13]. I think that it is useful because intelligence was critical for TFR operations.
• A 2000 speech by Matt Eversmann with RAND corporation : [14] (PDF)

Hope it helps. Rob1bureau (talk) 18:29, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

About books, Jeff Struecker wrote The road to unafraid and MSG Paul Howe Leadership and Training For the Fight: A Few Thoughts On Leadership and Training From a Former Special Operations Soldier. Rob1bureau (talk) 21:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

U.S. bodies

I'm just wondering, what happened to the bodies of the fallen U.S. soldiers? Were they ever returned home?Germanlink93 (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

According to Bowden's Black Hawk Down book, Somalis returned all bodies to the US. I guess that it was a sine qua non condition imposed by the US to Aidid'd clan before any talk, and the clan took care of recovering all bodies from all other groups who had them (only my 2 cents for the last sentence). All bodies were not returned at the same time - Shugart's was the last. Rob1bureau (talk) 19:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank youGermanlink93 (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all US bodies were eventually returned to US forces at the airfield. I interviewed in December 1993, a US Army CID specialist who had been on the VIP protection detail for senior US officials during October 1993. He expressed disgust at the disrespect shown to the bodies by the Somali people. According to him, all the US bodies had been intentionally mutilated and body parts removed. (talk) 14:16, 5 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Toler (talk • contribs)

Merger Proposal

After the AfD of James Smith, the closing admin (And several of the contributors) suggested a merge might be a good idea, so, I am proposing we merge James Jamie Smith into this as he derives his notability from the movie of this battle and alone his notability seems to be questioned by some. There is also the issue that his article is limited due to his notability being from a single event and will never grow that much due to the lack of notability of the rest of his life.Narson (talk) 18:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. It would make sense to place some of his entry in the entry for the film, some here, and remove the rest. Steve Schonberger (talk) 14:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

"Lost Convoy"

The list of US casualties lists several as "Killed on the Lost Convoy". However, this is the only place in the article where the phrase 'Lost Convoy' appears.

Perhaps this should be rectified in some manner? -- g026r (talk) 20:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

SEAL Team Six participation to TF Ranger

A non-logged guy has recently added some bitd about SEAL Team Six participation to TF Ranger and the battle. According to [15], they were at least 5 deployed : then Captain Eric T. Olson, now USSOCOM commander, and the four quoted in Bowden's book Richard A. Kaiser, John G. Gay, Homer L. Nearpass and Howard E. Wasdin, who were in the first ground convoy. Has anyone a source about how many SEALs were deployed ? (a guy said it was a 12 man detachment on BHD website [16]). Rob1bureau (talk) 18:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It would probably have been a group of 4 SEALs (plus Olson) as that is the usual SEAL team size. Also, does anyone know what roles the four SEALs played during the battle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.33.174 (talk) 06:09, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I have a copy of Bowden's book, and it specifically said a team four SEALs twice. As far as I remember, the SEALs evacuated Blackburn back to base and took part in the Lost Convoy. Dibol (talk) 06:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Biased

WHy does this article devote an entire page to listing the American casualties and their awarded medals like they are some kind of heroes? Where are the names of the brave Somali's that died fighting against a superior enemy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.87.192.6 (talk) 18:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The answer is simple. There is no such thing as a 'brave somali'. They are savage cowards who use women and children as human shields. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.67.104.4 (talk) 15:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The reason why the american soldiers' names are mentioned is because these heroes gave their lives to fight someone elses war.

Thats the reason he made the article. The men who gave their lives are heroes, that is true; but there were men on the Somali Side as well. If anyone can give information that can be confirmed by a reliable source about the Somali Casualties, that would be fair.Oldking5 (talk) 23:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Lots of information that can be confirmed by a reliable source about Somali casualties are quoted in this page. See especially

• Talk:Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#Somalian_casualties
• Talk:Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#Kguirnela_.26_Rob1bureau.21.21.21why_did_you_remove_the_following_edits_made_by_me.3F.3F.3F
• Talk:Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#POV_concerns_about_militia_casualties

Rob1bureau (talk) 21:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

'heros'? let's leave contentious terminology of of this, eh? 'One mans terrorist is another mans freedon fighter' and all that [only in this case, one mans 'hero' is another mans 'mindless killing machine, armed and dangerous, in the wrong place, following a foolhardy plan, loosing off all that amunition in a built-up, populated enviroment while fighting for his life without regard for where their 'misses' end up'] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.43.176 (talk) 15:20, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

"Hero" is not a synonym for any soldier who is killed. If we accept that the Americans killed in Black Hawk Down are all heroes, then we must accept as heroes all those German soldiers who were killed in Saving Private Ryan.JohnC (talk) 10:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Filipino

Some recents edits added a Filipino participation to the 1993 Battle of Mogadishu. Never heard of that. Is it a joke ?Rob1bureau (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Heroes ? According to reports some of the rangers cried like babies when the somlies began shooting back and most of the somalies where killed by us helicopter gunships. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.21.214.42 (talk) 20:02, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Casualties

The True Story of Black Hawk Down[17] documentary says "estimates range from one thousand to over ten thousand killed". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Lack of sources

Just read this article today and at least 5 different source links no longer exist or are active. Just because there's a footnote beside (what I consider to be completly fabricated) words and sentences, doesn't mean anything if the source is not an active link. Please remove immediately, or find sources that are REAL. Thank you. The part about "taking civilians hostage" is totally without merit or source. Now, I'm sure you could find some obscure quote from some somali propagandist that would claim it were true, but as of right now you don't even have THAT. Remove it immediately. I'm ashamed of this articles "truth value" and lack of sources. It's not Wikipedia standards (if those exist anymore). Gendylan35 (talk) 06:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.22.38 (talk) 06:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I added references for footnote 9 and 10. I kept the same kink for footnote 10, http://hornofafrica.ssrc.org/de_Waal3/index2.html, because it is not dead for me. Rob1bureau (talk) 10:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Operation Codename "Irene"

It would be appreciated if anyone could add some descriptions of Operation Codename "Irene" which is seen in the movie Black Hawk Down (film). Sautiller (talk) 10:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It was the launch codeword passed by BG GARRISON to WO DURANT as the release authority to begin the mission. It was not the name of the mission. Ref: Black Hawk Down - Mark Bowden —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foamking (talk • contribs) 04:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

TSgt Tim Wilkinson

Shouldn't Tsgt Wilkinso be mention somewhere in the article. He was a pararescueman that jumped in with the rangers and attemped to save the pilots. He ending up earning the Air Force Cross. http://www.af.mil/history/spotlight.asp?id=123008863

POV and citation issues with "Policy Changes" section

This section has no citations. It also has a clear biased position against President Clinton and the Democratic Party.12.192.94.253 (talk) 20:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Any Baltimorian ready to help ?

I learned that Mark Bowden, the author of the book Black Hawk Down, had donated all the declassified documents he got from US govt to the Loyola College Library in Baltimore. Can someone see if it's possible to copy them and upload scans to make them available on the web please ? Rob1bureau (talk) 11:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)